Remove NASL reg season from Liquibet?

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

November 01 2011 18:40 GMT

So I really like Liquibet and like to really think about the picks. I look at criteria like how the players match up, current balance (ie: is T dominating Z right now? P can't win vs Z?) , how the player is doing currently, etc.

However NASL is casting stuff that 4-8 weeks old (some of it still on the last patch) which shoots two of those things right in the foot.

It's impossible to judge the metagame of when the matches were played cause NASL is not upfront about their delays, and a player that was hot 8 weeks ago might be slumping now.

Just seems like it really throws off the whole idea of making a proper liquibet when you can't account for all these variables.

JonnyLaw

United States3482 Posts

November 01 2011 18:56 GMT

NASL also has a lot of games. So, it's a lot of old games clogging up liquibets.

Personally I just click on the NASL games quickly judging who could possibly win the game. With the sheer volume of games and their age Diamond has a very good point.

Probe1

United States17920 Posts

November 01 2011 19:09 GMT

I agree fully with both posts.

monx

Canada1400 Posts

November 01 2011 19:46 GMT

I second this change

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

November 01 2011 19:58 GMT

I agree, some of it is way behind so you're betting on unsure grounds.

Whole

United States6046 Posts

November 01 2011 20:43 GMT

i dont do liquidbets, but if I would, I'd want NASL off. The games are so delayed, so it makes things pretty inconsistent imo

Sina92

Sweden1303 Posts

November 01 2011 20:47 GMT

I made a similar thread about this issue. You should check the polls out as they are in favour of removing NASL.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=281632

Phobbers

773 Posts

November 01 2011 20:49 GMT

It seems to be that the general feel is that the delayed games hurt it a tad bit, and I would have to say I am in that exact same boat. It feels sometimes when I see the yellow little number in the top left hand corner of my screen and I go to it to see NASL, there is a great big sigh that comes from me.

Sina92

Sweden1303 Posts

November 01 2011 20:49 GMT

Poll: Which of the following do you follow?

GSL (149)
75%

Both (43)
22%

NASL (8)
4%

Poll: Do you think NASL should be on liquibets?

No (144)
61%

Yes (70)
29%

I'm not sure (24)
10%

Dodgin

Canada39254 Posts

November 01 2011 21:03 GMT

#10

I agree. I think only GSL should be on there like it always was.

nekuodah

England2409 Posts

November 01 2011 21:18 GMT

#11

I think GSL and tournaments that can easily be put on liquibet with high caliber players e.g. Dreamhack invitationals, asus rog etc. Nasl is too hard to accurately bet on due to not knowing times games were played vs players performance at those times.

Seeker

Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts

November 01 2011 21:19 GMT

#12

I'd be overjoyed if TL threw in other tourneys like IGN, IEM, MLG, Blizzcon, etc. etc.

Camail

United States1030 Posts

November 01 2011 21:27 GMT

#13

I agree, NASL has old games, but my biggest concern is the amount of games that choke out the display and make it more difficult to find the matches I actually care about.

Yamulo

United States2096 Posts

November 01 2011 21:49 GMT

#14

Yeah, I think it should be removed too, but I think that I would like it if they found something they could replace it with. Really sucks that they stream it 4-8 weeks late because you are basically just guessing on if the player should be jet lagged or really any list of an absurd amount of variables.

TheToast

United States4808 Posts

November 01 2011 22:06 GMT

#15

Wow, I did not realize that NASL's stuff was quite that old, thanks for the heads up Diamond. To me that does present a major issue.

Personally, I don't watch or really follow NASL, I feel that there really isn't any coherence or continuity between the matches like you get in a tournament like GSL. I also feel like many of the players in NASL their skill level is drastically lower than what is present in the GSL. I don't mean to disrespect these players, but it's just the truth. Honestly, there is a slippery slope here, if NASL is put in, then why not ESL's weekely Go4SC2, or IEM, or IPL. What does NASL have that those tournaments do not?

JonnyLaw also has a good point about the volume of games.

So I support this suggestion 100%

tofucake

Hyrule19050 Posts

November 01 2011 22:14 GMT

#16

I don't mind because I pick based on my gut feeling and not by doing nearly as much research as you. But having 84 new Liquibets every day is damn tiring.

xBillehx

United States1289 Posts

November 01 2011 22:58 GMT

#17

I agree, NASL votes are pretty much a shot in the dark for me because we don't know how long ago these games were played and some being on the last patch changes things. In general I don't even think Liquibet should ever include games that were already played in case of any unfortunate leaks among other things pointed out here.

Insane

United States4991 Posts

November 01 2011 23:59 GMT

#18

On November 02 2011 07:14 tofucake wrote:
I don't mind because I pick based on my gut feeling and not by doing nearly as much research as you. But having 84 new Liquibets every day is damn tiring.

My problem with this is that usually gut feeling is going to take SOMETHING into effect rather than just "I like the look of his name". You can't take into account recent performance/tournament results, nor do you even know what patch the games were played on necessarily (at this point it's probably a good bet everything is on the latest patch, but in the past even many weeks after the patch was released some of the games were still old patch).

I agree betting shouldn't be done on NASL because of that.

