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Hi guys. Alright I'm not all certain why I'm writing this entry, but I guess I'm more or less looking to get to hear some thoughts on this just to get some different perspective.
Well I guess I'll start out by explaining my current situation a little bit so that you get the context. I'm turning 21 this year, meaning it's been about 2 years now since I finished gymnasium (not sure what the u.s. equivalence is called but w/e). Looking back on the time that has passed since then I'm not really sure what to say, except it feels somewhat meaningless in a way. Unlike most of my friends I didn't start university immediately for two reasons. First I couldn't (still can't) for the life of me figure out what I really wanted to do, a task that still weighs heavily upon me because I am actually more motived to start studying than ever before. Also at that point in time I really felt the need to do something completely different and I guess I wanted to get a sense of what it was like living as an independent adult instead of going straight to university.
Under those circumstances I figured back then that the best thing I could do would be to just start working, trying to get by on my own for a while and travel as much as I could. I moved from my hometown Stockholm to a small town in Norway on impulse a couple of months after finishing school. I already had some friends here and I could get work more easily then at home, so things turned out pretty well. I got to travel a lot last year with what income I had and got to see a couple of cities in USA, as well as tokyo, hong kong and a short visit to Beijing.
Well as you can probably guess from the title Tokyo and Japan is what really caught my eye, and since then I've developed a deeper interest in japanese culture. I'm really not interested in manga/anime or things like that, but I think what attracts me about Japan is just the fact that it is different from anything I've ever experienced and the only way to get to know the country on a deeper level would be by learning the language. I have also been somewhat interested in learning a new language for a while now.
In a way I don't feel good pushing university further ahead, but on the other hand I really don't want to start studying something that doesn't really interest me, and a language could always come in useful later on in life. Student loans for 2 years in a different country are pretty expensive even in sweden, so I'm still debating whether it' worth it even though I'm certain that it's something I really want to do.
So yeah, I've been looking at my options and I'm thinking about just taking one of those 2 year Japanese courses in one of the major cities. Again I'm not sure what I want out of this blog but if anyone has any experience with this sort of thing, I would be interested to hear how you went about doing it, or otherwise just hear your opinions on the idea...
edit: fuck this is a pretty weird post. I wrote down a huge thing in a word document because I felt like getting a sense of where I was atm, and this is more or less a summary. My life is in such disorder right now but I shouldn't go into details. T_T
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Calgary26003 Posts
If your life in is disorder, I'm going to guess that 2 years of debt to gain a useless skill isn't the best of ideas.
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I've taken Japanese for years and I'd like to go to Japan as well. But it just isn't a smart move financially.
Also, from all the classes I've taken at school I can say that learning a language is most effectively done on your own time outside of the classroom.
You can literally learn Japanese over the internet if you had the motivation. You can skype with plenty of willing Japanese native speakers for free and there's a wealth of information on the characters and grammar out there all available to be studied at your own pace.
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Going to school to learn a language makes no sense unless you want to learn it at the deepest and most sophisticated levels, which would probably take way more than 2 years.
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On March 23 2010 06:12 eMbrace wrote:
I've taken Japanese for years and I'd like to go to Japan as well. But it just isn't a smart move financially.
Also, from all the classes I've taken at school I can say that learning a language is most effectively done on your own time outside of the classroom.
You can literally learn Japanese over the internet if you had the motivation. You can skype with plenty of willing Japanese native speakers for free and there's a wealth of information on the characters and grammar out there all available to be studied at your own pace. I think the best way to get to know a language is by just living in the country. That way you're pretty much forced into using it and the learning curve should be so much faster. On the other hand I'm aware that financially it's not really a great decision. :/
On March 23 2010 06:06 Chill wrote:
If your life in is disorder, I'm going to guess that 2 years of debt to gain a useless skill isn't the best of ideas.
Yeah, and I've had similar thoughts myself. But the reason why my life is in disorder stems from my current situation. I'm just overall bored with my life right now, and I want to be doing something that interests me. Can you do things just because you really want to, disregarding losses and "time wasted"? I suck at life decisions. But the experience itself must hold some sort of value.
On March 23 2010 06:18 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Going to school to learn a language makes no sense unless you want to learn it at the deepest and most sophisticated levels, which would probably take way more than 2 years.
I guess but from what I've read these educations are meant to prepare you for university, so when the time arrives I could chose to continue my education in japan, for whatever that's worth.
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Yes, the best way to learn a language is to actually live in that country -- but dropping yourself in there with little knowledge of the language and expecting it to come to you in 2 years is just naive.
