On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote: Macsed's response:
"说下当时情况吧,第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜,当然所有人都和我这么说,我也觉得他很菜,然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢,但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿,我就封了他得气,一旦封了他拿什么打我低保?可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的,因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的,所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的,因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束,然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了,当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误,但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了,因为我家里已经挡不住了,他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我,太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game."
On March 14 2019 06:14 pvsnp wrote: You know why Life got busted? Because prosecutors followed the money and discovered that he was paid for what he did. Boom, there's your permaban, your court sentence, your career and legacy disgraced.
Losing isn't a crime. Being an idiot isn't a crime. Playing hungover isn't a crime. And TL is not a court of law. The movement of betting lines is a far more solid source of suspicion than anything Macsed did in-game. And yes, I agree that it looks suspicious. Suspicion != proof.
The truth will not be found by poring over replays and flaming people online. A proper investigation deals in facts, not hysteria, and is conducted by professionals, not forum vigilantes. Macsed is already under scrutiny, so the only thing we as fans need to do is wait for the answers.
Maybe he's guilty, maybe he's innocent. Jumping to either of those conclusions based on the limited and circumstantial evidence available, is simply idiotic (and incidentally, a great example of why legal systems, standards of proof, and courts of law exist in the first place).
You are naive, you believe there will always be a money trail to follow. There are ways to circumvent that, what has gotten people convicted is when the actual people behind the matchfixing gets caught. The chat history and stuff like that. If you are careful there are ways to make all of that evidence pretty much impossible to find.
So here we are, with obvious matchfixers and a problem in our sport but we can't prove anything. We don't even know is chinese police is even looking into it but even if they did chances are it wouldn't be traceable.
So we have a few choices, accept the matchfixing "because we cant really prove it", tell everyone their innocent unless convicted and we will end up with all of us "knowing" matchfixing is rampant but that nothing is being done to stop it. I mean come on even you posters who dont want to clearly say that he is guilty thinks he is guilty. Its just obvious. Lets say we see the same thing happen every 5th or so game in the future, what to do. They are matchfixing but we cant "prove" it, we will lose interest in the tournaments, we will slowly but surely stop following as closely as we were and the scene will slowly "die".
Our other choice is to hope organizers take this seriously and that we do to, this is matchfixing and we should absolutely not accept it. It would be the nothing but bad for the scene we all love.
When was the last time a "known" matchfixer, which is to say somebody forum vigilantes wanted to crucify, was allowed to go free?
Because MKP was years ago, and if one internet-convicted "guilty" guy going free every few years is the cost of protecting innocents, I think that's a pretty good trade. I'm not seeing this catastrophe that you claim will happen if we don't lynch Macsed.
You're right, by the way, that I personally think he's guilty - based on what we know, with the caveat that we don't know everything. But it's not "innocent until proven guilty, except when I disagree." If you only stand for principles when they're convenient, then you don't have any.
1.) macsed cannon rushes for some reason, despite being vs a player he will NEVER lose to if he plays straightforward and carefully
2.) he sends his probe, and then immediately reveals his second probe (basically announcing that he is doing a cannon rush)
3.) doesn't cancel the cannon (i think?) that for some reason he builds in a spot for the zealot to safely kill
4.) he then loses both probes somehow, despite that being literally the most important thing to not have happen when executing a cannon rush, and incredibly easy to avoid
5.) despite knowing his opponent is proxy gating he doesn't wall in. he literally has extra money sitting there he's doing nothing with it but despite that he only builds one gateway that doesn't wall in above his ramp
6.) he then builds a CANNON in the face of the zealot, obviously knowing it will just die
7.) doesn't even try to re-wall when the zealot gets in.
8.) 10 seconds later or so tries to build another CANNON which will obviously just die again
9.) the best part in the entire game is when he fights the zealots with the probes. "hey look at my awesome probe micro, gonna get these zealots, I'm not gonna give up yet!". "keep fighting! I can still come back". "Oh wait the zealots are almost dead i guess i will just randomly run around with my probes instead of killing them"
w t f . . . people actually believe that this was a legit loss? wow, just wow.. There is no way that someone watches this and thinks it was a normal game and a legit loss..
On March 13 2019 22:48 NinjaNight wrote: If anyone still has serious doubts after posts 115 & 116 you probably won't be convinced until you have proof that's impossible to deny. Unfortunately we live in a world where such proof is very hard to come by. Or perhaps you haven't played protoss at a masters or higher level and that blinds you from seeing that a professional protoss cannot possibly play this way in a major tournament unless they want to lose.
Macsed needs to be given at least a temporary ban from starcraft for this immediately.
Yeah, let's punish a player we have no solid evidence against. Seriously?
How can you honestly believe there's no solid evidence?
Let's start with one aspect. Can you explain to me from the perspective of someone who believes he didn't matchfix why he suddenly pulled his probes off the 2 zealots they were attacking right when the zealots were about to die? I can tell you exactly why this is one piece of evidence (among many) that he was matchfixing in great detail.
I would like to emphasize how utterly ignorant it is to say we have no solid evidence. You're one of the people I mentioned who will only believe it once you have pure undeniable proof handed to you on a silver platter (which is nearly impossible for us to get). You won't accept any amount of evidence no matter how unlikely it could be that he's innocent.
