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Everyone gather around, and sit on Uncle VorcePA's lap, because it's story time. Once upon a time, in a game called Heroes of Newerth (HoN) by S2 games, which is an almost carbon copy of Warcraft III's path to ascension: Defense of the Ancients, or simply DotA (Doh - Tuh). In this game, up to 10 people compete in a 5v5 match, and the victor is decided by two outcomes:
1) The "town hall" building of one team is destroyed.
2) A player on one team starts a vote to concede prior to the town hall building being destroyed. All players on this player's team that started the vote must vote in favor. 1 vote against and the vote is discarded. (Keep in mind this is in beta and may be subject to change)
Now, I just recently played a game where the game was lost about 20 minutes in (average 5v5 game is between 35 and 50 minutes long). One of our team members couldn't wait for us to concede, so he simply disconnected, which not only effects your rating (like on iccup), but also counts against your number of disconnects. Some game types exclude a certain % of leaving prior to loss/concede, so leaving prior to the game ending is a slightly harsher punishment.
This is, in effect, where I simply say GG and vote to concede. We have fewer hero kills, our heroes are lower level than theirs, and in this particular game, if one of the heroes on the other team obtains the right items and obtains max level, he's pretty much invulnerable and can dish out unthinkable damage on a single target. He's also supported by 4 other heroes. We have no such hero, and we are missing one hero at this point. All looks lost. It is time to concede. 2 players on my team refuse several attempts on my part to concede. They say we still have a chance.
At this point, I choose no longer to participate. I actively level my hero away from the main battles, and only intervene to score kills against the other team when they are in our base. Aside from that, I am completely passive. I just want to leave. I am no longer enjoying myself, and would like to go on to my next game, or in this case, bed. "There is still a chance," they say. I'm not having any of it. I'm leveling my hero, and getting good defensive items to make myself harder to kill, and that's it.
And suddenly, a random act of God intervenes. The hero on the other team that I mentioned earlier, the one that becomes unstoppable in late game, disconnects and does not come back. An opportunity arises, I am the most powerful character on the team for avoiding the battle and getting awesome items, and we ultimately make a push for their base and win.
I was wrong. My actions of being passive, however, helped us win with relative ease once the opportunity presented itself.
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My controversy is this: should I have hoped for an out-of-game mechanic to intervene to help us land a victory? Was it wrong for me to try to concede early on, even though disconnects are not a rare (but not a frequent) occurrence? My team members were angry with me up until I helped them push to victory. Obviously, they couldn't be too mad at me, because success depended on my role in the last push.
These people thought there was a chance. I did not. I also did not count on the random disconnect. Many people who play HoN loathe and abhor the concede function. Many people, like me, want a less strict concede function, allowing, say, the majority or 4/5 to be able to concede. The ones who hate it say "take your loss like a man" and "there's always a chance" and go on about this story how they were just a few buildings away from defeat, and yet came back to win, etc., etc. My problem with these arguments is that I want to have fun playing the game I happen to be playing.
In Starcraft, one simply says GG and leaves, and that's it. Even in a 4v4 or 2v2v2v2, you are able to do that without an increased penalty for doing so. I had fun playing, but I lost. It is time for me to leave. My opponent wants me to quit so he may move on to his next game, and I want to leave because I want to move on to my next game. Not only that, but I know when I've lost, and I know that unless something out-of-game happens, like one of their teammates disconnecting, I have lost. I know what errors were made, and in a team game, I know if they were my fault or the fault of my team mates. I am not having fun anymore when I know I've lost, I cannot leave, and the game can on as long as 25 more minutes before one side is victorious. That's about 23.5 minutes I spend not having fun *playing a game*.
So TL, what do you have to say on the matter?
 
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Should be able to leave if you want to or if you are reasonably sure the game is over. No grief leaving or being a dick leaving. I don't think many people will disagree with that or with you.
