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I like that they're takng it slow with updates right now. In my opinion the game is in a pretty good place right now, both design wise and balance wise. I'd like to see things play out for a while before any more changes.
The only change I think is required sometime in the future is some form of buff to the Battlecruiser. I see all other units in high-level tournaments on a regular basis right now ( Which is freaking amazing! ). My wish is mostly design based but I think that a viable Battlecruiser could help balance the lategame vs both Protoss and Zerg. I don't think Terran is massively underpowered lategame ( In terms of available power ) right now but they do require more effort imo ( Just play like Maru ).
I have riddled this post with "imo" since that all that it is. I love this game and as with everyone in here I just want to help it improve even more from what is already the best game in the world! Cheers!
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On July 21 2018 01:44 Aunvilgodess wrote: There is at the moment a lot of suggestions about buffing the BC, but imo the cons outweight the pros by far. Unless they make the unit godly, there are literally no cons.
On July 21 2018 01:44 Aunvilgodess wrote: I think Terran is fine if they don't sit around doing nothing. I do not believe that both players sitting around and macroing up needs to result in an even match. I only believe that the race that is required to be aggressive should not need to have way better multitasking, but that is an entirely different problem. If the aggressor doesn't need better multitasking, they automatically win. They definitely don't in SC2 since defending drops is a lot harder than shift clicking them. I'd say a good 50% of the design issues in SC2 are because things are significantly harder to defend than to execute.
On July 21 2018 01:44 Aunvilgodess wrote: Any mass air composition in general should not be viable at any point. Something about the irrelevance of terrain and unit collisions just makes it much less fun. Mass air shouldn't be viable in a space RTS game? Sometimes I wonder about people.
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On July 20 2018 03:45 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 03:37 JackONeill wrote:On July 20 2018 03:31 Fango wrote:
Lategame TvP is winnable for terran, even though protoss may be considered at an advantage. But terran is clearly favoured in the midgame, so should be in a stronger position going into the lategame anyway. Nonsense. The marauder buff made every pro terran "allin" or perform extraordinarily agressive 2 bases builds versus protoss because late game is near-unwinnable. Late game vs zerg is extremely hard but at least you can manoeuvrer against broodlords. I'd actually argue that late game TvP is much more of a concern that late game TvZ. Just because terrans are playing aggressive on 2-3 bases doesn't mean "lategame is unwinnable". It means being aggressive in the midgame is the most effective play. Pro players will do whatever strategy gives the best chance of success. That doesn't mean whatever they do is the only chance of success. TvZ is a different story, pro terrans generally aren't winning it anymore. TvZ has been at 45-46% recently, so obviously it's not a severe imbalance, but a lot of games seem to be over if zerg gets established on hive tech.
A lot of that has to do with the maps I think.
Darkness Sanctuary in particular is a dumb map that is borderline impossible to win against Zerg in the late game now.
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On July 21 2018 01:22 hiroshOne wrote: Queens (Infestors as well, vipers too) are countered hard by ghosts- try EMP and they are useless- but no... it's easier to queue some snipes on rapid fire and then go whine on forums. Broodlords are countered by ghost too via Snipe.
If u face Broodlord/Viper/Infestor/Queen army, which again- is super hard to control properly to their max efectiveness, you should have Ghosts and Ravens among with bio/tank or Thor/Viking in the same time. Ghosts countering Vioer/Infestor/Queen- really one or two EMP is enough, Raven for AAM and bio for dmg. Look how fast all disappears with -3 armour on it.
Now. I don't say that this Terran compositions is easy to control, but it's also the case for this Zerg composition. Only at the highest level of play we see this level of control and still it's not perfect.
Saying that Broodlord/Vioer/Infestor/Queen is a-move composition is just fucking bias- Avilo Level.
Yeah emp is super easy to land on any Zerg unit under a swarm of broodlings. The broodlord is the problem - not any of the other units - snipe is great if you decide to attack with only broodlords but that isnt a thing? This would be balanced out (and still retarded and horrendous to watch) if you gave Terran a massive T3 unit that had broodlord range air to ground. The only actual argument that has been made in defense of broodlords not being an a move unit is that you have to move command them back at some point - at the speed they move you can do this with negligible apm. LOL. There is literally no micro involved with the unit - you can't just rage that there is and make it so. Vipers/Infestors and Queens all have to cast a spell - well damn - that's super difficult and falls into the same argument that Protoss players make about how hard it is to micro their death-ball. To test this insane argument you are making I would propose the following scenario:
Fast forward in a replay to a split map 10K/10K bank ultimate comp vs ultimate comp situation Tvz and have Maru take over the Terran and a random NA GM zerg player take over the Zerg - log results.