I found so much evidence of matchfixing in this game that I don't think there can even be any reasonable doubt.
User was warned for this post
Considering how serious of an accusation this is, we should be waiting until we get undeniable proof.
I think you're most likely never getting undeniable proof even if it was matchfixing. I don't think this is the right approach.
You might want to check mr. Savior and mr. Life cases, certain former Prime team case and probably plenty of others.
Ah yes catching a couple guys surely means there weren't way more who went undiscovered.
If you don't have the evidence then we consider people innocent. That's how these things work in civilized countries, because incarcerating innocent people is one of the evilest things you can do to a person. So if the officials stay out of this it probably means nothing happened and we can't do anything about it as we cannot get the evidence.
I have to seriously question your understanding of this game if you really think there isn't a huge amount of evidence going against Macsed here. It's about showing beyond reasonable doubt, not about providing undeniable proof.
And trust me I have nothing against Macsed I'm just going after the truth here. I actually enjoy his playstyle when he attempts to win.
So what are your answers to these questions?
1) Why did he allow those 2 zealots to escape? He had a full surround with his probes attacking them and he suddenly pulls them away for no reason when the zealots are almost completely dead, letting them survive.
My answer: He purposely actively micro'd so as not to kill the opponent's zealots.
2) Why is he cannon rushing a guy who he would beat 100% of the time if he used a decent build?
My answer: He needed a cheesy strat like a cannon rush so it doesn't look too suspicious losing to such an inferior opponent because cheese is gimmicky.
3) Why is he giving away his cannon rush instantly by showing the probe?
My answer: He wanted the opponent to know.
4) Why did he attempt to complete his wall with a gateway plus a cannon when he could've easily completed the wall with just a gateway? Doing gateway + cannon allowed the opponent to super easily break the wall by targeting the cannon whereas a gateway would've kept him out for a little while.
My answer: This just absolutely doesn't happen unless he wants the zealot to get into his base and doesn't want it to look too suspicious that he's allowing it to happen
5) Why was he literally just moving his 2 probes back and forth next to his constructing cannon as the zealot was killing his cannon? No cancel because he was too busy uselessly moving his probes side to side for no reason at all.
My answer: He wanted his own cannon rush to fail
6) Why did the betting line change massively in a way that could only happen if someone was betting big money on Seventy to win a game? What kind of bettor would be so confident in a super inferior player to take a map?
My answer: Matchfixing
So as you can see everything perfectly lines up in favor of the matchfixing theory. I doubt you can come up with any convincing reasoning to explain all these things away.
On March 14 2019 06:14 pvsnp wrote: You know why Life got busted? Because prosecutors followed the money and discovered that he was paid for what he did. Boom, there's your permaban, your court sentence, your career and legacy disgraced.
Losing isn't a crime. Being an idiot isn't a crime. Playing hungover isn't a crime. And TL is not a court of law. The movement of betting lines is a far more solid source of suspicion than anything Macsed did in-game. And yes, I agree that it looks suspicious. Suspicion != proof.
The truth will not be found by poring over replays and flaming people online. A proper investigation deals in facts, not hysteria, and is conducted by professionals, not forum vigilantes. Macsed is already under scrutiny, so the only thing we as fans need to do is wait for the answers.
Maybe he's guilty, maybe he's innocent. Jumping to either of those conclusions based on the limited and circumstantial evidence available, is simply idiotic (and incidentally, a great example of why legal systems, standards of proof, and courts of law exist in the first place).
You are naive, you believe there will always be a money trail to follow. There are ways to circumvent that, what has gotten people convicted is when the actual people behind the matchfixing gets caught. The chat history and stuff like that. If you are careful there are ways to make all of that evidence pretty much impossible to find.
So here we are, with obvious matchfixers and a problem in our sport but we can't prove anything. We don't even know is chinese police is even looking into it but even if they did chances are it wouldn't be traceable.
So we have a few choices, accept the matchfixing "because we cant really prove it", tell everyone their innocent unless convicted and we will end up with all of us "knowing" matchfixing is rampant but that nothing is being done to stop it. I mean come on even you posters who dont want to clearly say that he is guilty thinks he is guilty. Its just obvious. Lets say we see the same thing happen every 5th or so game in the future, what to do. They are matchfixing but we cant "prove" it, we will lose interest in the tournaments, we will slowly but surely stop following as closely as we were and the scene will slowly "die".
Our other choice is to hope organizers take this seriously and that we do to, this is matchfixing and we should absolutely not accept it. It would be the nothing but bad for the scene we all love.
When was the last time a "known" matchfixer, which is to say somebody forum vigilantes wanted to crucify, was allowed to go free?
Because MKP was years ago, and if one internet-convicted "guilty" guy going free every few years is the cost of protecting innocents, I think that's a pretty good trade. I'm not seeing this catastrophe that you claim will happen if we don't lynch Macsed.
First thing, I'm not saying anyone should lynch Macsed, do you know what that word even means? I'm saying he matchfixed and our reaction should not be "so what we can't prove it and as long as we can't prove it its fine".
