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I'm 2800 Terran in the Master league and lately I've been losing to Protoss a lot in macro games. I've tried mech, or transitioning out of MMM but it's hard as chargelots + colo/templars own me. Then I started using Poltprime's build and now I'm winning a good amount. After beating this P with the same build he says "fucking Terran and their endless 1-base allins."
I normally play Terran but I've switched to Protoss a few times. The last time I did it, all my PvT's, about 15 games, were Terran mostly 1-basing with marine/tank/raven/banshee +/- scvs. Unable to beat these builds, I said screw this and went back to Terran. So I kinda agree with the P earlier.
Is this how it is on the ladder? As Terran am I forced to play aggressively or be doomed to lose? My Terran brethren all seem to prefer 1-base timing attacks as opposed to stuff like 1rax expo. It was very eye-opening playing as Protoss because while I'm trying to do standard MMM and expanding, they're doing pretty sick builds. POLTPRIME!
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I'm not master league... but, it sounds like you need to have better scouting.
You want to attack, so, know when to attack by scouting better? Also positioning is pretty key in pvt because force fields will fuck you if you get caught in a choke for too long.
Cheers!
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As a toss a fair bit below you (2750 diamond) I'd say that about 75% of my terran opponents do some form of the 1 base raven all-in and I almost always lose when they do it (even when I scout it, I know this means I'm bad) and I win about 60% when they do anything besides a raven all in.
I think the raven 1 base all ins are difficult to stop because there are so many variants and they require very different compositions as a toss (raven tank marine, raven banshee marine, raven helion tank, and even just the % of each among those matters).
FWIW IMMvp did several raven all ins vs tester and it wasn't even close, he just roflstomped him each time so they seem viable at a pretty high level, even when scouted.
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Yes, it's true, you actually should 1base allin vs toss. I'm always fast expanding as terran and I'm losing alot .
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I alternate between 1-base Raven Thor timing at ~12 minutes and 2 Rax FE.
I personally do not think pulling 12 out of 28 SCVs to help with repairs at 12 minutes is all-in, as the timing push puts up a natural very nicely. I can certainly keep going if the push doesn't kill him dead.
My late-game compositions are a mixture Marauder/Thor/Medivac/Ghost/Viking/Marine, with how many of each corresponding to the Stalker/Phoenix/HT/Colossus counts.
1800 Diamond Terran, though, so maybe things are a lot harder late-game in Masters.
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On January 21 2011 18:43 Scare_Crow wrote: I personally do not think pulling 12 out of 28 SCVs to help with repairs at 12 minutes is all-in,
surely you jest....
you have to do damage to his eco in order to survive after that it is most certainly an all in, however due to the nature of this being retardly strong and almost guarenteed eco dmg i can see why you dont think so.
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I dont like the personal state of game. Yesterday i had a game vs. a zerg and he told me after i loose it was noobstyle to fastexpo why not all-in? Are you kidding me? The same thing with Protoss... I really like fast expanding but i dont know what to do in the mid-late game. It feels like nothing really works. Think you have to constantly harrass the Protoss and switch to a more mech-based play because bio just melts to colossus and/or HT. Vikings imho are not the right counter to colossus so i guess maybe try thors with cannons or a good amount of tanks. Would be prefer the first tactic because tanks are so immobile :/
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To be honest I have had no luck at all trying anything but strong all-in builds. I've done countless FE builds where eventually my opponent has enough collosus or just masses zealots/stalkers and rapes my face. I've done banshee teching builds and harassed quite a bit where i've had 9-11 kills per banshee and still can't close it out. I've tried aggressive expanding builds with contains and soon as my contain is broken I'm back to losing again. I dunno why, my tvt and tvz's always come down to making a mistake or a horrible mistake but TvP is like a 10% win rate for me. I can easily destroy lower level (any diamond toss or lower end master league) toss without even trying but soon as I fight anyone with a clue I lose. I won't even start on all the 4-gate rushes ugh...Seriously bunkers with repair are completly useless if toss brings sentries.
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I would like to say as a protoss player, The banshee raven push isn't all-in. I will admit it sparks a bit of rage when people call good timing pushes all-ins.
Do the banshee/raven push, it will get you a few tech labs and I think if you get a bunker you can squeeze out a reactor after a couple marines. If push fails, play leggos with your buildings and get a better unit comp, because you just found out exactly what he was going with your push.