Do the same thing except now get a random NA GM Terran player vs. Rogue from a midgame 2-1-1 position (where Terran is supposed to have an of edge )
Rogue won't drop a game - because even tho Terran has an advantage - his multi/micro will allow him to overwhelm the Terran. Maru will drop a fair share of the games because the situation doesn't allow for his mechanics to help him. It will rely on the zerg player doing something terrible for him to win.
That existing in the game isn't good for any matchup imo.
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Same thing I can say about Maru, being in disadvantage , he can pull off the game only with his micro. What's wrong with that? Isn't this what that game is about? Being crybaby because someone is better in the game?
Don't u see that I can say same thing about Infestors or Vipers for example? Easy to say that u have funghals or Blinding clouds or Parasitic Bombs, it's super easy to cast them when Terran has ghosts under his Liberators, when u risk EMP on all your casters- uncounterable by Zerg.
Late game Zerg comp vs Lategsme Terran comp is kind of dance whenre one mistake can cost u the game, but also both sides has a route of escape from engagement if things go wrong. Zerg less because Broodlords are less mobile than ghosts and bio.
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On July 21 2018 06:33 hiroshOne wrote: Same thing I can say about Maru, being in disadvantage , he can pull off the game only with his micro. What's wrong with that? Isn't this what that game is about? Being crybaby because someone is better in the game?
Don't u see that I can say same thing about Infestors or Vipers for example? Easy to say that u have funghals or Blinding clouds or Parasitic Bombs, it's super easy to cast them when Terran has ghosts under his Liberators, when u risk EMP on all your casters- uncounterable by Zerg.
Late game Zerg comp vs Lategsme Terran comp is kind of dance whenre one mistake can cost u the game, but also both sides has a route of escape from engagement if things go wrong. Zerg less because Broodlords are less mobile than ghosts and bio. Having your vipers EMP'ed is not automatically game over in a split map situation since you can retreat back and just regen their energy relatively quickly.
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On July 21 2018 05:37 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 01:22 hiroshOne wrote: Queens (Infestors as well, vipers too) are countered hard by ghosts- try EMP and they are useless- but no... it's easier to queue some snipes on rapid fire and then go whine on forums. Broodlords are countered by ghost too via Snipe.
If u face Broodlord/Viper/Infestor/Queen army, which again- is super hard to control properly to their max efectiveness, you should have Ghosts and Ravens among with bio/tank or Thor/Viking in the same time. Ghosts countering Vioer/Infestor/Queen- really one or two EMP is enough, Raven for AAM and bio for dmg. Look how fast all disappears with -3 armour on it.
Now. I don't say that this Terran compositions is easy to control, but it's also the case for this Zerg composition. Only at the highest level of play we see this level of control and still it's not perfect.
Saying that Broodlord/Vioer/Infestor/Queen is a-move composition is just fucking bias- Avilo Level. Yeah emp is super easy to land on any Zerg unit under a swarm of broodlings. The broodlord is the problem - not any of the other units - snipe is great if you decide to attack with only broodlords but that isnt a thing? This would be balanced out (and still retarded and horrendous to watch) if you gave Terran a massive T3 unit that had broodlord range air to ground. The only actual argument that has been made in defense of broodlords not being an a move unit is that you have to move command them back at some point - at the speed they move you can do this with negligible apm. LOL. There is literally no micro involved with the unit - you can't just rage that there is and make it so. Vipers/Infestors and Queens all have to cast a spell - well damn - that's super difficult and falls into the same argument that Protoss players make about how hard it is to micro their death-ball. To test this insane argument you are making I would propose the following scenario: Fast forward in a replay to a split map 10K/10K bank ultimate comp vs ultimate comp situation Tvz and have Maru take over the Terran and a random NA GM zerg player take over the Zerg - log results. Do the same thing except now get a random NA GM Terran player vs. Rogue from a midgame 2-1-1 position (where Terran is supposed to have an of edge ) Rogue won't drop a game - because even tho Terran has an advantage - his multi/micro will allow him to overwhelm the Terran. Maru will drop a fair share of the games because the situation doesn't allow for his mechanics to help him. It will rely on the zerg player doing something terrible for him to win. That existing in the game isn't good for any matchup imo.
Dude really? I mean having a discussion requires both sides to be arguing in good faith. The idea that maru would drop a fair share of games against random NA gms given the situation you created isn't really believable or backed up by any reason. If you want changes come out and say them; don't make up random ideas to 'support' them.
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Lol. I think this community feedback says at least one of two things: 1) we do not care enough about sc2 to think about it 2) we have no idea about what is going on
For about nine months at least half the matches of about every tournament were ZvZ. The latest WCs Valencia is a nice example for that and it became most visible in the playoffs: The winner bracket was essentially ZvZ only. It is unbearable. This overrepresentation of one specific faction should teach everybody that the "equal win rate" argument has been degraded to phony babbling.
