South American Politics thread - Page 32
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2142 Posts
On August 12 2019 13:12 LG)Sabbath wrote: Big event in Argentina today, the opposition (CFK's party) just won the national primaries by a landslide, the peso has already dropped almost 10% in online trading sites time to go buy some stuff there :V | ||
GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22814 Posts
Here a civil rights activist is pushing for Maduro to be up on charges of the human rights abuses he does on a regular basis. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/12/venezuela-activist-calls-on-uk-to-back-icc-referral-over-human-rights-maduro Maduro showing he is not giving up easily by cracking down on his own military to make sure they know the options are loyalty or torture/death. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/world/americas/venezuela-military-maduro.html | ||
GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On August 14 2019 05:07 JimmiC wrote: I sure hope they do a lot better than the Maduro government. Which is highly possible since Maduro government is a narco based Mafia not socialist anyway. Here a civil rights activist is pushing for Maduro to be up on charges of the human rights abuses he does on a regular basis. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/12/venezuela-activist-calls-on-uk-to-back-icc-referral-over-human-rights-maduro Maduro showing he is not giving up easily by cracking down on his own military to make sure they know the options are loyalty or torture/death. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/world/americas/venezuela-military-maduro.html The bar is extremely low with Maduro so yes they will do better, but not that much. Maduro is the inevitable consequence of TRUE socialism, when the means of production are seized by the government. It is really pedant of you to rightly point at Maduro for all his crimes, but at the same time try to point it at him as the only responsible in the Venezulean mess, ignoring his predecessor and the idea him (Chavez) and Maduro believe and govern on; namely, SOCIALISM. Venezuela's downfall started 15 years ago and many of us remember when it did and when prominent american intelectuals supported the first tyrant (Chavez) and even the current tyrant until not long ago. Ample evidence of this can be found online. Vice President candidate Cristina Fernandez is an open Maduro supporter, and they have been caught with some serious corrupt stuff, it's incredible they are about to be re-elected. The most egregious cases were them killing a prosecutor looking into government support/cover up in the AMIA bombing, and a former vice ministry caught BURYING USD IN CASH ON A CHURCH AMIA bombing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_bombing In spanish, but you can see the pictures of the buried money lol: https://www.emol.com/noticias/Internacional/2016/06/18/808490/Allanan-convento-de-monjas-en-Argentina-donde-ex-viceministro-intento-esconder-dinero.html | ||
GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22814 Posts
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Yurie
11533 Posts
On August 14 2019 10:20 JimmiC wrote: It is mind boggling to me what level of corruption goes on in South America and seems somewhat accepted. Plenty of other places as well. Takes decades to turn society around on it. Usually requires decent salaries, oversight and draconian (at the start) punishments. All except the last one are often missing and has been for centuries in the places with worst corruption. Taking bribes as a low level public servant is how you get enough salary to live. Since that is known there is no oversight of them and they in turn accept the much worse ones their superiors take and so on up the chain. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22814 Posts
It does feel almost like tipping waitresses is here, for a long time we paid waitresses so poorly that the only way they made ends meat was through tips, now they get a decent wage (15 an hour) but the tips have remained so now they get paid quite well. My worry is that even if you upped the salary of the people the corruption is so accepted and so ingrained in the culture. While I agree that some oversight and severe punishments would help, so far whenever a new government gets in they claim this is what they are about, but really it is about removing the other guys corrupt people and replacing them with his own loyal corrupt guys. | ||
Yurie
11533 Posts
On August 14 2019 23:41 JimmiC wrote: Very true, do you think there is anything that can speed up the process? If the less corrupt nations passed laws that companies would be held accountable if they participated in corruption else where would that help? Or would those companies just not get any work in those nations? It does feel almost like tipping waitresses is here, for a long time we paid waitresses so poorly that the only way they made ends meat was through tips, now they get a decent wage (15 an hour) but the tips have remained so now they get paid quite well. My worry is that even if you upped the salary of the people the corruption is so accepted and so ingrained in the culture. While I agree that some oversight and severe punishments would help, so far whenever a new government gets in they claim this is what they are about, but really it is about removing the other guys corrupt people and replacing them with his own loyal corrupt guys. It is a cultural and societal issue. You can't really speed up changing people's minds. The simplest way to remove a lot now a days would be to automate it online. If there is no person that has to approve or reject it then there is nobody to bribe in the process. The problem is the things you can't automate which I don't really have any simple solution for. Also the company to company relations where you need to finance your tax department to do full audits of a lot of companies. Then repeat those next year with a different person for the same period so the first bribe isn't enough. | ||
GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On August 15 2019 00:20 Yurie wrote: It is a cultural and societal issue. You can't really speed up changing people's minds. The simplest way to remove a lot now a days would be to automate it online. If there is no person that has to approve or reject it then there is nobody to bribe in the process. The problem is the things you can't automate which I don't really have any simple solution for. Also the company to company relations where you need to finance your tax department to do full audits of a lot of companies. Then repeat those next year with a different person for the same period so the first bribe isn't enough. You need a smaller government, and for that you need a general belief among people that you can and will solve your problems, not the government. Big government = more money to loot. Not to mention taxes drowing people and companies. We have 5-6 people working in the private sector for every person dependant on government, while Argentina has close to 1-1 ratio. This is why Chile has a 10% poverty rate, and Argentina is bordering 40% and growing. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22814 Posts
On August 15 2019 03:42 GoTuNk! wrote: You need a smaller government, and for that you need a general belief among people that you can and will solve your problems, not the government. Big government = more money to loot. Not to mention taxes drowing people and companies. We have 5-6 people working in the private sector for every person dependant on government, while Argentina has close to 1-1 ratio. This is why Chile has a 10% poverty rate, and Argentina is bordering 40% and growing. Bigger or smaller government is not really the issue in my mind. It is efficiency of the government and value that the citizens get for their tax dollars. There are a lot of countries that have large governments and low corruption. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22814 Posts
How Maduro politicized the military and uses it to keep power and oppress the people. Maduro has even further politicized the Venezuelan military. The Directorate General of Military Counterintelligence (DGCIM), a feared internal surveillance organization, has agents infiltrated in every branch of the armed forces. All military personnel are obligated to report colleagues who openly criticize their working conditions or the regime itself. Those transgressions can then be punished with torture or arbitrary terms of imprisonment. To further deter potential disobedience among the troop rank and file, the regime harasses the families of soldiers who have been arrested or have deserted. Chávez cultivated key foreign allies that could share vast repertoires of repressive expertise with the Venezuelan security services. As a result, the Cuban intelligence service G2 now has an estimated 2,500 operatives embedded within the Venezuelan military, supporting DGCIM counterintelligence operations designed to detect and prevent any uprisings within regional commands. How Maduro continues to buy loyalty As a result, the Maduro regime has developed new revenue sources to ensure the continued loyalty of his ruling coalition. Under Chávez and Maduro, the Venezuelan military has converted Venezuela into a prominent drug transshipment point, exporting an estimated 400 metric tons of cocaine annually to North American and European markets. The recent economic collapse has made it harder for the National Guard and other nonstate actors to bring in funds by smuggling food or gasoline across the border. But they’ve replaced this revenue by extorting money from anyone who wants to flee the country, whether by legal or illegal border crossings. How the sanctions won't help free the people from Maduro Trump’s recent economic sanctions are likely to further divide the Venezuelan opposition and worsen the ongoing humanitarian crisis. Maduro suspended negotiations with the opposition Aug. 7, ostensibly to protest Washington’s new sanctions — giving it a convenient excuse to abandon the talks. Both in the Trump administration and within the Venezuelan opposition, some hard-liners believe that increasing economic pressure will ultimately weaken Maduro. But that view fails to consider the many different groups propping up the regime. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/08/14/heres-why-venezuelan-president-nicolas-maduro-is-still-power/ | ||
GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On August 15 2019 05:02 JimmiC wrote: Bigger or smaller government is not really the issue in my mind. It is efficiency of the government and value that the citizens get for their tax dollars. There are a lot of countries that have large governments and low corruption. Well that's because you seem hell bent on this "corruption" as Argentina's main problem. It's not; it's a symptom. The country has, for years on end, had a government that spends a lot more money than it makes, funding it by either printing money (causing inflation) and by getting loans from the FMI they will soon default and really crash the economy. Their taxes are too high as of now, and there is no way revenue would go up if they raised them. They also put all kinds of tariffs in imported products, making the general cost of goods even higher. Cutting government spending is the only solution, but they have a 100 year history of not understanding that. No country, even countries with big governments, run those kind of insane deficits. They run big governments because they could first afford them, and keep some sort of financial balance. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22814 Posts
On August 16 2019 09:57 GoTuNk! wrote: Well that's because you seem hell bent on this "corruption" as Argentina's main problem. It's not; it's a symptom. The country has, for years on end, had a government that spends a lot more money than it makes, funding it by either printing money (causing inflation) and by getting loans from the FMI they will soon default and really crash the economy. Their taxes are too high as of now, and there is no way revenue would go up if they raised them. They also put all kinds of tariffs in imported products, making the general cost of goods even higher. Cutting government spending is the only solution, but they have a 100 year history of not understanding that. No country, even countries with big governments, run those kind of insane deficits. They run big governments because they could first afford them, and keep some sort of financial balance. Perhaps, you likely know a lot more about Argentina's government then me. When I look up some quick numbers the US government spends 41.6% of their GDP and Argentina spends 41, the US also has huge deficits (record breaking). So I think there are other problems. I mention corruption because that just takes money out of the system to very few and does not help the people. When you look at that index scored out of 100 Argentina is a 40 and the us is 71 (which is actually pretty bad too). That is a pretty interesting index because the higher you get the more most people would want to live there and vice versa as you go down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index | ||
GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On August 16 2019 10:28 JimmiC wrote: Perhaps, you likely know a lot more about Argentina's government then me. When I look up some quick numbers the US government spends 41.6% of their GDP and Argentina spends 41, the US also has huge deficits (record breaking). So I think there are other problems. I mention corruption because that just takes money out of the system to very few and does not help the people. When you look at that index scored out of 100 Argentina is a 40 and the us is 71 (which is actually pretty bad too). That is a pretty interesting index because the higher you get the more most people would want to live there and vice versa as you go down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index The US debt is a problem, however the country is in a unique position because it controls the international standard currency, has a continuously growing economy, etc etc. Morever, it's deficit is funded only on debt that it is still expected to be able to pay, not on printing and causing inflation. The US economy basically makes the world spin, they can "afford" to have big debt, for now. The government does not default payments and won't anytime soon. Argentina on the other hand prints money to pay it's unsustainable programs, has no trade to lower the costs of good, has shit productivty, innovation, etc. As I said, certain countries can afford certain things, but a country with barely anything valuable cannot. The US government is basically a rich guy that expends a lot of money, the Argentinian government is a poor guy that expends a lot of money and multiple debtors will come down knocking doors soon. You know which other other country started printing money to pay welfare it could not fund? Venezuela. Corruption is bad but other countries in south america with higher perceived corruption do not have imploding economies. Peru has been improving for 20 years, and Paraguay doesn't seem to be imploding as of now. Finally I would say I'm more likely to say I'm right because I didn't pick up on this Argentina thing now, I've been saying it for ten years. I will also predict now shit will be a A LOT WORSE in 3-5 years. | ||
CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2351 Posts
