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1 rax long positions 2 rax shorter positions followed by a 1 rine 2 marauder/concussive shells push followed by expand and bunkering up.
get stim and add another couple raxes, then get 2 ebays and a factory and take all your gases
get 1+ armor/weapons, combat shields and then start your starport
make 2 medivacs first if possible to build up the energy and give mobility faster, unless you have no choice but to start vikings asap.
once starport is done put a tech lab on the rax, once you scout templar transition research blue flame and start making hellions, once blue flame is done swap fact onto a reactor and start pumping hellion/marauder/medivac
voila, you have now owned early pressure, collosi and high templar plus youve had harrassment options pretty much all game long.
make sure you are very active with your vikings trying to snipe collosi, do drops, and use your hellions very actively to snipe zealots/ high templar once it gets to that point
protoss can NOT go zealot/high templar vs marauder/hellion
if he transitions to air just spam marines/vikings and proceed to win game
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I think the Raven push is extremely effective against toss, but it is so easy to scout. If scouted, the real conflict is unit composition. To me this makes the build seem too fragile. It seems like relying on your opponent to respond in a less-than-optimal way in order to win.
As a low diamond P 1800, the most vulnerable I feel, is off 2 bases making the switch from 1 robo colli into the chargelot HT w/ amulet. That is the real crux of the P late game vs T and it seems like I lose most games when I have only those initial HTs with 1 storm each and the amulet is ticking away.
T simply cannot match the versatility and cost-effective nature of 10+ gateways in the late game. Let's say a P has charge and the amulet. He can make a Zealot and a HT for 150/150 ANYWHERE(in the power matrix), that is something that T simply cannot contend with.
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I prefer doing a 1/1/1 build with blue flame helions. You end up with 8 marines and the medivac with 3 helions and can ferry the rines in the base and distract attention while blue flame helions own probes. Ofc this is vulnerable to a 4 gate attack, though you can hold it with 2 well positioned bunkers and some scv's to repair. The transition is an expansion and marine/marauder/tank/medivac.
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Alot of people fastexpand/earlyexpand and proceeds too heavily on producing more workers then army. When anyone half decent scouts a fast expansion with little def they will do a timing push to punish you for it. When the expandin player loose to this 4-5 in a row he gets angry and shouts something like "FUCKING 1-BASE ALL IN EVERY TIME, JUST ONCE GIVE ME A MACROGAME" and trust me alot of all the complaints fit in this category.
TvP is a very weird matchup, on both sides there are people who thinks its a cakewalk and some who thinks it's hell.
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You can win macro games against toss but you need to be on top of drops and have good micro with emp ECT
Protoss think PvT is hell because they have trouble with all the one base pushes. Or they can't spread their units/forcefield well enough to deal with basic bio stuff
Terran think TvP is hell because they feel like they can't win once the P gets warp in storm and collossus. Probably get annoyed at some of the one base void ray builds too
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On January 22 2011 03:13 iEchoic wrote: You can do the NaDa 1rax FE (which is supply rax OC supply ref 3 marines, reactor, 2nd CC in base) very effectively. It's been working for me into the 3300+ master's range. However, on maps like steppes, delta quadrant, and other short maps, you may want to consider another strategy.
Check out NaDa vs oGsMC on Shakuras Plateau from the GSL season 4.
I do a very similar build on bigger maps.
On the smaller maps I like to open with a two rax, first techlab second reactor. I upgrade conc, sheilds, stim (in that order). My BO goes like this.
Supply, Racks, Ref, OC, supply, 3 marines before my techlab, 2nd barracks, conc, reactor on second barracks, in base command center, then sheilds. I get sheilds before stim because I personally like to play it defensively until i am ready to lift my command center to my natural. When i do this i push out with my army and do a little poke near my enemys base whil building 2-3 bunkers at my natural. If i think i can do damage i do, if not i just pull back to my bunkers that should be nearly completed and i macro up. 2 more barracks, get my gas going, and start teching towards medivacs / vikings for the col that are usually coming. (i scout before making vikings to make sure im correct, sometimes they trick me and go templars so i just make medis and ghosts)
The reason i move my army near their base is for three reasons. It gives me time to get my bunkers up, it allows me to see if they have taken their natural, and i can see their unit comp. The reason i dont do this with an scv is because sometimes if stim is finished i am able to do some real damage. I dont want to WIN the game with that attack i want to swap armies, because the smaller the protoss ball is the better. Id rather have 15 less stalkers/ zealots coming at me when im trying to fight off the col.
Just my 2 cents.
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Honestly, you can't engage Protoss head on in macro games, unless you have absolutely perfect EMPs. At 3k Masters, you could be ahead 1~2 bases with superior upgrades, but if they a-move, they can usually tear your shit apart with the second wave of reinforcements (HTs and Chargelots).
So if your going to macro, drop, drop, and drop some more while getting many Barracks and good economy, and don't let them take bases.
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So if your going to macro, drop, drop, and drop some more while getting many Barracks and good economy, and don't let them take bases.
This. Watch pretty much any tvp macro game and see that when the terran stops drop harassing, he starts losing.
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It seems like most of them either end with some kind of stim timing attack before storm is out, some kind of marine/tank/raven all-in or a long macro game. (~2700 master). If you want to win a macro game you should try and do economic damage before they have storm, and then just start harassing all over the place and expanding like mad while pumping mass MM. EMP also helps, but its more important that you are dropping him and getting in his grill at every opportunity.
