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On August 14 2010 15:21 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 14:53 Armsved wrote:On August 14 2010 14:37 Geo.Rion wrote: mutas are one of the msot cost inefficient unit in the game, the only 2 ways to win with mas muta: 1. opponent fails at defending the harass really badly 2. the opponent doesnt realize and makes a buch of marauderts/tanks. Idk how is that possible as he sees your mutas and has maphack scan, but still.
I tried mass muta with lings or banelings-lings against mech and had little success even against realtively bad opponents Cost inefficient against what? Thors? no. Marines? yes. However linx/baneling owns that. Just make sure you know what composition he's on and adjust. You said it was mech, so im guessing it wasnt marines. sure as hell they are cost inefficient against thor, even with the best split possible. I'm so upset when some ppl say muta > thor, even with a perfect split which is impossible in real action thors do decently against the same ammount of mutas / cost. And if you let your mutas clump up just for a second at the wrong time, you're done.
It doesn't matter if Mutas aren't cost efficient against thor, thors are the only mech units that shoot up. If you go nearly all mutas and the opponent has a mech army, you should be able to kill all the thors with your mutas. That means you win the fight. Note that gas is the restricting factor on both mutas and thors, and since you're almost always a base up (especially with fast expands), you have more gas.
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The move-stop is the best I've seen and had actually work in practice. For those who don't know how it works:
Mutas don't clump up when moving, only when attacking a specific target, so move your mutas a screen or two away from the target Thors, stop, spread them out manually if they don't spread out enough on their own. Move your Mutas about a screen PAST the Thors, and press Stop right when your mutas are directly on top of the Thors, you will have a solid spread and surround. From there, select a few mutas and micro as needed, but don't A-move with the whole bunch as this will undo your nice spread.
Especially if the Thors are in a close line, your mutas will do so much damage due to glaive bouncing, it is possible to come out ahead (you still have to have spent like 2x the gas initially).
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I wathced the reps ROFL, just as i thought the terrans were playing awful. Just to note, the comment below is a bit sarcastic maybe some might find it agressive, it's not, i just found the games funny, i love that Zergs are thinking and want to come up with new ways of beating T, keep it up, however i should write my crticism:
For those who dont want to watch the rep, here's a brief report: LT ZvT: Our zerg opens hatch first, the terran opens fast reapers. Now those of you who actually met properly done reaper rushes vs fast exp know that it is GG time. However the T made his rax near his CC, he waited a couple seconds to throw down the techlab, didnt rally his first reaper so it stayed for some more seconds, so it arrived late, and the bunker building attempt was just a waste of money. Well no problem, Terrans won from worse situations then this. However the T made 7 more reapers and done nothing with them. He once tried to hop in the main and kill sg but just got his ass kicked by an easy surround. The reapers were sitting on their asses. No Watchtower control, no 3rd base denial, nothing. So Z gets his third up, gets his mutas out slaughters the reapers who start randomly wonder at the middle of the map. And heads to the main. In the main he is greeted be 1 Thor 5 siegetanks and 10 hellions. The lone thor (i call him 14 minute Thor) had no scvs no turrets no marines, so yeah he died to 10+ mutas. The T had some not that well placed turrets, 2 in total at his nat so he soon had to evacuate that. I just stopped watching. Yes, mutas counter Thors, if you get 7 reapers, 10 hellions and 5 tanks befor getting your first thor, and the T lets you take over the map whenever you want.
ZvT on BS Again our friendly neighbour Zerg goes for a hatch first, our terran decides to double bunker rush, which is an utter failure, props for you though to be able to respound correctly, but still, the T loses 2 bunkers, marines, scvs, Zerg keeps his natural np. So out Terran is quite behind, and he decides to go colacked banshee. He gets 1 out, researches cloack, sends his banshee into the corner and lets her there. But he has a Fact with a techlab, so he might get out a Thor still in time. However he celverly supply blocks himself. Unfortunately his armory is on the middle of nothing, no turrets or anything nearby, mutas pick it up, he even sends 3 scvs there just as a bonus. The first Thor (14th minutes again) is picked up by 11-12 mutas, great. The 2nd thor pops though and it has 3 marines to support him, and a 4th coming soon, + a number of SCVs. The zerg's 10-11 mutas which are already +1 engage that "army" and what do you think happens? The mutas retreat after picking up the thor and a couple scvs, but losin all but 2 of their pack. So as you can clearly see mutas > thors. i quit watching at mutas being 2/1 terrans unit being 0/0, 4 base vs 2 base.