You have a very interesting take on this, so you believe we should regard Macsed as innocent because it was a long time ago since someone matchfixed this blatantly? So it matters how often it happens if we should react or not? If this happens again in the playoffs of WESG should X players also be free to go because its not many enough for you to take it seriously? How about if it happens at GSL best of 16 next? Is that were we draw the line and even though we let Macsed go and player X we will judge players Y harder because its becoming more common?
Doesn't sound very consistent to me, I believe everyone should get the same judgement, they will from me anyway. If its equally blatant of course, which it is here. This might be the first time in years or it is only the tip of the iceberg either way we can't know and should therefore take it seriously.
I don't really see the catastrophe I myself painted but it is a slippery slope, free one and you might as well free them all. Especially when it is this incredibly obvious, we might look back at this as the start of something really really bad just like the first game with San vs Dark all those years ago. I really hope that wont happen but I don't want to look back and think if only we as a community had reacted instead of sweeping it under the rug, this is something that effects the scene to a very high degree.
I'm platinum and I cannon-rush better than that. That was absurd. Like, even ignoring all the fishyness in MacSed's lack of defense at home, MacSed successfully got a lowground cannon up, and got the probes onto the highground. That should be, if not game-over, then at the very least a very difficult spot for Seventy to be in. MacSed had TWO probes that he lost to a single zealot. One of which somehow ATTACKED THE ZEALOT.
When was the last time you saw someone a-move their probes while cannon rushing? I don't even think silver leaguers do that.
I suppose we're meant to believe that the one probe attacking the zealot was to distract the zealot so that it wouldn't go after the other probe... Because that makes sense. Instead of, you know, getting in range of the lowground cannon... Which is cannon-rushing 101. I'm not one to call someone guilty right away (I reserved judgement about that last chinese matchfixing thing that happened during the ladder race for WCS) but this is just ridiculous.
Edit: It's both probes. He actually attacks with both probes, even though the zealot backs off because it's taking cannon-fire. Lol this is so blatant.
On March 14 2019 07:34 TheDougler wrote: I'm platinum and I cannon-rush better than that. That was absurd. Like, even ignoring all the fishyness in MacSed's lack of defense at home, MacSed successfully got a lowground cannon up, and got the probes onto the highground. That should be, if not game-over, then at the very least a very difficult spot for Seventy to be in. MacSed had TWO probes that he lost to a single zealot. One of which somehow ATTACKED THE ZEALOT.
When was the last time you saw someone a-move their probes while cannon rushing? I don't even think silver leaguers do that.
I suppose we're meant to believe that the one probe attacking the zealot was to distract the zealot so that it wouldn't go after the other probe... Because that makes sense. Instead of, you know, getting in range of the lowground cannon... Which is cannon-rushing 101. I'm not one to call someone guilty right away (I reserved judgement about that last chinese matchfixing thing that happened during the ladder race for WCS) but this is just ridiculous.
Ding ding ding!
It's absolutely incredible to me that some people here can't see this.
Macsed needs to be given at least a temporary ban from starcraft for this immediately.
Yeah, let's punish a player we have no solid evidence against. Seriously?
How can you honestly believe there's no solid evidence?
Let's start with one aspect. Can you explain to me from the perspective of someone who believes he didn't matchfix why he suddenly pulled his probes off the 2 zealots they were attacking right when the zealots were about to die? I can tell you exactly why this is one piece of evidence (among many) that he was matchfixing in great detail.
I would like to emphasize how utterly ignorant it is to say we have no solid evidence. You're one of the people I mentioned who will only believe it once you have pure undeniable proof handed to you on a silver platter (which is nearly impossible for us to get). You won't accept any amount of evidence no matter how unlikely it could be that he's innocent.
I found so much evidence of matchfixing in this game that I don't think there can even be any reasonable doubt.
User was warned for this post
Considering how serious of an accusation this is, we should be waiting until we get undeniable proof.
I think you're most likely never getting undeniable proof even if it was matchfixing. I don't think this is the right approach.
You might want to check mr. Savior and mr. Life cases, certain former Prime team case and probably plenty of others.
Ah yes catching a couple guys surely means there weren't way more who went undiscovered.
If you don't have the evidence then we consider people innocent. That's how these things work in civilized countries, because incarcerating innocent people is one of the evilest things you can do to a person. So if the officials stay out of this it probably means nothing happened and we can't do anything about it as we cannot get the evidence.
I have to seriously question your understanding of this game if you really think there isn't a huge amount of evidence going against Macsed here. It's about showing beyond reasonable doubt, not about providing undeniable proof.
And trust me I have nothing against Macsed I'm just going after the truth here. I actually enjoy his playstyle when he attempts to win.
So what are your answers to these questions?
1) Why did he allow those 2 zealots to escape? He had a full surround with his probes attacking them and he suddenly pulls them away for no reason when the zealots are almost completely dead, letting them survive.
My answer: He purposely actively micro'd so as not to kill the opponent's zealots.
2) Why is he cannon rushing a guy who he would beat 100% of the time if he used a decent build?
My answer: He needed a cheesy strat like a cannon rush so it doesn't look too suspicious losing to such an inferior opponent because cheese is gimmicky.
3) Why is he giving away his cannon rush instantly by showing the probe?
My answer: He wanted the opponent to know.