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If the game is clearly over then the losers should leave. Counting on a disconnect to save your ass is absurd to me.
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Personally, I would've wanted to concede as well. It's very unlikely that you can hold on long enough to farm good enough items (depending on how one-sided it is). Not only that, it's unlikely (although luckily it happened to you) that a carry on the other team would DC so conveniently.
I'm pretty sure that in all my games where we were losing and someone called up the concede vote I accepted. Usually it ends up being a huge waste of time and it ruins my already horrible K:D ratio.
However, being a game and all, I can't really look so deep into it as your post does. It's just kinda "meh, whatever".
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On September 10 2009 17:16 Mastermind wrote:
If the game is clearly over then the losers should leave. Counting on a disconnect to save your ass is absurd to me.
Agreed. It's similar to, but not quite as bad as, hiding pylons or floating buildings and hoping your opponent disconnects while he hunts down your buildings.
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On September 10 2009 17:16 BanZu wrote:
Personally, I would've wanted to concede as well. It's very unlikely that you can hold on long enough to farm good enough items (depending on how one-sided it is). Not only that, it's unlikely (although luckily it happened to you) that a carry on the other team would DC so conveniently.
I'm pretty sure that in all my games where we were losing and someone called up the concede vote I accepted. Usually it ends up being a huge waste of time and it ruins my already horrible K:D ratio.
However, being a game and all, I can't really look so deep into it as your post does. It's just kinda "meh, whatever".
That's the point, though. It's a game. Not only that, but I'm a beta tester. I am there to provide feedback on what is good or bad about a game. I personally think the concede function needs an overhaul, because requiring all 5 people to concede is hopelessly frustrating. People even use the concede function to grief. Everyone wants to leave, but one guy will vote against simply to piss the team off.
More importantly: it is not fun. A game is supposed to entertain me, and when I spend over half of my gameplay experience at times not enjoying myself, well, I just can't bring myself to purchase that game.
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concede being being a diverse word, you used it ten fantastic times.
you deserve a reward
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On September 10 2009 17:27 Revolt wrote:
concede being being a diverse word, you used it ten fantastic times.
you deserve a reward[img]http://www.deviantart.com/download/126454223/Medal_of_awesome__Nerdfighters_by_Sabre_Night.png[img]
I... uhhh... thanks.
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I've thought quite a bit regarding conceding in DotA, or HoN as it is soon to be called everywhere, and I think you shouldn't compare it too much with the Starcraft way of doing things.
First off all, I think it's friggin fantastic that they have added a concede option in the game, which was something DotA really needed. When one team have become really imba compared to the other team, usually what people did if they played ladder was to go afk in the base and wait for the opponent to finish them off. I hated this aspect of the game, as I am familiar with the Starcraft way of just quitting a game that is a certain loss. It was a waste of time, and completely ridicules gameplay wise.
However, I have learned that the progress and outcome of a DotA game can infact be turned around at almost any time, especially when playing with randoms. I have tons of times, like for example when our team is behind the opponent by 20 kills, thought it was time to give up and concede. Turn of events however, like a really established teamplay, or maybe slacking from the opponents side who knew the game was in their favor by far, can turn the table completely. I'm not saying this is valid for every mach ofcourse, there are some scenarios where the players you are playing with are complete newbs and feeding like hell, but since this is infact teamplay, every player have something to bring to the table.
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Yeah, such weird rule will 100% cause people to simply go AFK in games, so that they won't kill their record with disconnects and won't waste time at the same time.
But leavers were always problem with DOTA - they kill your fun, so that's why developers try to prevent this. And unfortunately end up killing fun with other rule... :/
However, it is almost the same with StarCraft - some people leave very quickly, even when they still have quite a little chances to win and some wait veeery long (and i'm not talking about annoyers who build pylons around map, etc. some people really believe in victory for way too long  )
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First off, I don't know this game, HoN, but I do know DotA. My reply is based on my understanding of DotA rather than HoN, but I get the impression these things play out similarly in the two games.