ZvT Steppes He fast expands AGAIN which is quite simply amazing, as i die 10-10 times when i try fast exping on SoW, as the rush distance tehre is like half of that on BS and LT crossmap. However now the T doesnt attack. instead he gets 2 factories with techlab and raxes and starts pumping marines and tanks. I'm sitting there and thinking, "How will this Zerg not die to this timing push?" he had 22 lings and 1 crawler on the field when the T had at leas 4 tanks and 14 marines, Spire just started. But the T seems very passive, doesnt attack, takes his exp with this badass army. I say to myself, that's okay, he has 2 facts with techlabs he has scan, he'll know mutas are on the way, 2 thors will pop, he'll be fine, and will take a third, slowpush etc. Did this happen? NO. He made more tanks and more marines, until he realized mutas are breating on his neck so he quickly got some out, so he survies. However he thinks upgrades are for pussies and keeps making more thors and tanks with marines, finally starts a +1 on mech too. By the time it finishes the Zerg is on 4 base, 2/1 upgrades and a bunch of banelings.
TL:DR: First game: hatch first vs failed rush, useless terra units, late thor 2nd game: hatch first vs really badly failing rush, losing the armory, supply blocking the thor 3rd game: super uber passive siege-tank loving terra just gets punished for being stubborn.
The terrans seemed to have a gameplan which did not involve defending against mutas. They did not adapt, they didnt get upgrades they werent putting pressure or in a bad way. Lot of players in diamond do that, especially terrans. They simply blind counter some builds and remain vulnerable to others, even though they have scan. Terran has the advantage that most of his unit mixes arent hard countered by anything really, so even when they lost it looks closer then it should, so they just keep doing it and probably have a good WR with it. It's actually a shame ppl like that are at diamond, but what you gonna do.
In conclusion Mutas do NOT counter Thors, unless the terran is failing really hard.
Though if you have a rep where the T isnt failing hardcore, or at least is aware of what you're doing and gets multiple thors out with support (marine/viking/raven/ slowpush with turrets, anything). When the T has 20+ worker s and you have 60+ workers because the T fails at his early game, well those dont really prove anythingf.
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I tried the build myself, had a couple success with it, and then get crushed by an opponent who did a timing push with some marines and a tank (before my muta came out).
I had (in a very similar way to your third replay, and as described by Geo.Rion just above) only ~20 zerglings (without speed, because I sucked ) and a spine crawler. The marine was aware of that, attacked me, and destroyed me
How would you have reacted ? I knew his push was coming, as I scouted it, and built more glings (and started researching speed -_-' ) but it was way too late.
Do not misunderstand me: I think going slings => mutas => broodlords is the way to go against Terran, especially mech, but I'm not good enough to do it properly, and I'm only asking advice, not criticizing the concept behind the build
Nuage.
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I personally alway build a bling nest and at least 3-4 blings. If nothing else it keeps T inside his base for the first few minutes of the game and gives you plenty of time to get those mutas out.
The bling nest is a necessity any time you know T is going bio or if you have no clue what he's doing and can't scout adequately IMO.
If you had made a bling nest and 4 blings you'd have spent 150 gas, that's 1 1/2 mutas and not much at all as far as spire timing. Would it have made the difference?
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Maybe. I'm certainly not good enough to do that kind of theorycrafting
I understand the value of banelings against bio, but is a small number of banelings (without speed) able to do anything to a sieged tank and 4 / 5 marines ? Yeah, of course, "hit them before they are camping on your doorstep" :p
Joke aside, I'll try that, thought.
Nuage.
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I feel like some posters are thinking too much of DPS vs DPS.