4) Why did he attempt to complete his wall with a gateway plus a cannon when he could've easily completed the wall with just a gateway? Doing gateway + cannon allowed the opponent to super easily break the wall by targeting the cannon whereas a gateway would've kept him out for a little while.
My answer: This just absolutely doesn't happen unless he wants the zealot to get into his base and doesn't want it to look too suspicious that he's allowing it to happen
5) Why was he literally just moving his 2 probes back and forth next to his constructing cannon as the zealot was killing his cannon? No cancel because he was too busy uselessly moving his probes side to side for no reason at all.
My answer: He wanted his own cannon rush to fail
6) Why did the betting line change massively in a way that could only happen if someone was betting big money on Seventy to win a game? What kind of bettor would be so confident in a super inferior player to take a map?
My answer: Matchfixing
So as you can see everything perfectly lines up in favor of the matchfixing theory. I doubt you can come up with any convincing reasoning to explain all these things away.
A textbook logical fallacy. Just because matchfixing is one possible explanation does not mean it is the only possible explanation.
Perhaps he's guilty, perhaps not, but this is not proof of either. Correlation does not imply causation.
On March 13 2019 23:27 deacon.frost wrote: [quote]
Yeah, let's punish a player we have no solid evidence against. Seriously?
How can you honestly believe there's no solid evidence?
Let's start with one aspect. Can you explain to me from the perspective of someone who believes he didn't matchfix why he suddenly pulled his probes off the 2 zealots they were attacking right when the zealots were about to die? I can tell you exactly why this is one piece of evidence (among many) that he was matchfixing in great detail.
I would like to emphasize how utterly ignorant it is to say we have no solid evidence. You're one of the people I mentioned who will only believe it once you have pure undeniable proof handed to you on a silver platter (which is nearly impossible for us to get). You won't accept any amount of evidence no matter how unlikely it could be that he's innocent.
I found so much evidence of matchfixing in this game that I don't think there can even be any reasonable doubt.
User was warned for this post
Considering how serious of an accusation this is, we should be waiting until we get undeniable proof.
I think you're most likely never getting undeniable proof even if it was matchfixing. I don't think this is the right approach.
You might want to check mr. Savior and mr. Life cases, certain former Prime team case and probably plenty of others.
Ah yes catching a couple guys surely means there weren't way more who went undiscovered.
If you don't have the evidence then we consider people innocent. That's how these things work in civilized countries, because incarcerating innocent people is one of the evilest things you can do to a person. So if the officials stay out of this it probably means nothing happened and we can't do anything about it as we cannot get the evidence.
I have to seriously question your understanding of this game if you really think there isn't a huge amount of evidence going against Macsed here. It's about showing beyond reasonable doubt, not about providing undeniable proof.
And trust me I have nothing against Macsed I'm just going after the truth here. I actually enjoy his playstyle when he attempts to win.
So what are your answers to these questions?
1) Why did he allow those 2 zealots to escape? He had a full surround with his probes attacking them and he suddenly pulls them away for no reason when the zealots are almost completely dead, letting them survive.
My answer: He purposely actively micro'd so as not to kill the opponent's zealots.
2) Why is he cannon rushing a guy who he would beat 100% of the time if he used a decent build?
My answer: He needed a cheesy strat like a cannon rush so it doesn't look too suspicious losing to such an inferior opponent because cheese is gimmicky.
3) Why is he giving away his cannon rush instantly by showing the probe?
My answer: He wanted the opponent to know.
4) Why did he attempt to complete his wall with a gateway plus a cannon when he could've easily completed the wall with just a gateway? Doing gateway + cannon allowed the opponent to super easily break the wall by targeting the cannon whereas a gateway would've kept him out for a little while.
My answer: This just absolutely doesn't happen unless he wants the zealot to get into his base and doesn't want it to look too suspicious that he's allowing it to happen
5) Why was he literally just moving his 2 probes back and forth next to his constructing cannon as the zealot was killing his cannon? No cancel because he was too busy uselessly moving his probes side to side for no reason at all.
My answer: He wanted his own cannon rush to fail
6) Why did the betting line change massively in a way that could only happen if someone was betting big money on Seventy to win a game? What kind of bettor would be so confident in a super inferior player to take a map?
My answer: Matchfixing
So as you can see everything perfectly lines up in favor of the matchfixing theory. I doubt you can come up with any convincing reasoning to explain all these things away.
A textbook logical fallacy. Just because matchfixing is one possible explanation does not mean it is the only possible explanation.
Correlation does not imply causation.
He's not saying it's the only possible explanation. He's saying it's the most likely explanation. That's a big difference.
Here's the craziest thing for me, it's related to his 5th point, but it's a separate point. His 5th point is about the cannon, this point is about the two probes:
2:19 on the game clock - Forward cannon dies 2:21 - probe 1 takes one hit, then the zealot starts attacking the highground cannon. 2:22 - lowground cannon shoots at zealot, zealot retreats 2:23 - the two probes a-move at the zealot, who is now out of range of the lowground cannon.
For what reason would those two probes ever a-move a zealot? I mean, he didn't even lose them by building a new cannon and letting them get killed. He suicides them into the zealot.
Edit: You just added a line about proof. The guy already said he's not trying to provide proof, he's trying to provide evidence and I think he's done that.