On August 14 2019 23:41 JimmiC wrote: Very true, do you think there is anything that can speed up the process? If the less corrupt nations passed laws that companies would be held accountable if they participated in corruption else where would that help? Or would those companies just not get any work in those nations? It does feel almost like tipping waitresses is here, for a long time we paid waitresses so poorly that the only way they made ends meat was through tips, now they get a decent wage (15 an hour) but the tips have remained so now they get paid quite well. My worry is that even if you upped the salary of the people the corruption is so accepted and so ingrained in the culture. While I agree that some oversight and severe punishments would help, so far whenever a new government gets in they claim this is what they are about, but really it is about removing the other guys corrupt people and replacing them with his own loyal corrupt guys. This is a really boring answer but good statistics, record keeping and tracking of economical figures and transactions is vital to fighting corruption. This should be coupled with laws making these figures available to anyone and a well funded institution to collect and keep records. The ability to see budgets, track transactions, taxes and income, who owns what, who works where, changes in key statistics in any sector etc is vital for exposing corruption. It also leaves a paper trail that prosecutors or journalists can follow and hard evidence that corruption has taken place. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22814 Posts
On August 16 2019 22:46 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: This is a really boring answer but good statistics, record keeping and tracking of economical figures and transactions is vital to fighting corruption. This should be coupled with laws making these figures available to anyone and a well funded institution to collect and keep records. The ability to see budgets, track transactions, taxes and income, who owns what, who works where, changes in key statistics in any sector etc is vital for exposing corruption. It also leaves a paper trail that prosecutors or journalists can follow and hard evidence that corruption has taken place. Completely agree, here we talk a lot about transparency and it is a big pain in the ass but it puts all the information out there to be scrutinized. It also adds a layer to the decision making experience of, do I want to spend this money and explain why. There are some down sides but far more positives. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22814 Posts
On August 16 2019 22:30 GoTuNk! wrote: The US debt is a problem, however the country is in a unique position because it controls the international standard currency, has a continuously growing economy, etc etc. Morever, it's deficit is funded only on debt that it is still expected to be able to pay, not on printing and causing inflation. The US economy basically makes the world spin, they can "afford" to have big debt, for now. The government does not default payments and won't anytime soon. Argentina on the other hand prints money to pay it's unsustainable programs, has no trade to lower the costs of good, has shit productivty, innovation, etc. As I said, certain countries can afford certain things, but a country with barely anything valuable cannot. The US government is basically a rich guy that expends a lot of money, the Argentinian government is a poor guy that expends a lot of money and multiple debtors will come down knocking doors soon. You know which other other country started printing money to pay welfare it could not fund? Venezuela. Corruption is bad but other countries in south america with higher perceived corruption do not have imploding economies. Peru has been improving for 20 years, and Paraguay doesn't seem to be imploding as of now. Finally I would say I'm more likely to say I'm right because I didn't pick up on this Argentina thing now, I've been saying it for ten years. I will also predict now shit will be a A LOT WORSE in 3-5 years. Venezuela printing money was a symptom not a cause. They were taking in more than enough to pay for all their social programs, the issue was that money was going into the pockets of politicians and higher ups in the military. And now they are just full out drug dealers and illegal gold miners. You are right that when you pair high government spending with massive corruption it is worse than low government spending with massive corruption. I just think it would be better to attack the corruption. | ||
GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On August 16 2019 22:59 JimmiC wrote: Venezuela printing money was a symptom not a cause. They were taking in more than enough to pay for all their social programs, the issue was that money was going into the pockets of politicians and higher ups in the military. And now they are just full out drug dealers and illegal gold miners. You are right that when you pair high government spending with massive corruption it is worse than low government spending with massive corruption. I just think it would be better to attack the corruption. I don't understand your reticence to acknowledge basic reality. No amount of probity in politicans will make a government runing perpetually on deficit by printing money work. A guy who spends more than he earns, even if he gets in debt to help poor people, will eventually be bankrupt and pay the price. Argentina will never ever thrive until they reduce the number of government oficials and welfare programs. Morever, I would make the very sensible argument politicans who use unfunded public money to bribe people ("welfare" in exchange for votes) are most likely to be the worst kind of politicians and human beings. Edit: While not linear, there is a very strong correlation between smaller government and less perceived corruption. Scandinavian countries are the exception, not the norm. And Scandinavian governments are not runing on perpetual deficit. | ||
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