Now granted in a T and P player who has just recently picked up Z, I just played a few games where this has actually worked. now my opponents weren't amazing, but all at the official "diamond" level. Here is some points at why I think it can work:
1. If you know you aren't getting timing attacked. Yes its rare, but if u have time to get to those first 5-6 mutas u seem to be in decent, but not great shape. I acheived this by running a ling in and seeing one of my opponents have rax-lab fact-lacb and a starport going up. I knew I didn't need to make a single ling so i powered, hard.
2. The mobility of thors is retarded, I would say even worse than tanks in this manner. Odd concept, but the fact that t player will naturally be more cautious with their pricier thors(than tanks) means usually less aggressive attacks.
3. In a standard main, thors/turrets cant cover everything. There is not reason you shouldnt be able to find some sort of hole (thats what she said). And at some point, id'd say around 18-22ish mutas turrets don't do junk. And its 100 minerals down the drain, more importantly 2 less marines in a counter attack.
4. Expand everywhere, but the nat. I have expo'd across map and golds. Never at my nat. This isn't a new idea, but I think it is critical in this strategy. At the very least, he is going to take out ur expo, and you can have free reign in the t base. On top of that, if the force decides to move to ur main, you have main re-enforcements+plus ur mutas. The Terran does not have to mobility to retreat to their main like you the zerg do.
5. In my experience I like to transition to muta/ling. My not be the best transition, but it has worked for me. I think its possible because the best counters to muta and lings are marines and hellions, both require 50 and 100 minerals respectively. Minerals that have probably been wasted on rebuilt scvs and turrets.For once the t might be mineral starving and gas heavy.
Like I said before, I'm not gosu zerg player, but I do see some sort of potential in this play style. The key is to never encounter the t on his terms. Only on yours. Whether it be running around his main, or right at your doorstep.
Can people PLEASE stop theorycrafting, and just try it?
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On August 14 2010 17:14 zomgtossrush wrote: Can people PLEASE stop theorycrafting, and just try it?
Such wise words.
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On August 14 2010 17:23 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 17:14 zomgtossrush wrote: Can people PLEASE stop theorycrafting, and just try it? Such wise words. Yeah I know right? I'm not saying im like fucking amazing at that this and this build is fixing tvz, but I took the suggestion, added my own little style to it, and posted my experiences.
When all these OP bashes go play 10 games trying this strategy and it just fails hard everytime, then they should post.
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On August 14 2010 16:14 Geo.Rion wrote: I wathced the reps ROFL, just as i thought the terrans were playing awful.
I agree. I watched 2 out of 3 players: None showed that mutas counter Terran mech, but that bad players can lose.. (Not saying the tactic dont work)
1) Bunker rush.. and doesnt even bother salvaging them when the bunkers are dieing... 2) Ehm.. Hello Sim City with tanks and marines? A Terran that doesnt really do anything.
You get speedling speed really late. Early hellion harass would have killed all your drone line. 1 crawler dont make a difference if the Terran player runs past it.
Give replays against aggressive Terrans! And watch the replay before posting it, so you notice if the Terran does really big and obvious mistakes. Then the replays arent that interesting
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I thought it was standard to do muta ling bling against Terran? Atleast to transition into a late game strat like broods or ultras? I ALWAYS go muta lg vs Terran and have a good win % vs them. As a high plat player (450), I almost have no probs (unless my micro or macro slips which is the cause of ALL my losses) with terrans. The most Terran I lose to do an all in early bioball medivac drop. They go MMM and drop past my spine crawlers at my natural and bypass all my defenses early game. If I get mutas up, I can almost alway prolong the game to atleast 25-30 minutes, if not win outright. Mutas are SO good against Terran that I thought this was common knowlede. 14 pool 15 hatch with 3 spine crawlers at nay with an extra queen if needed and I am fine. I'm posting from my iPhone or else I'd post up a couple of my closer replays vs 500-600 plat Terran/random terrans.
If mutas aren't already widely regarded at the one thing that Zerg can do to survive to lategame vs Terran, I must say that most Zergs are missing a HUGE oppertunity for wins against them. Like most people, I acknowledge TvZ Imba but mutas allow for a hue advantage, even on two base into mass expo/muta. You really have to harass their scv line while they push out and hit your spine crawlers, then wait till they push in with thors and pick off siege tanks with mutas, and rines with blings. 3-4 thors are no match for 15 ligs and 10-15 mutas.