And to expect to advance your education all while being in this situation is a bit far fetched. You should more experience under your belt. Deciding that you want to go off and learn a foreign language all of a sudden just doesn't seem right.
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On March 23 2010 06:29 eMbrace wrote:
Yes, the best way to learn a language is to actually live in that country -- but dropping yourself in there with little knowledge of the language and expecting it to come to you in 2 years is just naive.
And to expect to advance your education all while being in this situation is a bit far fetched. You should more experience under your belt. Deciding that you want to go off and learn a foreign language all of a sudden just doesn't seem right.
I know, this probably comes across as extremely naive haha, but I've actually had strong thoughts about this for a couple of months now. I've started taking lessons and I'm thinking about maybe taking a couple of months worth of Japanese fulltime course in preparation. That way I'm not so much throwing myself in there, but yeah it might still be a bit far fetched? What sort of understanding of the language might one realistically have after studying it intensively during 3 years?
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 23 2010 06:21 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 06:06 Chill wrote:
If your life in is disorder, I'm going to guess that 2 years of debt to gain a useless skill isn't the best of ideas. Yeah, and I've had similar thoughts myself. But the reason why my life is in disorder stems from my current situation. I'm just overall bored with my life right now, and I want to be doing something that interests me. Can you do things just because you really want to, disregarding losses and "time wasted"?
Yes, but ignoring any sort of cost/benefit analysis is dumb. It's like people who argue we should sacrifice countless resources to improve the environment of the earth. Clearly there exists some balance point between you being bored, and you incurring 2 years worth of debt.
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On March 23 2010 06:48 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 06:21 hifriend wrote:On March 23 2010 06:06 Chill wrote:
If your life in is disorder, I'm going to guess that 2 years of debt to gain a useless skill isn't the best of ideas. Yeah, and I've had similar thoughts myself. But the reason why my life is in disorder stems from my current situation. I'm just overall bored with my life right now, and I want to be doing something that interests me. Can you do things just because you really want to, disregarding losses and "time wasted"? Yes, but ignoring any sort of cost/benefit analysis is dumb. It's like people who argue we should sacrifice countless resources to improve the environment of the earth. Clearly there exists some balance point between you being bored, and you incurring 2 years worth of debt.
Yep. I realize this all too well and to some degree I almost wish I was the sort of person that could impulsively do it anyway, without overthinking the consequences. So what I'm really debating is whether the long time benefits of knowing an additional languages might be worth the costs anyway.
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I always heard that a degree was worth a lot in Europe, mainly Germany, unlike in the US.
Before going into crazy adventures by yourself you should be well prepared financially, and it usually helps to have a degree when you are looking for a decent job.
Edit: if you wanna learn a new language that brings you great benefits ($$), I advice you to learn Chinese.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 23 2010 06:58 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 06:48 Chill wrote:On March 23 2010 06:21 hifriend wrote:On March 23 2010 06:06 Chill wrote:
If your life in is disorder, I'm going to guess that 2 years of debt to gain a useless skill isn't the best of ideas. Yeah, and I've had similar thoughts myself. But the reason why my life is in disorder stems from my current situation. I'm just overall bored with my life right now, and I want to be doing something that interests me. Can you do things just because you really want to, disregarding losses and "time wasted"? Yes, but ignoring any sort of cost/benefit analysis is dumb. It's like people who argue we should sacrifice countless resources to improve the environment of the earth. Clearly there exists some balance point between you being bored, and you incurring 2 years worth of debt. Yep. I realize this all too well and to some degree I almost wish I was the sort of person that could impulsively do it anyway, without overthinking the consequences. So what I'm really debating is whether the long time benefits of knowing an additional languages might be worth the costs anyway.
They are not. I can say this with unparalleled certainty.
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I went on exchange to Japan a year ago, and took three Japanese courses from the Japanese university while I was in school.
It's actually not that much better to learn Japanese in Japan (if not worse actually, as weird as that might sound) if you do not have the basics covered. If you are already somewhat introduced to a language, then going to the country is a great idea to improve your skills; but getting started in the country is not nearly the same, because teachers in Japan are not necessarily better than the teachers you can find outside when it comes to dealing with foreigners with no fundamentals. What I am saying is, it is easier for you to learn the basic Japanese in English than in Japanese; you need a starting point, a foundation before going.
You will not benefit from the environment through osmosis when you have absolutely not idea what is going on.
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Depends how well you want to learn the language and how serious you are about it.
If you want to be even close to native speaker status for Japanese, then you have to live there. The speed, dialect, emphasis on accents cannot really be taught unless you're exposed to it in the context of living there.
