• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:30
CEST 11:30
KST 18:30
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202519Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder2EWC 2025 - Replay Pack2Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced33BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update Serral wins EWC 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 EWC 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Which platform caters to men's fashion needs? Help: rep cant save Shield Battery Server New Patch Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [G] Progamer Settings
Tourneys
[BSL] Non-Korean Championship - Final weekend [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Flash @ Namkraft Laddernet …
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 600 users

Progaming Lifeline

Blogs > WheelOfTime
Post a Reply
WheelOfTime
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada331 Posts
November 30 2009 13:01 GMT
#1
A concept that I've been pondering:

Progaming is held by fanboyism, whether you agree with me or not, it's hard to argue that nobody wants to watch mediocre players upsetting your favorite players who go on to fail in the next round/stage/upcoming games. KWANNROLL in the MSL finals was a perfect example of how a MSL final could somehow possess the same amount of excitement as a Minor League Bogus vs Lucifer match. I couldn't care less about the victor, let alone stay up late to watch the match live. In fact, I didn't even watch the vods, and only checked the results a week later.

Consider the following hypothetical match between OZ and CJ:

(T)HiyA - (Z)sAviOr
(Z)Jaedong - (T)sKyHigh
(P)PerfectMan - EffOrt
(Z)Killer - Movie

Out of the 8 players, only Jaedong and Savior have fan bases of respectable size. If both Savior and Jaedong were to lose to Hiya and Skyhigh respectively, then it'll be a big blow to the "progaming lifeline". Fanboys will cry, lose faith in their favorite player even further, and inevitably, lose faith in them and stop caring. I know I don't follow the OSL anymore because Bisu got knocked out by Shine. On the other hand, if Jaedong and Savior both took their matches, fanboys, especially those of Savior, would leap in joy and nerdgasm hardcore, feel satisfied, regain faith in their favorite players, and continue to follow their next matches with a keen interest. So It's a good thing when favorites win, a good thing when favorites lose to new raising stars who then become more loved and the new favorites, but a bad thing when favorites lose to scrubs who then go on to fail against other scrubs.

For any competition to be entertaining, it has to be balanced to the point where no one or few players complete dominate, but it also has to have a certain amount of star power. Sadly, professional starcraft in Korea is losing that aspect of the game, where the skill level has become so high that most players have reached the upper limits of starcraft training. Eventually, we'll see more of a shift of win/loss rates with pretty much EVERY progamer having 50% winrate. Of course it wouldn't happen so fast and dramatically, but you get my point.

So I hope for the sake of the continuation of professional broodwar compeition, that talented players can rise above their peers and start to win games in dominating fashions again. The ONLY player currently with that "aura of invincibility" around him that makes him exciting to watch even in TVT is of course, Flash. Not mentioning the previous era bonjwas, Bisu lost his aura, Fantasy never quite got his, Stork/Janbi/Kal/Dragons lost theirs, and even Jaedong's is swaying dangerously these days. I hate TVT with a passion but I watch Flash's TVT games, simply because, it's Flash and he has the aura.

Current favorites need to win a lot more often, or we need some new raising players would could consistently win and become the new favorites and not fail against other scrubs after a short win streak. Please no more Shines in starcraft, plzkthnx.

**
meeple
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada10211 Posts
November 30 2009 13:07 GMT
#2
I think some fans are just too fickle. They see one lose from their hero and declare "Slump Slump Slump" Like the little boy who thought the sky was falling. Even the bonjwa's didn't win every single game. Tough it out and realize that noone is perfect.
IceCube
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Croatia1403 Posts
November 30 2009 13:37 GMT
#3
Your entire OP is based on facts and I have nothing to really add becouse it seems to me to be 100% true..but I would like to add that if we had only one player win every single MU or game he plays or even we have few players capable of doing this then we wouldn't find SC so amusing and fun to watch if we knew the end outcome just based on if certain player(s) play.
Yes we have some S class players and then the rest but even S class players lose if they perform badly and thats what makes this game interesting to watch.
Forever Vulture.. :(
Musoeun
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States4324 Posts
November 30 2009 13:53 GMT
#4
There's a reason the focus is slowly shifting to the team league.

If sAviOr (or whoever) gets knocked out of the MSL, it's that much less interesting.

If sAviOr (or whoever) loses a game - it's only one game, maybe his teammates can pick him up, and if they can't there's always the next match... the next season.

If a team does badly, it's a blow - but you like players on other teams, and there's always next round, next season.

And they keep playing. Good or bad, you can watch your team, your players, play day in and day out.

There are always going to be a handful of dominant players, but it's highly unlikely that we'll ever see the day again where we can point to one gamer and say, "He's the one." Because of this, the team play is the future of SC, for good or bad.
Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting.
JohannesH
Profile Joined September 2009
Finland1364 Posts
November 30 2009 15:06 GMT
#5
On November 30 2009 22:53 Musoeun wrote:
There are always going to be a handful of dominant players, but it's highly unlikely that we'll ever see the day again where we can point to one gamer and say, "He's the one."

Flash just might be the one.

But I think its interesting when theres not much games where the winner is totally clear, that kind of games are not interesting to watch. In many ways its cooler to see your favorite get through a tough fight than just dominate - or dominate in a match that looked like a tight matchup beforehand.
If you have to ask, you don't know.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21243 Posts
November 30 2009 16:08 GMT
#6
Your entire post is based on the FALSE premise that a good player losing a game will lose him fans =\
TranslatorBaa!
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 112
ProTech71
StarCraft: Brood War
Killer 2601
Barracks 1202
Hyun 1053
Mini 200
Leta 120
sorry 100
Larva 94
PianO 86
ToSsGirL 68
Dewaltoss 64
[ Show more ]
Zeus 59
Sacsri 55
Hm[arnc] 43
Shinee 41
ZerO 41
yabsab 35
Sharp 27
sSak 25
Backho 21
ajuk12(nOOB) 13
Aegong 6
Dota 2
XcaliburYe267
BananaSlamJamma246
Fuzer 195
League of Legends
febbydoto3
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1480
allub133
edward24
Other Games
singsing734
Happy173
SortOf114
DeMusliM11
ZerO(Twitch)9
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1162
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 48
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta57
• LUISG 27
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV325
• lizZardDota266
Upcoming Events
OSC
3h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6h 30m
The PondCast
1d
Online Event
1d 6h
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs TBD
Online Event
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs TBD
[ Show More ]
OSC
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025

Upcoming

BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
Yuqilin POB S2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.