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That is exactly what I have been doing against Terran and surprisingly, it works really well. Thor and marines still rape air but its not as bad as the ridiculous Siege tanks and stim Marauder. Of course you have to micro your mutas and spread them out when fighting a thor and also harrass them properly. Don't just go for the mineral lines because normally there will be turrets up. Just hit any buildings not protected. Look specifically for add-ons and supply depos.
You need to get banelings for the marines because they are just so cost efficient against mutas. Mutas are clearly a superior T2 choice compared to damn hyrdas which are pretty much useless against Terran's ground bullshit. I have been winning lots of ZvT game since I adapted this strategy 1 or 2 weeks ago. You just have to becareful of early marine push or MM pushes before your mutas are out.
Edit: People shouldn't misunderstand that muta counter mech because they far from counter thors. You just have to micro properly and harrass the T to throw them off their game. Also, as mentioned above it is clearly a much better choice compared to Hydra and its impossible a decent terran won't attack you before you reach Hive tech.
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Just tried this against a Terran who used 2 rax -> expo -> Mech, and it worked like a charm. Granted, I'm only a mid-Platinum player, so take that as you will. Nonetheless, it's definitely something I'd recommend to all mid/low Zerg players. As long as the Terran doesn't have perfect anti-Muta mechanics, you can force him to stay in his 2 bases massing up marines, Thors and missile turrets, while you're free to expand all over the map (I ended the game with 5 bases, during which I built a Roach/Baneling army to counter his primarily Marine/Thor army and then teched to Ultras, which was a bit of overkill).
Sniping that first Thor is definitely key, and you also need to spread your Mutas out in advance.
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you discovered muta/baneling? good for you
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Thanks for the tips guys. Very helpful!
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On August 14 2010 16:14 Geo.Rion wrote: I wathced the reps ROFL, just as i thought the terrans were playing awful. Just to note, the comment below is a bit sarcastic maybe some might find it agressive, it's not, i just found the games funny, i love that Zergs are thinking and want to come up with new ways of beating T, keep it up, however i should write my crticism:
For those who dont want to watch the rep, here's a brief report: LT ZvT: Our zerg opens hatch first, the terran opens fast reapers. Now those of you who actually met properly done reaper rushes vs fast exp know that it is GG time. However the T made his rax near his CC, he waited a couple seconds to throw down the techlab, didnt rally his first reaper so it stayed for some more seconds, so it arrived late, and the bunker building attempt was just a waste of money. Well no problem, Terrans won from worse situations then this. However the T made 7 more reapers and done nothing with them. He once tried to hop in the main and kill sg but just got his ass kicked by an easy surround. The reapers were sitting on their asses. No Watchtower control, no 3rd base denial, nothing. So Z gets his third up, gets his mutas out slaughters the reapers who start randomly wonder at the middle of the map. And heads to the main. In the main he is greeted be 1 Thor 5 siegetanks and 10 hellions. The lone thor (i call him 14 minute Thor) had no scvs no turrets no marines, so yeah he died to 10+ mutas. The T had some not that well placed turrets, 2 in total at his nat so he soon had to evacuate that. I just stopped watching. Yes, mutas counter Thors, if you get 7 reapers, 10 hellions and 5 tanks befor getting your first thor, and the T lets you take over the map whenever you want.
ZvT on BS Again our friendly neighbour Zerg goes for a hatch first, our terran decides to double bunker rush, which is an utter failure, props for you though to be able to respound correctly, but still, the T loses 2 bunkers, marines, scvs, Zerg keeps his natural np. So out Terran is quite behind, and he decides to go colacked banshee. He gets 1 out, researches cloack, sends his banshee into the corner and lets her there. But he has a Fact with a techlab, so he might get out a Thor still in time. However he celverly supply blocks himself. Unfortunately his armory is on the middle of nothing, no turrets or anything nearby, mutas pick it up, he even sends 3 scvs there just as a bonus. The first Thor (14th minutes again) is picked up by 11-12 mutas, great. The 2nd thor pops though and it has 3 marines to support him, and a 4th coming soon, + a number of SCVs. The zerg's 10-11 mutas which are already +1 engage that "army" and what do you think happens? The mutas retreat after picking up the thor and a couple scvs, but losin all but 2 of their pack. So as you can clearly see mutas > thors. i quit watching at mutas being 2/1 terrans unit being 0/0, 4 base vs 2 base.