On March 14 2019 07:34 TheDougler wrote: I'm platinum and I cannon-rush better than that. That was absurd. Like, even ignoring all the fishyness in MacSed's lack of defense at home, MacSed successfully got a lowground cannon up, and got the probes onto the highground. That should be, if not game-over, then at the very least a very difficult spot for Seventy to be in. MacSed had TWO probes that he lost to a single zealot. One of which somehow ATTACKED THE ZEALOT.
When was the last time you saw someone a-move their probes while cannon rushing? I don't even think silver leaguers do that.
I suppose we're meant to believe that the one probe attacking the zealot was to distract the zealot so that it wouldn't go after the other probe... Because that makes sense. Instead of, you know, getting in range of the lowground cannon... Which is cannon-rushing 101. I'm not one to call someone guilty right away (I reserved judgement about that last chinese matchfixing thing that happened during the ladder race for WCS) but this is just ridiculous.
Ding ding ding!
It's absolutely incredible to me that some people here can't see this.
It's really bad, but it's not bad enough to never happen. If Macsed killed his own units, didn't build anything or just did absolutly nothing it would be an evidence. Right now the game looks like it "may" have been fixed, but the game itself isn't evidence. It's easy to look at a game for an hour and point out every mistake and say it never happen, but terrible games does happen.
He would not be the first pro to have lost to a Diamond/Plat, looking around at the first round of onlines cup/small or for fun lans you will find a good chunk of them. If there is evidence to find it won't come from the game, but from the outside: the betting line eventual social network conversation between the two players or with the bitter, maybe actual conversation someone heard ect...
In any cases, we can't look at that game and get anything more than it look fishy, let's wait for anything else.
Uh yeah, that was pretty questionable to say the least. At 2 minutes Macsed had enough money to do a 3 pylon wall on the high ground and a cannon finished on the low ground and instead did a single pylon followed by two obviously out of range cannons, one which wasn't even covered by the low ground cannon and could be killed by a zealot. Even people in NA diamond can cannon rush better than that.
On March 14 2019 06:14 pvsnp wrote: You know why Life got busted? Because prosecutors followed the money and discovered that he was paid for what he did. Boom, there's your permaban, your court sentence, your career and legacy disgraced.
Losing isn't a crime. Being an idiot isn't a crime. Playing hungover isn't a crime. And TL is not a court of law. The movement of betting lines is a far more solid source of suspicion than anything Macsed did in-game. And yes, I agree that it looks suspicious. Suspicion != proof.
The truth will not be found by poring over replays and flaming people online. A proper investigation deals in facts, not hysteria, and is conducted by professionals, not forum vigilantes. Macsed is already under scrutiny, so the only thing we as fans need to do is wait for the answers.
Maybe he's guilty, maybe he's innocent. Jumping to either of those conclusions based on the limited and circumstantial evidence available, is simply idiotic (and incidentally, a great example of why legal systems, standards of proof, and courts of law exist in the first place).
You are naive, you believe there will always be a money trail to follow. There are ways to circumvent that, what has gotten people convicted is when the actual people behind the matchfixing gets caught. The chat history and stuff like that. If you are careful there are ways to make all of that evidence pretty much impossible to find.
So here we are, with obvious matchfixers and a problem in our sport but we can't prove anything. We don't even know is chinese police is even looking into it but even if they did chances are it wouldn't be traceable.
So we have a few choices, accept the matchfixing "because we cant really prove it", tell everyone their innocent unless convicted and we will end up with all of us "knowing" matchfixing is rampant but that nothing is being done to stop it. I mean come on even you posters who dont want to clearly say that he is guilty thinks he is guilty. Its just obvious. Lets say we see the same thing happen every 5th or so game in the future, what to do. They are matchfixing but we cant "prove" it, we will lose interest in the tournaments, we will slowly but surely stop following as closely as we were and the scene will slowly "die".
Our other choice is to hope organizers take this seriously and that we do to, this is matchfixing and we should absolutely not accept it. It would be the nothing but bad for the scene we all love.
When was the last time a "known" matchfixer, which is to say somebody forum vigilantes wanted to crucify, was allowed to go free?
Because MKP was years ago, and if one internet-convicted "guilty" guy going free every few years is the cost of protecting innocents, I think that's a pretty good trade. I'm not seeing this catastrophe that you claim will happen if we don't lynch Macsed.
First thing, I'm not saying anyone should lynch Macsed, do you know what that word even means? I'm saying he matchfixed and our reaction should not be "so what we can't prove it and as long as we can't prove it its fine".
You have a very interesting take on this, so you believe we should regard Macsed as innocent because it was a long time ago since someone matchfixed this blatantly? So it matters how often it happens if we should react or not? If this happens again in the playoffs of WESG should X players also be free to go because its not many enough for you to take it seriously? How about if it happens at GSL best of 16 next? Is that were we draw the line and even though we let Macsed go and player X we will judge players Y harder because its becoming more common?
Doesn't sound very consistent to me, I believe everyone should get the same judgement, they will from me anyway. If its equally blatant of course, which it is here. This might be the first time in years or it is only the tip of the iceberg either way we can't know and should therefore take it seriously.