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On January 21 2011 18:50 Fadetowhite wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 18:43 Scare_Crow wrote: I personally do not think pulling 12 out of 28 SCVs to help with repairs at 12 minutes is all-in, surely you jest.... you have to do damage to his eco in order to survive after that it is most certainly an all in, however due to the nature of this being retardly strong and almost guarenteed eco dmg i can see why you dont think so.
Yeah, but 'I need to do eco damage or else I will be very behind' seems to be define every timing push or teching strategy. If we're just going by that definition 4-Gate is all-in, since the expansion timing is very delayed for that build, and it needs to do eco damage against any FE or normal expo timing, or you're at a serious disadvantage.
Back to the original topic: I have the most trouble against Protoss when trying to macro as well, and I frequently lose games in which the Protoss abuse warp-ins and are just everywhere, and I usually win games when Protoss just forms a death-ball. I feel that when Protoss has the resources to get every unit he wants, he has a very large advantage over a Terran who can do the same, which starts to occur at 6 gas.
I guess that's why the 1-base play is really popular, it's not easy to win late. Also, FE loses to 4-gate, I haven't made it work yet. Maybe the Protoss are pushing the Terran in the direction of 1-basing, since the alternative just outright loses to 4-gate, and late-game does not benefit Terran very much.
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I always do a fast expand vs P and try to play a macro game. So this is how I get most of my wins.
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On January 21 2011 19:07 Scare_Crow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 18:50 Fadetowhite wrote:On January 21 2011 18:43 Scare_Crow wrote: I personally do not think pulling 12 out of 28 SCVs to help with repairs at 12 minutes is all-in, surely you jest.... you have to do damage to his eco in order to survive after that it is most certainly an all in, however due to the nature of this being retardly strong and almost guarenteed eco dmg i can see why you dont think so. Yeah, but 'I need to do eco damage or else I will be very behind' seems to be define every timing push or teching strategy. If we're just going by that definition 4-Gate is all-in, since the expansion timing is very delayed for that build, and it needs to do eco damage against any FE or normal expo timing, or you're at a serious disadvantage. Back to the original topic: I have the most trouble against Protoss when trying to macro as well, and I frequently lose games in which the Protoss abuse warp-ins and are just everywhere, and I usually win games when Protoss just forms a death-ball. I feel that when Protoss has the resources to get every unit he wants, he has a very large advantage over a Terran who can do the same, which starts to occur at 6 gas. I guess that's why the 1-base play is really popular, it's not easy to win late. Also, FE loses to 4-gate, I haven't made it work yet. Maybe the Protoss are pushing the Terran in the direction of 1-basing, since the alternative just outright loses to 4-gate, and late-game does not benefit Terran very much.
To be fair, I think a lot of people do define 4-gate as kind of all-in(ish). I also don't know what you're talking about when you're saying that FE outright loses to a 4-gate. What kind of FE are you doing? What type of scouting do you do? What defenses do you put up when you see (or just suspect) it's a 4-gate?
I do a 2 rax (sometimes 1rax, depends on map and position) expand, works very well. Haven't lost due to the 4-gate or 3-gate+stargate builds yet (not because of the builds anyway).
I won't commentate who has the advantage mid to late game, I haven't explored enough of the game yet to commentate balance.
Edit: Also, I am starting to think the phrase "all-in" is getting really worn out. I really don't know what is defined as an "all-in" any more. Is it that you make a commitment? Or is it as soon as you use more than 5 workers in a push?
Really sorry that I went off topic. The way I usually win games in TvP these days is with 2rax FE into bio mech. Works fairly well. Have a lot of refining to do but it seems to work out if I play well.
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I fe on maps like LT or Meta (non close) and JB but on close position LT/Meta, Scrap, XNC etc I do 1 base pushes because the P will do the same and defending your expo on such maps is really not worth the trouble.
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@Aldehyde Some kind of 4 gates are definitly all ins, regardless how you wanna put it. As a protoss, i can tell you, if you korean 4 gate, you cut probes at around 20 ish, and mass up gateway units, try to build pylons to work in Zealots behind terran fortifications, you spend a lot of minerals doing that and you have to do a significant amount of damage.
All in means, if that attack, which is a special kind of timing attack fails horribly, you have literally no shot of getting back into the game, no chance. You cut probes to have that army at that time. If the army is gone and your opponent is not significantly crippled you lose for shure.