ZvT Steppes He fast expands AGAIN which is quite simply amazing, as i die 10-10 times when i try fast exping on SoW, as the rush distance tehre is like half of that on BS and LT crossmap. However now the T doesnt attack. instead he gets 2 factories with techlab and raxes and starts pumping marines and tanks. I'm sitting there and thinking, "How will this Zerg not die to this timing push?" he had 22 lings and 1 crawler on the field when the T had at leas 4 tanks and 14 marines, Spire just started. But the T seems very passive, doesnt attack, takes his exp with this badass army. I say to myself, that's okay, he has 2 facts with techlabs he has scan, he'll know mutas are on the way, 2 thors will pop, he'll be fine, and will take a third, slowpush etc. Did this happen? NO. He made more tanks and more marines, until he realized mutas are breating on his neck so he quickly got some out, so he survies. However he thinks upgrades are for pussies and keeps making more thors and tanks with marines, finally starts a +1 on mech too. By the time it finishes the Zerg is on 4 base, 2/1 upgrades and a bunch of banelings.
TL:DR: First game: hatch first vs failed rush, useless terra units, late thor 2nd game: hatch first vs really badly failing rush, losing the armory, supply blocking the thor 3rd game: super uber passive siege-tank loving terra just gets punished for being stubborn.
The terrans seemed to have a gameplan which did not involve defending against mutas. They did not adapt, they didnt get upgrades they werent putting pressure or in a bad way. Lot of players in diamond do that, especially terrans. They simply blind counter some builds and remain vulnerable to others, even though they have scan. Terran has the advantage that most of his unit mixes arent hard countered by anything really, so even when they lost it looks closer then it should, so they just keep doing it and probably have a good WR with it. It's actually a shame ppl like that are at diamond, but what you gonna do.
In conclusion Mutas do NOT counter Thors, unless the terran is failing really hard.
Though if you have a rep where the T isnt failing hardcore, or at least is aware of what you're doing and gets multiple thors out with support (marine/viking/raven/ slowpush with turrets, anything). When the T has 20+ worker s and you have 60+ workers because the T fails at his early game, well those dont really prove anythingf.
I have run out of replays but I will try to play some later today and upload some replays.
The problematic thing is that a lot of terrans are doing stuff like mass MMM/viking/mass ghosts at this level so it's not really demonstrating anything as muta simply roll over those.
Also, I always FE hatch first and I rarely have a problem with rushes. A lot of t's will bunker me but I'll overcome that decently well.
Oh, the one play u mentioned where I went for a thor and had 2 muta left over, I did that on purpose and do that frequently. B/c when I go for a thor surrounded by like 6 scv's, I lower his thor count and I kill all 6 scvs with splash. Meanwhile I have 10 more muta building at my base.
I know that my opponents and myself aren't the best players, and I've noted that in my OP. However, I'm just trying to let some other zergs know that with this build, I can beat most of the terrans at my level (600) and even better (up to like 800 rating). I'm sure a better zerg can improve the timing/decisions on the build and play it against the higher level terrans too (maybe yourself).
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As a terran player, mutalisk seems to be the hardest thing to deal with that zerg can do. Usually when I tell people that I seem to only lose TvZ when they go muta, they just tell me to make more thors or turrets... but it's just not that easy. Thors take a long time to make, and are horribly slow. If he's making a good number of mutalisks, you can't just park a thor at every base for defense, they'll just die, even when being repaired if the zerg doesn't horribly clump the mutas. Making a bunch of turrets isn't the easiest solution in the world either. A large group of mutalisks is going to be able to take out two turrets at a time with minimal losses, and any building not being protected by turrets is as good as gone. So you need triple coverage of your whole base with turrets? That gets expensive, and he's just going to come in and kill you with speedlings as you couldn't afford ground units. It's not impossible to beat, it's just extremely difficult, especially if your multitasking skills aren't excellent, which is everyone below high diamond.