I don't really see the catastrophe I myself painted but it is a slippery slope, free one and you might as well free them all. Especially when it is this incredibly obvious, we might look back at this as the start of something really really bad just like the first game with San vs Dark all those years ago. I really hope that wont happen but I don't want to look back and think if only we as a community had reacted instead of sweeping it under the rug, this is something that effects the scene to a very high degree.
Presumption of innocence is one of the key principles of many legal systems, and naturally should not be compromised. However, there are cases and extenuating circumstances under which key legal principles can be suspended.
To use habeas corpus in the US as an example, it's a right of every person to know why they are legally detained. However, this principle can and has been suspended as per the Constitution "when in rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it." (U.S. CONST. art. I, § 9, cl. 2.)
I believe we should regard Macsed as innocent until he's proven guilty, since as far as I know, there is no impending catastrophe that would justify revoking his right to that presumption.
On March 14 2019 02:47 BlingBlang wrote: Marine King and Innovation definitely match-fixed towards the end of Proleague (both were in a slump and the games were dodgy too although the odds movement is almost 100% proof).
I almost hope we find out Innovation match fixed a game at one point because then it would be excessively difficult for people to argue that lifebans are good for the game. It's pretty obvious that Starcraft with Innovation playing and a match-fix at one time in the past is much better than Starcraft with no Innovation since the end of Proleague.
I've seen this argument made for CSGO too and again it needs to be said, no talent is ever worth the loss of integrity. If the legitimacy of the games ever comes into doubt, what's the point of even watching.
When the entire image of the scene is at stake, lifetime bans are more than warranted. Sponsors don't want to be associated with a tainted game, so a match-fixer would've endangered the livelihood of many more people than just himself. Not to mention (assisting with) stealing money is a criminal offence. Be glad they weren't thrown in prison.
A very poisoned outlook on matchfixing bans that I hate seeing surface every now and then. These professionals should know better.
An SC2 with a known matchfixer playing is an SC2 that invites dozens of known matchfixers until no game is sacred any more.
No it's not, this makes no sense. People will be lured into matchfixing no matter how getting caught is punished. Just make getting caught very expensive and you'll get the same level of disincentive without the loss of talent.
Its not about sending a message "don't do this because then you get punished" its about the integrity of the sport. The reason matchfixing is a huge deal in sports is because it literally kills the sport. The reason professional sports exist is because there is viewers, viewers pay money, buy merchandise and because there are viewers teams get sponsors and companies gets money through commercials.
Viewers are there because they are excited about the competitive side, teams and companies spends tons of money getting viewers invested. Invested in the outcome of matches, invested in teams, players or whatever. This is why world cups are so huge, because cheering for your own country is an effective way to get viewers invested. Now listen closely, it doesn't matter if its true or not, if viewers believe that the outcome of matches are determined from the start and that it isn't a real competitive game they will not watch the games. That is how professional sport scenes die, no viewers, no money, no money no players, no players no sport.
Letting a player continue to play that we as a viewers know have matchfixed will effect the whole scene and the viewers. When that player loses it will always be there in our minds, the voice that says "he matchfixed once, nothing to say he wouldn't do it again". As we all know if you are suspicious a players is trying to lose you will find mistakes, because you cant help looking for them. This will ruin the whole experience for viewers and the sport will suffer for it.
It won't affect "the viewers". It will affect you, and the people who agree with you, because you don't like it. You're using a rhetorical trick to pretend that your opinion represents the whole scene when it doesn't because it gives credence to your argument.
When I watch Starcraft I'd like to see people trying to win. When people match fix, they aren't trying to win, they rob me of my viewing pleasure, so I'm going to require some punishment. Once they are punished, I don't need them to never play again for "the integrity of the game", because that's actually some immaterial concept that only has the relevance that you give to it. If they play again and they try to win again, I can still take pleasure in watching them. There is absolutely no reason to assume that a player who match fixed in the past is more likely to match fix again after he's been caught.
On March 14 2019 07:34 TheDougler wrote: I'm platinum and I cannon-rush better than that. That was absurd. Like, even ignoring all the fishyness in MacSed's lack of defense at home, MacSed successfully got a lowground cannon up, and got the probes onto the highground. That should be, if not game-over, then at the very least a very difficult spot for Seventy to be in. MacSed had TWO probes that he lost to a single zealot. One of which somehow ATTACKED THE ZEALOT.
When was the last time you saw someone a-move their probes while cannon rushing? I don't even think silver leaguers do that.
I suppose we're meant to believe that the one probe attacking the zealot was to distract the zealot so that it wouldn't go after the other probe... Because that makes sense. Instead of, you know, getting in range of the lowground cannon... Which is cannon-rushing 101. I'm not one to call someone guilty right away (I reserved judgement about that last chinese matchfixing thing that happened during the ladder race for WCS) but this is just ridiculous.
Ding ding ding!
It's absolutely incredible to me that some people here can't see this.
It's really bad, but it's not bad enough to never happen. If Macsed killed his own units, didn't build anything or just did absolutly nothing it would be an evidence. Right now the game looks like it "may" have been fixed, but the game itself isn't evidence. It's easy to look at a game for an hour and point out every mistake and say it never happen, but terrible games does happen.