On the other hand, someone else did mention you can learn Japanese quite well by yourself if you wanted. This is true, but its a lot of work. You'll have to make a conscious decision to want to get better and go out of your way to improve. Studies are one thing, and actual speaking and listening experience is another. Speaking with a person on skype twice a week can help you, but it won't be as effective as speaking and hearing Japanese everyday.
Money wise, getting a Job for someone who's not Japanese is hell from what I've heard. You can probably ask someone else about that though.
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On March 23 2010 07:13 Cambium wrote:
I went on exchange to Japan a year ago, and took three Japanese courses from the Japanese university while I was in school.
It's actually not that much better to learn Japanese in Japan (if not worse actually, as weird as that might sound) if you do not have the basics covered. If you are already somewhat introduced to a language, then going to the country is a great idea to improve your skills; but getting started in the country is not nearly the same, because teachers in Japan are not necessarily better than the teachers you can find outside when it comes to dealing with foreigners with no fundamentals. What I am saying is, it is easier for you to learn the basic Japanese in English than in Japanese; you need a starting point, a foundation before going.
You will not benefit from the environment through osmosis when you have absolutely not idea what is going on.
Alright that makes a lot of sense, but my plan was to study it in sweden for a couple of months, maybe half a year, before leaving to begin the education in Japan. I know it isn't much, but it is a foundation never the less. I would imagine that the teachers aren't necessarily better at teaching it, but just the fact that you are constantly surrounded by the language sort of forces you into learning it, right? I think that would be the main incentive for moving to japan, that you are being exposed to the language in a way that you couldn't replicate from home.
On March 23 2010 07:17 Zidane wrote:
Depends how well you want to learn the language and how serious you are about it.
If you want to be even close to native speaker status for Japanese, then you have to live there. The speed, dialect, emphasis on accents cannot really be taught unless you're exposed to it in the context of living there.
On the other hand, someone else did mention you can learn Japanese quite well by yourself if you wanted. This is true, but its a lot of work. You'll have to make a conscious decision to want to get better and go out of your way to improve. Studies are one thing, and actual speaking and listening experience is another. Speaking with a person on skype twice a week can help you, but it won't be as effective as speaking and hearing Japanese everyday.
Money wise, getting a Job for someone who's not Japanese is hell from what I've heard. You can probably ask someone else about that though.
I am definitely serious about it and if I'm doing something like this I'm doing it with all of my heart. I'm like not-even-going-to-buy-sc2 serious. 
On March 23 2010 07:07 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 06:58 hifriend wrote:On March 23 2010 06:48 Chill wrote:On March 23 2010 06:21 hifriend wrote:On March 23 2010 06:06 Chill wrote:
If your life in is disorder, I'm going to guess that 2 years of debt to gain a useless skill isn't the best of ideas. Yeah, and I've had similar thoughts myself. But the reason why my life is in disorder stems from my current situation. I'm just overall bored with my life right now, and I want to be doing something that interests me. Can you do things just because you really want to, disregarding losses and "time wasted"? Yes, but ignoring any sort of cost/benefit analysis is dumb. It's like people who argue we should sacrifice countless resources to improve the environment of the earth. Clearly there exists some balance point between you being bored, and you incurring 2 years worth of debt. Yep. I realize this all too well and to some degree I almost wish I was the sort of person that could impulsively do it anyway, without overthinking the consequences. So what I'm really debating is whether the long time benefits of knowing an additional languages might be worth the costs anyway. They are not. I can say this with unparalleled certainty.
Sucks that you are probably right. It's actually why I posted here, because I expected to get much more pessimistic (read: realistic) responses then my friends might provide. But I still feel like I have to figure this out somehow, because for the first time in a couple of years I have a good idea of something I would want to do with my life "long term".
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On March 23 2010 06:06 Chill wrote:
If your life in is disorder, I'm going to guess that 2 years of debt to gain a useless skill isn't the best of ideas.
Useless skill is a pretty harsh, while it isn't one of the BEST choices when choosing a foreigh language, its still not useless.
Given OP's situation though I'd have to agree try again when your conditions are more favored, or just pick something thats more rewarding
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Your language skills improve exponentially in a foreign country if you have the basics down (a year or two of school study beforehand). I participated in a summer language program in China last summer after studying a year in high school and I was amazed at how much I improved in just 2 months. 2 years and you would be damn near fluent if you just immerse yourself in the culture. That being said, the kids in the lower levels of the program who were studying the entry-level texts didn't really benefit much from being in China because they still couldn't communicate with the people around them. They could have accomplished the same thing for cheaper if they had just stayed in America to study.