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On January 25 2011 01:51 Mowr wrote:Show nested quote + So if your going to macro, drop, drop, and drop some more while getting many Barracks and good economy, and don't let them take bases.
This. Watch pretty much any tvp macro game and see that when the terran stops drop harassing, he starts losing.
How do you drop when he has lots of cannons, HT or just the ability to warp in HT to pwn your drops?
The thing is that late toss units are so much more cost effective that they can affford to build a lot of cannons at their main/naturals, so you basically cant drop. And from then on your preetty much death as terran unless he misplaces his HT so you can get lucky EMPs off. Ive been wondering whether thor/hellions transition could get work, but not sure.
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On January 21 2011 21:45 Grummler wrote: I do blueflame hellion drops, followed by some kind of biomech with heavy banshee count. Works ok'ish at around 2,4k master and you dont have to worry about the lategame. Its very harass orientated though.
Imho you cant transition into mech from pure MMM. It takes too long. Sure, there might be certain situations where it does work, but generally it wont. If you have 5+baracks, reactor starport, a lonely factory floating around somewhere and no single mech upgrade, it takes too long for your tank count to build up. There is a huugee timing window where a decent protoss can easily overrun you.
So, i do: 1-1-1 opening, gas before baracks, no 2nd gas before i expand. constant scv and marine production you have about 4 hellions with blueflame once the first medivac pops -->harass expand, get more factories, start tank production out of 2 factories and hellion production out of 1 with reactor. siege expand with bunkers in direction of your opponent, harass with hellions and banshee the whole time. BE ANNOYING!
You are vulnerable to 4gates, so you need to scout with your 1st hellion. Get need atleast 1 bunker at your choke. The Protoss will expect cloak banshees, but thats ok. Do you have any replays you could share?
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The more i play vs toss the more I am convincedthat you should 1 base all in every game. There is not a solid strategy. The toss army is tons more cost effective, he can be ahead in expanding no matter what you do, toss can reproduce much faster. To win TvP past 15 min you need 1000 lucky drops. The whole match up is broken and dumb to watch/play.
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On January 25 2011 02:11 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 01:51 Mowr wrote: So if your going to macro, drop, drop, and drop some more while getting many Barracks and good economy, and don't let them take bases.
This. Watch pretty much any tvp macro game and see that when the terran stops drop harassing, he starts losing. How do you drop when he has lots of cannons, HT or just the ability to warp in HT to pwn your drops? The thing is that late toss units are so much more cost effective that they can affford to build a lot of cannons at their main/naturals, so you basically cant drop. And from then on your preetty much death as terran unless he misplaces his HT so you can get lucky EMPs off. Ive been wondering whether thor/hellions transition could get work, but not sure. You don't, you pretty much just lose. At least that's what's been happening to me lately. I guess the only answer is dual/triple pronged attacks, to at least get some damage done. With sizable armies on each front capable of burning down cannons and at least stand up against a single wave of warp ins, it should be enough. At least, that's the only way I've been able to beat Protoss in the late game stages...
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As a random player, I want to state that I start feeling threatened as protoss by a terran player who has built up a well macro'd marauder heavy bioball with 6+ medivacs. So often a push comes without any sort of tech beyond barracks units, and I'll crush that.
When I draw Terran, I'll do a Polt timing attack, starting my CC about the time that my raven gets out.
When I scout that I'm fighting Raven based play as a protoss I just feedback the raven and go otherwise zealot heavy.(maybe 2-3 cannons in key positions if I'm worried about detection)
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Is there a detailed guide explaining the raven all in everyone is talking about?
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Zurich15223 Posts
On January 27 2011 17:32 DestroManiak wrote: Is there a detailed guide explaining the raven all in everyone is talking about? There are tons of variations. What they have in common is a raven, banshee(s) and marines. of 1 base. Idea is to drop a point defense drone to nullify stalkers and win the fight with the high DPS of marines and banshee. There are variations with/without stim/tanks/medivacs/SCV/etc.
It's strong against any stalker heavy / robo army naturally, but dies ridiculously fast against zealot / sentry heavy compositions.
The attractive thing from the Terran point of view is that the build negates pretty much all the countless 1 base aggressive build Protoss can do. It does reasonably well against 4 gate, denies DT, void ray, 3gate robo, and ends in a very strong counter attack.
However, it is very weak against 1 gate expand, as you don't have a strong attacking force until all the components (raven with energy, marines with stim, basnhee, etc) come together. So if you somehow know T is going that route the direct counter to this is 1 gate expand into speedlots with sentry.
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for a longer game you need to keep colossus down. just like tanks they reach a critical mass
that being said once storm is in play coupled with colossus you're in trouble. I haven't experimented with mech enough but the answer must lie in there somewhere
I would sort of hate to lose the power of early bio though. probably going to look for a transition from 2rax or 3rax into biomech.
need the mobility of bio early on for punishing eraly fe's and containing. ...well maybe you don't NEED it but I like the advantage it gives me.
something attractive about immobility in this matchup, actually, is that forcefields lose value.
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I main as zerg, and only play about 3-4 PvTs per week at 2600 diamond level. My experience is a little limited, as I fast expand off 1 gate in every game that isnt on close positions. I generally go for fast 5/6 gate + robo to pump observers (usually get at least 4, 2 initially and more when drops come into play) and then keep macro up, fast third and zealot legs -> late storms. heavy sentry emphasis. I can only remember one loss in the last 2 weeks, conc maurader expand pressure (nearly killed my expo) -> macro and hit a good timing push right before storm. One base timing pushes /w raven usually are held quite fine.
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