He would not be the first pro to have lost to a Diamond/Plat, looking around at the first round of onlines cup/small or for fun lans you will find a good chunk of them. If there is evidence to find it won't come from the game, but from the outside: the betting line eventual social network conversation between the two players or with the bitter, maybe actual conversation someone heard ect...
In any cases, we can't look at that game and get anything more than it look fishy, let's wait for anything else.
The accumulation of all these things in the same very short game? Yes it's actually more than bad enough to never happen. Trust me. The highest I've been is high masters, I probably only have low masters mechanics now due to inactivity but I would never in a million years make all the ridiculous mistakes Macsed did in this game if I was playing in a tournament.
Also allow me to repost a nice gem that I found on reddit. As a very successful bettor myself I agree with what he said...
"As a random dude who bets often on sports (live in Vegas), I definitely wouldn't expect to see a swing like that. If this was a UFC fight and the odds swung like that, or an NFL game with that line movement, it would be crazy to see that. You might see swings like that spread in a Marquee matchup where a whale places a giant bet, but never on a minor and not attention grabbing match. Those movements are highly questionable. When there's big bets that cause really weird swing like this, casinos usually temporarily close bets to investigate. However I doubt this type of work could be afforded for sc2 esport betting."
On March 14 2019 05:35 IshinShishi wrote: Here's a nice story. A dude comes back from a work trip and finds used condoms under his bed and a belt he is sure isnt his, the room reeks of sex. When he confronts his wife with what he has seen he sees a red mark on her neck, but she says she lent the room to her dear friend Laura, our dude then said that since he saw no definitive proof it didnt happen, then he kissed his wife and went to bed for some deserved peaceful sleep.
Yo I got one of my own.
A dude, a progamer, hell we'll call him Chinese for the sake of fun hypotheticals, is going on a work trip. He finds a diamond league player in his bracket in an MMR that isn't his. He tells his friend he's gonna fuck around because the dude can't possibly beat him anyway. In his match he finds out that he can in fact fuck around too hard and lose the game. He goes home and has his career destroyed because no one likes hard evidence.
On March 13 2019 23:27 deacon.frost wrote: [quote]
Yeah, let's punish a player we have no solid evidence against. Seriously?
How can you honestly believe there's no solid evidence?
Let's start with one aspect. Can you explain to me from the perspective of someone who believes he didn't matchfix why he suddenly pulled his probes off the 2 zealots they were attacking right when the zealots were about to die? I can tell you exactly why this is one piece of evidence (among many) that he was matchfixing in great detail.
I would like to emphasize how utterly ignorant it is to say we have no solid evidence. You're one of the people I mentioned who will only believe it once you have pure undeniable proof handed to you on a silver platter (which is nearly impossible for us to get). You won't accept any amount of evidence no matter how unlikely it could be that he's innocent.
I found so much evidence of matchfixing in this game that I don't think there can even be any reasonable doubt.
User was warned for this post
Considering how serious of an accusation this is, we should be waiting until we get undeniable proof.
I think you're most likely never getting undeniable proof even if it was matchfixing. I don't think this is the right approach.
You might want to check mr. Savior and mr. Life cases, certain former Prime team case and probably plenty of others.
Ah yes catching a couple guys surely means there weren't way more who went undiscovered.
If you don't have the evidence then we consider people innocent. That's how these things work in civilized countries, because incarcerating innocent people is one of the evilest things you can do to a person. So if the officials stay out of this it probably means nothing happened and we can't do anything about it as we cannot get the evidence.
I have to seriously question your understanding of this game if you really think there isn't a huge amount of evidence going against Macsed here. It's about showing beyond reasonable doubt, not about providing undeniable proof.
And trust me I have nothing against Macsed I'm just going after the truth here. I actually enjoy his playstyle when he attempts to win.
So what are your answers to these questions?
1) Why did he allow those 2 zealots to escape? He had a full surround with his probes attacking them and he suddenly pulls them away for no reason when the zealots are almost completely dead, letting them survive.
My answer: He purposely actively micro'd so as not to kill the opponent's zealots.
2) Why is he cannon rushing a guy who he would beat 100% of the time if he used a decent build?
My answer: He needed a cheesy strat like a cannon rush so it doesn't look too suspicious losing to such an inferior opponent because cheese is gimmicky.
3) Why is he giving away his cannon rush instantly by showing the probe?
My answer: He wanted the opponent to know.
4) Why did he attempt to complete his wall with a gateway plus a cannon when he could've easily completed the wall with just a gateway? Doing gateway + cannon allowed the opponent to super easily break the wall by targeting the cannon whereas a gateway would've kept him out for a little while.
My answer: This just absolutely doesn't happen unless he wants the zealot to get into his base and doesn't want it to look too suspicious that he's allowing it to happen
5) Why was he literally just moving his 2 probes back and forth next to his constructing cannon as the zealot was killing his cannon? No cancel because he was too busy uselessly moving his probes side to side for no reason at all.
My answer: He wanted his own cannon rush to fail
6) Why did the betting line change massively in a way that could only happen if someone was betting big money on Seventy to win a game? What kind of bettor would be so confident in a super inferior player to take a map?