I think you should get a grasp of the language before you head out to Japan and then go for it. The experience of living in another country learning a foreign language is definitely worth the costs you will incur. Don't shelter yourself from this opportunity by letting people convince you that it is not worth the debt afterward.
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On March 23 2010 07:19 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 07:13 Cambium wrote:
I went on exchange to Japan a year ago, and took three Japanese courses from the Japanese university while I was in school.
It's actually not that much better to learn Japanese in Japan (if not worse actually, as weird as that might sound) if you do not have the basics covered. If you are already somewhat introduced to a language, then going to the country is a great idea to improve your skills; but getting started in the country is not nearly the same, because teachers in Japan are not necessarily better than the teachers you can find outside when it comes to dealing with foreigners with no fundamentals. What I am saying is, it is easier for you to learn the basic Japanese in English than in Japanese; you need a starting point, a foundation before going.
You will not benefit from the environment through osmosis when you have absolutely not idea what is going on. Alright that makes a lot of sense, but my plan was to study it in sweden for a couple of months, maybe half a year, before leaving to begin the education in Japan. I know it isn't much, but it is a foundation never the less. I would imagine that the teachers aren't necessarily better at teaching it, but just the fact that you are constantly surrounded by the language sort of forces you into learning it, right? I think that would be the main incentive for moving to japan, that you are being exposed to the language in a way that you couldn't replicate from home.
Not commenting on your motivation/goals/etc, just providing you with some of my personal experiences about learning Japanese in Japan:
I took three Japanese courses in my home university before going, and I am fluent in Chinese (I could read and understand ~3/4 of their written language), and I still had a ton of trouble "breaking into" the language. Whereas my friend whom went on exchange with 3 years of Japanese background (she started in highschool) excelled tremendously (there are certainly other factors, but I think knowledge of the fundamentals definitely contributed).
I don't mean to discourage you, and I think it's a worthwhile investment if you see the merits; but I would just like to point it out to you that Japanese is a very very *very* difficult language, especially if you do not have an Eastern Asian language background. Also, the basics Japanese you learn from introductory courses (regardless where you take them) will largely be obsolete, as it takes a completely neutral form of politeness (kei-go, meaning to show respect), but in reality, it's the form that people rarely use (i.e. people who know you will use less formal conjugations, and strangers will use a more polite/former conjugation) which will leave you feeling completely helpless 
Also, I found that Japanese people are TERRIBLE at communication with foreigners. They would often elect to use the most formal word choice and conjugation possible (the more rare) instead of using the simple plain forms (a sign of disrespect in their culture, but much easier to understand, since this is what you learn, and you can't recognize conjugations fast enough). And the more you don't understand, the more they panic, and the more they conjugate. It's just a huge mess.
It will be tough, but if you are determined, it can be done.
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On March 23 2010 07:33 TommyGG wrote:
Your language skills improve exponentially in a foreign country if you have the basics down (a year or two of school study beforehand). I participated in a summer language program in China last summer after studying a year in high school and I was amazed at how much I improved in just 2 months. 2 years and you would be damn near fluent if you just immerse yourself in the culture. That being said, the kids in the lower levels of the program who were studying the entry-level texts didn't really benefit much from being in China because they still couldn't communicate with the people around them. They could have accomplished the same thing for cheaper if they had just stayed in America to study.
I think you should get a grasp of the language before you head out to Japan and then go for it. The experience of living in another country learning a foreign language is definitely worth the costs you will incur. Don't shelter yourself from this opportunity by letting people convince you that it is not worth the debt afterward.
Yep, this is exactly what I was talking about.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 23 2010 07:30 Monokeros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 06:06 Chill wrote:
If your life in is disorder, I'm going to guess that 2 years of debt to gain a useless skill isn't the best of ideas. Useless skill is a pretty harsh, while it isn't one of the BEST choices when choosing a foreigh language, its still not useless. Given OP's situation though I'd have to agree try again when your conditions are more favored, or just pick something thats more rewarding
Unless in terms of generating money. Useless in the comparison of dollars spent to dollars earned, which is the theme of this blog.
I find a lot of people lately on TL are having an identity crisis of sorts lately, and coming up with these fantastical ideas to solve them. I'm trying to be the realist for you who has already gone through all that shit and is talking from the other side.
You need to grind through and "find yourself" after you have built some freedom, which usually hinges on some form of financial freedom. Everyone goes through this. The majority who just grind through end up way better off.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 23 2010 07:33 TommyGG wrote:
The experience of living in another country learning a foreign language is definitely worth the costs you will incur when you can afford it. Don't shelter yourself from this opportunity by letting people convince you that it is not worth the debt afterward.
I added some insight to your post.
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EPT