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On August 14 2010 16:49 Nuage wrote:I tried the build myself, had a couple success with it, and then get crushed by an opponent who did a timing push with some marines and a tank (before my muta came out). I had (in a very similar way to your third replay, and as described by Geo.Rion just above) only ~20 zerglings (without speed, because I sucked ) and a spine crawler. The marine was aware of that, attacked me, and destroyed me How would you have reacted ? I knew his push was coming, as I scouted it, and built more glings (and started researching speed -_-' ) but it was way too late. Do not misunderstand me: I think going slings => mutas => broodlords is the way to go against Terran, especially mech, but I'm not good enough to do it properly, and I'm only asking advice, not criticizing the concept behind the build Nuage.
Basically, if his push starts coming out (seen by my ling in front of his base), i pump like 20 more speedling and hide my first 20 speedlings. By the time his push arrives, my lings just popped and i have a perfect surround.
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On August 14 2010 18:06 eivind wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 16:14 Geo.Rion wrote: I wathced the reps ROFL, just as i thought the terrans were playing awful.
I agree. I watched 2 out of 3 players: None showed that mutas counter Terran mech, but that bad players can lose.. (Not saying the tactic dont work) 1) Bunker rush.. and doesnt even bother salvaging them when the bunkers are dieing... 2) Ehm.. Hello Sim City with tanks and marines? A Terran that doesnt really do anything. You get speedling speed really late. Early hellion harass would have killed all your drone line. 1 crawler dont make a difference if the Terran player runs past it. Give replays against aggressive Terrans! And watch the replay before posting it, so you notice if the Terran does really big and obvious mistakes. Then the replays arent that interesting
Ok. I guess mutas countering terran mech isn't the best statement. THey're not a hard counter, like maurauder is to roaches.
But it's a style counter, as it gives you what you need to hit late game. How many times have you went a ground force and died to his maurauder/marine/thor push before you hit late game and felt like you had no control over the game?
I will try to post more reps I guess. My zvt's ran out on the "last 10 unsaved reps" thing.
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i've just watched the first video...
regardless of whether it's effective or not, this muta build, the terran player in the first game was...beyond horrible. let's not say anything about his macro. after scanning your spire, he continued to build hellions out of both his techlab factories, and proceeded to throw down random turrets around his base. somewhere around 6 minutes i believe, you could've 1aed yourway into his base and probably killed off all the scvs with your 12 speedlings.
he had an armory up very early with 2 techlab facs, however he decided to build a ton of hellions and not harass.
your strat aims to get mutas fast(atleast before enough thors are out to deal with your mutas), however you sat on 1 gas even after your expo is fully saturated, resulting in lack of gas (only enough for 6 mutas vs. like 10 larvae when spire popped).
i'm all for trying out this strat, mutas give insane map control, but how did you know he was going thors and not m/m/+m maybe? because a handful of lings and 3 spine crawlers won't hold even a 20 food m/m ball
again, this terran was horrible.
after watching the second video, and watching you run your mutas into his 2 thors limiting his thor count, and losing nearly 4 instantly, after having to back off, picking off 1 thor and before the marines get in range. at this point you had no banelings, he has 8 to 9 seige tanks, thors, and a lot of marines with stim. my question is, what's your answer to him 1a-ing your base? i understand that you'll have mutas in his base, it'll be a base trade, but if that was his goal as well and just lolturret spam, what do you have to answer to that? there is no way you'll be able to engage his army head on, nor are there infestors or roaches or hydras or anything else out in your base. this is a pure "harass heavy and hope i don't get attacked" build, it's nice, but when they just decided to lol-1a, it's painful to not be able to do anything in response when you're 1+base and like 30 food ahead.
EDIT: i'm currently switching to zerg (from toss to terran and now zerg) mid level diamond player, i'm not here to bash this strat by all means, but 400~600 level terran players "usually" aren't this passive/bad, if you can post replays of losing games, maybe it'll be easier to see how this strat can be improved. ie. would infestors early be more effective with FG be more effective in dealing with him pushing, or teching hydras etc etc.
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