There are types and variants of the 4 gate which are not an all in, but that 4 gate is delayed and is most likely not designed to win right then and there. If you face a korean 4 gate or 10 Gate into 4 gate or something like that, you hold off the push without loosing or cutting too much SCVs and you won.
Timing is crucial when performing a 4-Gate.
The 10 Gate into 4 gate is an all out all-in and should hit with 6 Stalkers and 1 Zealot at about 5:30
The korean 4 Gate is an all in the P can recover from if he does significant damage to the T and it hits at about 6:30 ish.
The 4 Gate variant including 2 Assimilators that hits way later (past the 7:30 minute mark) is no all in at all and the sentries allow to retreat safely, but a 3 Raxing terran will most likely crush it if caught in the open field.
There are 1000 more variants which i don't even know about =)
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raven banshees stimmed mm + scvs at 11 minutes in tvp 1 gate FE into 4 gate 1 robo in pvt
Low masters
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Hello, OP, I'm in the master league aswell.
What can I say is that protoss is obviously stronger than terran late game so most players are just abusing these timing windows (like 8 and 12 minutes) to make insane pushes (there are a lot of different all-ins and semi all-ins that require a completely different anwser and are hard to predict) and outright win the game.
It's very hard to find macro PvTs these days.
I would think that a patch is required to fix this matchup by giving less power to terrans early game and less access to giant tech army of death to protoss in the late game.
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Romania991 Posts
On January 21 2011 20:39 Aldehyde wrote:
I do a 2 rax (sometimes 1rax, depends on map and position) expand, works very well. Haven't lost due to the 4-gate or 3-gate+stargate builds yet (not because of the builds anyway).
I won't commentate who has the advantage mid to late game, I haven't explored enough of the game yet to commentate balance.
nice! got any replays about holding a 3gate void ray push with 1 rax fe? troll
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@Baibars:
Yeah, I know what an all-in is per se but everyone is shouting all-in about everything. Gets kind of annoying to see after a while. Seems, to me, like you always have to do damage or retain your units when you do a push otherwise you're open to counter attacks.
For example, in TvZ I use a timing push after stim and +1 finishes. It consists of marines exclusively. If I don't do damage with it and also lose all my marines, the probability of me dying right then and there is pretty high but I still wouldn't call it all-in.
That's all I meant, even though I said it in a stupid way.
On January 21 2011 21:14 Manimal_pro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 20:39 Aldehyde wrote:
I do a 2 rax (sometimes 1rax, depends on map and position) expand, works very well. Haven't lost due to the 4-gate or 3-gate+stargate builds yet (not because of the builds anyway).
I won't commentate who has the advantage mid to late game, I haven't explored enough of the game yet to commentate balance.
nice! got any replays about holding a 3gate void ray push with 1 rax fe? troll
As I said, me doing a 1 rax expand depends on the map. I rarely do it. I do 2rax FE 85% of the time and 1rax the rest. But please, continue ignoring half my post and just focus on a small part of it.
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I 2 Rax FE and then do a larger scale, later push of the PoltPrime timing attack. It works wonders because at this point in the game, if you deny the first scouting observer, the Protoss will most likely commit to Colossus tech, which is absolutely terrible against mass banshees.
Here's the guide I made/follow on this build.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190
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As a mastersleague toss I´ll have to say that I have had more and more success in defending these allins (just abusing forcefields and be really slick about using every warpin from your gates until the push comes is usually the key), and I do not think that making this your standard build is the way to go about tvp.
The Protoss giant ball of doom is almost unstoppable in a heads up fight once the armies max out, and this is a fact that terrans have to keep in their minds when heading into a lategame tvp. However, the one thing that the protoss ball does not have is mobility. Terrans who abuses marauderdrops from the midgame and forward to really keep the protoss economy at bay the whole time are a pain in the ass to deal with since 2 medivacs with marauders craves like an half army to deal with since they are so beastly in small battles. I do believe that this is the way terrans have to play to be able to succeed in lategame tvp (I have no opinion wheater this makes a "balanced" game or not, it´s just the way I feel about the matchup).
I can understand that storm feels very hard to deal with for terrans since the bioball is fragile in big battles, but if you dont ever get to that huge fight your big deathball wont do you any good.
Also, thors are incredibly strong lategame as long as you have something to deal with those chargelots.
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