Attempting to have your team embrace the loss by conceding is the proper thing to do, but in the instance that they do not accept this game as a certain loss, you are imo obliged to fight on with your team on a normal game's premises and to do your best. By simply leveling (to avoid feeding) but not fully playing the game you are putting your team at an additional disadvantage that is not fair to their gaming experience (they are still fighting for the win, however unlikely that win may be). It sucks to play alot of noob games with stubborn players who don't realize they've lost, but basically, by not letting them have their game you are being a dick. It may be that the game needs a looser conceding system (like for instance 4/5 agreement to concede), but as it is you better play the game by it's rules.
In short, don't let down a team that still fights for the win. You play a team game in which other people's enjoyment depends on your cooperation, by participating you accept the terms of teamplay to the end.
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
i'll just accept it and go 'lol fuck yeah suddenly i win'
i mean, i'll just think of it as pure luck
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I am stubbourn and never like to leave if I have the slightest chance to win. Especially when there is something to prove being one man down.
Similar things in Guild Wars, although that was 8v8 and so one loss was not as big of a deal at the lower levels.
DotA (Doh - Tuh)
I say it dot-ah. (dot as in the word dot, and a short a bordering on a schwa like in the word 'pita' like pita bread).
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
in your specific case i think it would have been okay to just leave. counting on something that is not part of the game like a disconnect is just obnoxious, it'd be like floating your buildings around or hiding pylons.
in general though, i think people give up too easily. one of the first things i ever learned in starcraft was from watching boxer come back from impossible scenarios. it was amazing to see someone still optimizing every single unit and building despite certain loss, and actually pulling through. the only time i feel bad about prolonging a game is in tvp, where it's possible to delay forever while clearly having no chance of winning.
regarding team games: a pet peeve of mine is when one of your allies just abruptly leaves because their base is being destroyed. by staying, they first buy you time by making your opponents kill his shit, and give you vision should they manage to save any buildings. overlords, stray workers, etc all can still be used to scout. 1 worker and 400 minerals has infinite potential. it's also a matter of simple manners too, to help your partner try their best even if you are out of the running.
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My controversy is this: should I have hoped for an out-of-game mechanic to intervene to help us land a victory? Was it wrong for me to try to concede early on, even though disconnects are not a rare (but not a frequent) occurrence?
No and no. /thread. Just play the fucking game, don't try to averanalyze everything.
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when you join a dota team game, you join with an agreement that you will try your best to beat the other team and win the game, at least that is what is expected of you from your team mates. Thus you have an obligation to your teammates. When you quit mid game, you place your own enjoyment factor before theirs. Although you might not enjoy the game as much anymore, you quitting would likely decrease their enjoyment because now they stand an even lesser chance to win. I think as long as two people within the 5 player team want to continue playing, the game should go on, hence i would agree with the 4/5 vote concede.
I propose the following:
- 4/5 vote to concede
- an option to opt-out, or kick yourself/feeders without penalty. Say if you are feeding in a game, you or the team should be able to do a quick vote and if the team agrees that you are a burden, you can quit the game without tarnishing your reputation.
- A reputation system that displays the percentage of games where you voluntarily disconnect. If you hold your mouse over that percentage, it will display the number of games you stuck through with over the number of total games. Although you should be free to quit the game at anytime, your teammates should also have that information before they let you into the game. This reputation should encourage people to not ragequit. Whether your reputation is good enough to be allowed in a game would be up to the host's discretion.
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I haven't try HoN, but I don't think I will ever try it. It isn't that hard to turn the table around in DotA. Ganked while roshan, misplacement skills etc can be big difference in win or lose.. I've carried 1v5 once with kill around 30-40 and my teammates scores like 2-10. I've lost the hope to win but fortunately they went roshan and ganked. We won 2 minutes later.
just keep on playing, you'll never know what will happen next.
