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I decided to play this map today for the first time, on the first day of the new season. Unfortunately, unlike its relatively fun and balanced partner in new proleague maps, fighting spirit, moon glaive is a piece of shit. I am now 7-11, having played all my games on that map. 9 of them were zvp, all of which i lost. Most of them i even gained an advantage in the early game due to ling run bys killing tons of probes. This is the worst start to an iccup season i can ever remember having -__- I dont think ill be playing it again unless forced to.
Disadvantages Zerg has against Protoss on Moon Glaive:
the 3rd and 4th expansions are really fucking close and easy for the protoss to take. They have minimal mineral patches, every one of them has gas - protoss units in pvz are very gas intensive, zerg units in zvp are alot more evenly matched in terms of resource needs.
Said expansions have tiny ass back pathways, and slightly larger choke points leading up to the center. Zerg also have no good focal points for massing up their units, because there is a goddam ramp going upwards into the middle of the map which the protoss will obviously hover around constantly, so if you rally units to above the ramp, you have to hold it with your life (and its a gigantic area to hold), if you rally to below the ramp, you get constantly stormed and harassed by dragoons, and your army is divided - he can attack any base he wants while controlling that high ground, and you cant do shit. If you hold back your units at your expansions, guess what - your pathways to reinforce from the other expansions are so small that a single storm covers the entire area - aka they are useless if the protoss has storm, and what protoss wont? Also if the protoss has his main beside your 4th base, its easy as fuck to storm/templar/dt drop from the safety of his main, you might even be forced to expand to 4th on the opposite side of the map as your 3rd.
Taking the far main is an option, but not a very good one. You have to turtle extremely hard, because the distance is so far between your bases, the protoss can harass + pressure the shit out of the naturals alternately. And, the natural only gives u 7 minerals The main has 9, so its decent, but still if you are turtling really hard for 2 bases, it would be nice if those 2 bases were giving you good returns. Did i mention the protoss can get just as many bases as you anyway? thats without expanding out of his area of protection. Usually when you play this style, you force the protoss to expand to far away places to keep even with you in macro, which you then abuse with crackling drops/attacking bases with swarm etc. In this case, this advantage is greatly reduced, the protoss 3rd and 4th expansions are tightly packed and can be easily walled off, and they are all close enough to the protoss main for him to safe himself from any danger.
The center of the map is huge and the only way to get onto it is by ramps leading from all your expansions, as mentioned before. Yay for protoss, all they have to do is hover around the center, covering the ramps and putting pressure on various bases till the zerg runs out of money or is weak enough to attack.
Every expansion of the zergs can be easily cannon rushed. There is a space behind the zerg natural that can be blocked off by a pylon, with space enough for 2 cannons behind the mineral line. Ofc this is out of the zergs vision while the hatchery is morphing. Another way to offensive cannon the zergs natural is to build cannons above the ridge in the corner over said natural - again, with the pathway that units take going down the ramp, this is completely out of vision until its too late. The 3rd and 4th bases of the zerg can be cannoned as well, but not in any largely imbalanced way. Taking the far natural increases the effectiveness of cannon rushes on it by a billion %, because its so goddam far, even if you do scout it you might still lose to it if they do that wallin behind the mineral line, all they need is the pylon to finish, and there will be no drones to jump over minerals in that case - just more stuff for the zerg to watch out for.
Advantages Zerg has against Protoss on Moon Glaive
the protoss has to watch out for ling runbys coming from 2 directions instead of 1, big deal this happened on heartbreak ridge as well and it shouldnt be a problem unless you are bad at scouting or walling in. The 2nd pathway is conveniently perfect blocked by a core or forge
So in conclusion, Moon Glaive is a terrible map for zvp and i will avoid it at all costs in the future unless some zerg thinks of an amazing strategy to use on it that counterbalances all the disadvantages i named above. Why the fuck do the korean mapmakers keep pumping out pieces of crap? I have yet to see one replay or vod in which a zerg wins over protoss on this. On youtube i found 1 proleague zvp on it - zerg got smashed into the ground. I watched a replay of white-ra vs a zerg pro. Guess who won? White-ra, with ease even. Fuck this map
   
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it's even better for terran.
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So one of your reasons for Moon Glaive being good for P in PvZ is that each base has relatively few minerals and has gas?
And it's also good because of Cannon rushing which is completely preventable? Seriously?
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Yah its pretty strong terran map because its really easy to defend a lot of expos
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I had my first ZvP on here today, and i thought it was going nicely. There was so much gas and i thought i could eventually maximize it for hive tech, unfortunantly, i couldn't actually stop any expos, as he has his army popping back and forth between top on his side and main (never attacking) and took 2 gas expos so easy and 4 gas protoss is good no matter how far ahead zerg is (ask free)
I then thought "gee, he must be a damn good player to pull that off" and didn't think of any map problems, but, he was C, with stats last season of 88-127.
FML
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United States10774 Posts
cannon rush is the new pvz
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On December 18 2009 20:11 OneOther wrote: cannon rush is the new pvz worked for + Show Spoiler +... oh wait.
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
Maybe zerg just isn't your race. Have you tried using protoss?
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konadora
Singapore66131 Posts
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United States11390 Posts
On December 19 2009 00:32 Kau wrote: Maybe zerg just isn't your race. Have you tried using protoss? He plays PvZ, PvT, and ZvP.
This is also why Ret's rep pack needs to be out sooner. (or actual zvp vods in proleague would be nice on this map would nice)
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harass? lurker contain? prevent toss from mass expanding? O_o
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On December 19 2009 01:55 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 00:32 Kau wrote: Maybe zerg just isn't your race. Have you tried using protoss? He plays PvZ, PvT, and ZvP. This is also why Ret's rep pack needs to be out sooner.  (or actual zvp vods in proleague would be nice on this map would nice)
Haha, then learn to play PvP instead of crying about an imbalanced map.
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this is amazing... that map is more Zerg than Protoss exactly because you get easy gas while you can harass the shit out of the toss and not let him expand... if toss do that to you then you surely need to check your gameplay.
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@ darktreb the cannon rushing reason was added last and is the least important - mineral and gas saturation is very important though, yes im serious -.-
@camlito I agree i lost to some pretty bad tosses on that map as well
@magil-phil no im not, have u even played this map? (vs any good protoss)
@Harem yes, ty for ur support
@zeetemplar i mentioned i did lingrunbys and gained advantage, yet lost anyway, what other harassing methods would u suggest? Lurker contain does not work, he can use a side path to expand easily, or flank your contain, as i stated in the OP its very easy for protoss to take and defend expansions because of the small chokes and ramps.
@Kau ya im going to switch my race because of 1 map, good idea man, if i did that for every imbalanced map i ever played on i might as well play random.
@crunchums I am dealing with it, i made a blog to vent + inform others of this bad map, went over what i could possibly to do improve my gameplay on it - failing that i decided not to play the map anymore. If you dont have anything useful to post, stfu
@raptorx LOL u cant harass the shit out of protoss, he gets expands really easily (as i have stated in the OP), and i surely did check my gameplay, which last season allowed me to get A- on decently balanced maps such as fighting spirit, colloseum, destination, match point, etc. What is amazing is that you post without having any evidence to back up your claims.
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