JonnyLaw

United States3482 Posts

November 02 2011 01:51 GMT

#19

On November 02 2011 07:06 TheToast wrote:
Honestly, there is a slippery slope here, if NASL is put in, then why not ESL's weekely Go4SC2, or IEM, or IPL. What does NASL have that those tournaments do not?

NASL has a timeline of weeks. This gives us time to bet on games and (someone?) to insert liquibet candidates.

IPL3, IEM, Dreamhack, are all played over a weekend. This means you'd need to watch live to guess the winners of more than the pools or first round of play.

NASL, GSL and TSL are the three tournaments I've seen in starcraft which are more suited for a liquibet style system on a community site.

That being said, I stick with my earlier sentiments.

Sina92

Sweden1303 Posts

November 02 2011 18:33 GMT

#20

would be interesting if a mod / tl staff commented

TheToast

United States4808 Posts

November 04 2011 21:29 GMT

#21

On November 02 2011 10:51 JonnyLaw wrote:

Show nested quote +

This is true. But still.

Is there any info on why it was decided to include NASL in liquibet?

Sina92

Sweden1303 Posts

November 06 2011 19:38 GMT

#22

On November 05 2011 06:29 TheToast wrote:

Show nested quote +

This is true. But still.

Is there any info on why it was decided to include NASL in liquibet?

I'm very interested in knowing that aswell.. Also I wonder if removing most koreans from NASL had an impact on how they feel about it..

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

November 06 2011 20:19 GMT

#23

Sort of curious why it's so hard to get a mod answer on this topic.......

blackone

Germany1314 Posts

November 07 2011 00:37 GMT

#24

I absolutely agree, even though I only think about 2 seconds about every liquibet. NASL is a lot of games, and online tournaments tend to have a bit more random results as well. I think having the final weekend in would be enough.

TheToast

United States4808 Posts

November 07 2011 19:17 GMT

#25

On November 07 2011 04:38 Sina92 wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm very interested in knowing that aswell.. Also I wonder if removing most koreans from NASL had an impact on how they feel about it..

^That's a good question about the Koreans. There are still some very good players in NASL, some of the best foriegners in the world for sure. But without top Koreans it somehow doesn't seem complete. If someone started an online BW tourney with only foreign players I doubt it was included in BW liquibet. Granted the BW foriegn scene is and never was as active as SC2's, but I think there is a point to be made here.

On November 07 2011 05:19 Diamond wrote:
Sort of curious why it's so hard to get a mod answer on this topic.......

Who administers liquibet? Maybe taking this question to a well written PM would be more appropriate?

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

November 08 2011 18:47 GMT

#26

I don't know why I am still betting on matches with a player that's been retired for over a month......

Any chance of any admin reply?

monx

Canada1400 Posts

November 08 2011 20:00 GMT

#27

I concur. I can't stand betting for NASL

TheToast

United States4808 Posts

November 08 2011 21:52 GMT

#28

On November 09 2011 03:47 Diamond wrote:
I don't know why I am still betting on matches with a player that's been retired for over a month......

Any chance of any admin reply?

I sent CaucasianAsian a friendly PM asking him about this. Maybe he can provide us with some insight on this issue.

CaucasianAsian

Korea (South)11578 Posts

November 09 2011 03:09 GMT

#29

Hey everyone!

Thanks TheToast for sending me a PM (friendly is an understatement!).

To clearify my position, I am the TL Staff member that adds and reports SC2 liquibets. (Among other things, but that is what is relevant here)

I have been under the same impression as of recent, especially as some of the matches never even completed, or it is difficult to find the results of matches, voiding certain liquibets (Fenix comes to mind instantly).

A lot of you have brought up good points, things that I personally didn't even think about. To be honest, I'm not a big SC2 fan mainly because my computer can't support it, so I can't play it (I like being competitive). So I simply add the liquibet matches that I know of in advance, and report the matches when I have time.

As to the reason NASL was first decided to be put into SC2 Liquibets, was because they are a very large tournament, and release the schedule and maps before 48 hours as of when they will be aired. The "48 hour rule" is also the main reason why "weekend tournaments" such as MLG, IPL, IEM, and WCG Grand Finals will not be placed into the SC2 Liquibets.

To simplify the process of adding certain tournaments to SC2 Liquibets.:

Posting the upcomming matches 48 hours in advance allows the majority of TeamLiquid members an opportunity to vote. If they have a busy schedule, and cannot login every day, they will potentially miss out on possible points, so we refrain from adding short lived tournaments.
It would be extremely time intensive if I personally had to watch every single ongoing "weekend" tournament to instantly report results as well as add another potential round that may end up starting in a matter of minutes, for only a few members to be given points (EU/Asian/Australian/American players are all in different time zones and may be asleep during some of these events).

Given all of the information that has been discussed within this thread, I can safely agree with all of you.

NASL Group Stages end this week, so I will add one last and final week of NASL into SC2 Liquibets, (I have always been told to never do things half way. Finish what you started). However, I can assure everyone that this SC2 Liquibet season will end after the finals of GSL November, and NASL will no longer be added to SC2 Liquibets after this week, unless NASL decides to change their policy of games played, among other things.

I have spoken with another Staff member and we agree with you all.

Thanks for sending me a PM once again TheToast for letting me know of this issue.

Happy Liquibeting!

-CaucasianAsian