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Yes and no. You're right in persuading your team to forfeit right there and then, but you're wrong on purposely ruining the game in order for it to end earlier. That's douchebaggery at it's best. You joined the game, you play it till the end, that's it. It's a 4v5, you'll rarely win, but it doesn't hurt to try - you can always learn something from that, too.
There's always the chance that the other team gets complacent and screws up repeatedly (it's very common in public games), or like in this case, someone drops and there's your chance.
Mind you, I didn't even try out HoN yet. But I've been playing DotA casually for 3+ years. I don't think they're so different that my opinion can't be applied though.
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can you tell another story?
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You say your god decided to disconnect one player so you could win?
Wow, I hope I had such an awesome god.
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On September 10 2009 20:21 Railxp wrote:
when you join a dota team game, you join with an agreement that you will try your best to beat the other team and win the game, at least that is what is expected of you from your team mates. Thus you have an obligation to your teammates. When you quit mid game, you place your own enjoyment factor before theirs. Although you might not enjoy the game as much anymore, you quitting would likely decrease their enjoyment because now they stand an even lesser chance to win. I think as long as two people within the 5 player team want to continue playing, the game should go on, hence i would agree with the 4/5 vote concede.
I propose the following:
- 4/5 vote to concede
- an option to opt-out, or kick yourself/feeders without penalty. Say if you are feeding in a game, you or the team should be able to do a quick vote and if the team agrees that you are a burden, you can quit the game without tarnishing your reputation.
- A reputation system that displays the percentage of games where you voluntarily disconnect. If you hold your mouse over that percentage, it will display the number of games you stuck through with over the number of total games. Although you should be free to quit the game at anytime, your teammates should also have that information before they let you into the game. This reputation should encourage people to not ragequit. Whether your reputation is good enough to be allowed in a game would be up to the host's discretion.
HoN has some of those. Right now:
1. You need 5/5 to concede
2. There is an option to kick out a player without penalty. The thing is the vote is for everyone in the game not just your teammates. So if your opponents enjoys getting fed they will rarely accept the kick.
3. There is something like that. You have a leaving % (a bit like disconnects in SC). The system has a minimum disconnect % depending on your level. The host can decide to make the game with the no leaver option, meaning that players exceeding a certain disc% can't join
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1v1 gg'ing and leaving is obviously fine, it's your decision alone. However, in a team game, you should play on unless everyone calls it out of politeness. I've often felt like we'd 100% lost dota games only for my teammates to pull through. You can get a pretty skewed negative perspective of the state of a game like dota after a string of deaths.
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The ability to reconnect to a game you've DCed from is League of Legends' greatest addition to DotA-like games imo. If HoN employs something like this, then this situation probably wouldn't have happened (unless the guy's teammates were dicks and sold all his shit).
A lot of people will play a game to the very end because that is what they consider a fun game, and their opinion matters just as much as yours. Also, if you're good you can improve your K/D ratio at the very least (don't know if HoN keeps track of it).
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On September 10 2009 22:51 Eti307 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2009 20:21 Railxp wrote:
when you join a dota team game, you join with an agreement that you will try your best to beat the other team and win the game, at least that is what is expected of you from your team mates. Thus you have an obligation to your teammates. When you quit mid game, you place your own enjoyment factor before theirs. Although you might not enjoy the game as much anymore, you quitting would likely decrease their enjoyment because now they stand an even lesser chance to win. I think as long as two people within the 5 player team want to continue playing, the game should go on, hence i would agree with the 4/5 vote concede.
I propose the following:
- 4/5 vote to concede
- an option to opt-out, or kick yourself/feeders without penalty. Say if you are feeding in a game, you or the team should be able to do a quick vote and if the team agrees that you are a burden, you can quit the game without tarnishing your reputation.