My answer: Matchfixing
So as you can see everything perfectly lines up in favor of the matchfixing theory. I doubt you can come up with any convincing reasoning to explain all these things away.
A textbook logical fallacy. Just because matchfixing is one possible explanation does not mean it is the only possible explanation.
Perhaps he's guilty, perhaps not, but this is not proof of either. Correlation does not imply causation.
It is certain that he chose to lose the game. I don't really see how this can be disputed unless you never seen or played SC2 before. If there wasn't any suspicious gambling going on, we can only say that he chose to lose. Was the reason matchfixing? That is not something any of us can prove or disprove. It is the most reasonable explanation, when taken in with the suspicious gambling line change aspect.
On March 14 2019 05:35 IshinShishi wrote: Here's a nice story. A dude comes back from a work trip and finds used condoms under his bed and a belt he is sure isnt his, the room reeks of sex. When he confronts his wife with what he has seen he sees a red mark on her neck, but she says she lent the room to her dear friend Laura, our dude then said that since he saw no definitive proof it didnt happen, then he kissed his wife and went to bed for some deserved peaceful sleep.
Yo I got one of my own.
A dude, a progamer, hell we'll call him Chinese for the sake of fun hypotheticals, is going on a work trip. He finds a diamond league player in his bracket in an MMR that isn't his. He tells his friend he's gonna fuck around because the dude can't possibly beat him anyway. In his match he finds out that he can in fact fuck around too hard and lose the game. He goes home and has his career destroyed because no one likes hard evidence.
Damn stories are fun
And said friend decides to drop so much money gambling that his Chinese friend will lose, that it shifts the gambling odds of the match. Also said Chinese gamer chose to lose. Yep, that's matchfixing alright.
A textbook logical fallacy. Just because matchfixing is one possible explanation does not mean it is the only possible explanation.
Perhaps he's guilty, perhaps not, but this is not proof of either. Correlation does not imply causation.
It's the only explanation I can think of that perfectly fits the cirumstances. Where are your answers to those questions?
You combine these ridiculous things (that never happen to professional caliber players) all happening in one game with the extremely suspicious line movement and it very much does imply causation.
You're only needlessly confounding the issue by claiming this correlation does not imply causation bullshit.
A textbook logical fallacy. Just because matchfixing is one possible explanation does not mean it is the only possible explanation.
Perhaps he's guilty, perhaps not, but this is not proof of either. Correlation does not imply causation.
It's the only explanation I can think of that perfectly fits the cirumstances. Where are your answers to those questions?
You combine these ridiculous things (that never happen to professional caliber players) all happening in one game with the extremely suspicious line movement and it very much does imply causation.
You're only needlessly confounding the issue by claiming this correlation does not imply causation bullshit.
Yeah no. Intent is really hard to prove, with good reason, unless you can read minds. This guy gave a good example:
On March 14 2019 05:35 IshinShishi wrote: Here's a nice story. A dude comes back from a work trip and finds used condoms under his bed and a belt he is sure isnt his, the room reeks of sex. When he confronts his wife with what he has seen he sees a red mark on her neck, but she says she lent the room to her dear friend Laura, our dude then said that since he saw no definitive proof it didnt happen, then he kissed his wife and went to bed for some deserved peaceful sleep.
Yo I got one of my own.
A dude, a progamer, hell we'll call him Chinese for the sake of fun hypotheticals, is going on a work trip. He finds a diamond league player in his bracket in an MMR that isn't his. He tells his friend he's gonna fuck around because the dude can't possibly beat him anyway. In his match he finds out that he can in fact fuck around too hard and lose the game. He goes home and has his career destroyed because no one likes hard evidence.
A textbook logical fallacy. Just because matchfixing is one possible explanation does not mean it is the only possible explanation.
Perhaps he's guilty, perhaps not, but this is not proof of either. Correlation does not imply causation.
It's the only explanation I can think of that perfectly fits the cirumstances. Where are your answers to those questions?
You combine these ridiculous things (that never happen to professional caliber players) all happening in one game with the extremely suspicious line movement and it very much does imply causation.
You're only needlessly confounding the issue by claiming this correlation does not imply causation bullshit.
On March 14 2019 05:35 IshinShishi wrote: Here's a nice story. A dude comes back from a work trip and finds used condoms under his bed and a belt he is sure isnt his, the room reeks of sex. When he confronts his wife with what he has seen he sees a red mark on her neck, but she says she lent the room to her dear friend Laura, our dude then said that since he saw no definitive proof it didnt happen, then he kissed his wife and went to bed for some deserved peaceful sleep.
Yo I got one of my own.
A dude, a progamer, hell we'll call him Chinese for the sake of fun hypotheticals, is going on a work trip. He finds a diamond league player in his bracket in an MMR that isn't his. He tells his friend he's gonna fuck around because the dude can't possibly beat him anyway. In his match he finds out that he can in fact fuck around too hard and lose the game. He goes home and has his career destroyed because no one likes hard evidence.
Damn stories are fun
That's a terrible example. The game if you watched it goes beyond fucking around, but straight up trying to lose. It's on the level of killing your own units. Running away probes 1 second before killing both zealots and then refusing to kill either zealots when there were opportunities to do so safely. Letting your opponent know you are cheesing and cheesing badly and not bothering to counter their cheese.