- A reputation system that displays the percentage of games where you voluntarily disconnect. If you hold your mouse over that percentage, it will display the number of games you stuck through with over the number of total games. Although you should be free to quit the game at anytime, your teammates should also have that information before they let you into the game. This reputation should encourage people to not ragequit. Whether your reputation is good enough to be allowed in a game would be up to the host's discretion. HoN has some of those. Right now: 1. You need 5/5 to concede 2. There is an option to kick out a player without penalty. The thing is the vote is for everyone in the game not just your teammates. So if your opponents enjoys getting fed they will rarely accept the kick. 3. There is something like that. You have a leaving % (a bit like disconnects in SC). The system has a minimum disconnect % depending on your level. The host can decide to make the game with the no leaver option, meaning that players exceeding a certain disc% can't join
ooo cool didnt know that XP maybe i should start considering HoN
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Calgary25990 Posts
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Most people want to see the final battle, even if it's like 10 marines vs 4 battle cruisers. Maybe the battle cruisers are all really badly damaged, maybe they're hallucination whatever.
In progaming it really sucks (but at least is incredibly rare) when one of them just gets starved and leaves before they've lost all their units. People want to see the game end on the note that all their fighting units had their last hurrah. It kind of sucks in normal games you're playing in too. Obviously don't turtle when you're dead, but go in for some last really risky operation that might swing the game, even though no one is expected to live.
That's my thought anyway. Plus come back games are always the best games. Just hope your opponent slips up a lot while you play perfectly there on.
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From a DotA perspective I'm more-or-less in your boat, actually. If the other team has a Void that's been farming all game, and you know he doesn't suck ass, and he's not even had to enter battles for your team to get crushed all game, then I don't really ever see hope in winning. For god's sakes you're losing battles 5v4... without their uber invinci char. Usually in DotA I just gg and leave; if I'm playing with friends I usually ask them first before I "ragequit." I mean I know there's the moral of being in a team game but in a casual game I don't see any reason to killjoy myself for people I don't know and probably will never run into again. I play games to have fun; the moment it becomes not-fun for me it's time to stop.
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On September 10 2009 23:25 Flakes wrote:
The ability to reconnect to a game you've DCed from is League of Legends' greatest addition to DotA-like games imo. If HoN employs something like this, then this situation probably wouldn't have happened (unless the guy's teammates were dicks and sold all his shit).
A lot of people will play a game to the very end because that is what they consider a fun game, and their opinion matters just as much as yours. Also, if you're good you can improve your K/D ratio at the very least (don't know if HoN keeps track of it).
You can reconnect to a game in HoN. If you disconnect, you have 5 minutes to reconnect. Should further disconnects happen, your timer doesn't restart, it simply continues where you left off. So if you disconnect for 1 minute and 12 seconds, reconnect, and later disconnect again, you now have 3 minutes and 48 seconds to reconnect a second time. Once the 5 minutes is up, you are permanently disconnect and it counts against your leave %.
HoN keeps track of your all-time K:D ratio. I didn't want to risk ruining my ratio further in that game that it already is by being on the offensive. I didn't see any hope in sight, so I farmed. Given how that game played out, farming away from the battle and defending at home were probably the smartest things I could have done. I wasn't doing them hoping for a turnaround, though, I was simply doing it to avoid being killed myself. Jungling, the term used in HoN to kill neutral creeps, is kinda hard to find a player doing that, and then fighting in my base, well, I had the defender's advantage.
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Even if you don't come back, at least you get training in coming back from a behind position.
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It's interesting that in most sports, you can't concede because you think you're in an un-winnable position, but RTS people expect it. Image the 2004 Yankees, World Series Champions.
The difference is that people mass game in RTS's, there's no time limit, and advantages tend to snowball worse than linear point differences. And in dota, I would be less likely to quit if I knew my teammates and believed they could raise their level of play for a comeback.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.deviantart.com/download/126454223/Medal_of_awesome__Nerdfighters_by_Sabre_Night.png)