In about the same timeframe the game has become a special case of one sided. We see so many matches that end 2:0 or 3:0. The casters do their best to picture games as close, or fights as unpredictable, but the results speak a very different language. A single game might sometimes appear close, but it probably wasn't, when the entire series ends without dropping a game. There is a strange volatility in the game that makes the individual either destroy their opponent or be as successful as I would be in their place. On stage, we don't see any effective improvisation anymore. Nothing cool, no surprises. We might hear people say something else, but the results do not reflect those assessments.
On the whole the entire lot thing keeps going from bad to worse. Quite sad.
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Gotta say, I think you guys are arguing about the wrong thing. It’s true enough that lategame armies are a bitch to manage. So many moving parts, so many control groups, so many chances to screw up. But I think that's kind of beside the point.
The point is twofold:
First, enough Ghosts with enough energy and proper control, assuming they’re in a properly sieged and fortified defensive setup, can smash any army that Zerg can produce. The ultimate Terran army beats the ultimate Zerg army, hands down. Planetaries, Liberators, and Marauders shield the Ghosts from the Ling/Bane/Broodlings and let them get their spells off. Barring lucky fungals that catch the entire Ghost ball or an equivalent miracle, EMP will deny spellcasting and snipes will slaughter the Zerg tech units.
Second, Zerg has a massive advantage and will almost certainly win in the lategame. This is not because the ultimate army for Zerg is stronger–it’s weaker. It’s simply because the lategame reverses the conventional roles of each race, and Zerg gains an inherent advantage from that. In normal TvZ, Terran is the aggressor and Zerg the defender. Zerg therefore has certain advantages to facilitate that defense. Like creep, for vision and rapid army movement. It also has the production advantage of larva, which allow army units to be produced on-demand. As the defender, these advantages are necessary to survive. Of course, Terran has offensive advantages too. Mules let the Terran produce fewer scvs and more army, planetaries reduce the need for static defense, and so forth. However, in the lategame, the roles flip. Terran becomes the defender and Zerg the aggressor. And as the aggressor, Zerg’s advantages become overwhelmingly strong whereas Terran’s defensive advantages dwindle to irrelevance, and thus Zerg gains a massive advantage over Terran.
I mentioned earlier that the ultimate Terran army can beat the ultimate Zerg army. Problem is, the ultimate Terran army is slow as fuck and extremely clunky to reposition, because of the need for unsieging and resieging, presplitting, etc. Because Ghosts are the critical unit, it is also hindered by the need to accommodate and protect slow ground units around terrain features. Now to be fair, the ultimate Zerg army is also slow as fuck, despite being more reliant on air units; nobody says BLs are fast.
The key here is that ultimate armies don’t actually matter. The lategame is not about ultimate armies. It’s about the economy.
Think for a moment about a generic TvZ lategame. The map is split in two. The Zerg half, and probably a fair chunk of the Terran half, is covered in creep. Terran is all turtled up behind sensor towers and planetaries and turrets. Both sides have massive banks (Zerg moreso) and both sides have these enormous lategame deathballs squaring off on one side of the map, near Terran’s fifth or sixth.
If Zerg is dumb, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go “Hell yeah this army is invincible! Imma go crush that Terran scrub!” They muster up all their micro skill and go for it. Then the Terran army goes pew pew and suddenly that mighty Zerg army is a puddle of blood. The dumb Zerg, in a fit of petulance, reaches for his enormous checkbook and writes himself a big old check for a whole new LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army. Rinse and repeat until the dumb Zerg realizes that the universe is finite, its resources finite, and promptly dies.
But if the Zerg is smart, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go….absolutely nowhere. That mighty Zerg army does nothing at all. It just sits on its ass, right on the edge of Terran’s vision, occasionally poking and posturing and reminding Terran of the horrible swarmy doom that it can unleash at any moment. Any moment now. Aaaaany moment.
Instead, the smart Zerg takes some of the smallest, most insignificant units in that mighty Zerg army, namely Ling/Bane, and runs it to the opposite side of the map, to Terran’s fourth or sixth or whatever. While both players are staring at their enormous deathballs, he amoves or shift-clicks into the base, and gets cleaned up after blowing up some supply depots or something. Then he makes some more Ling/Bane and does it again, at that same base, or another base, doesn’t matter just as long as it’s far away from the big Terran deathball. None of this will accomplish very much, just killing the stray depot or sensor tower or what have you, slowly eroding the walls of the Terran turtle. Attention, after all, is a resource just like minerals or gas, and just as finite. Terran doesn’t have time to fix walls–at least not all of them–when there’s a horrible swarmy doom on his doorstep.
Then the Zerg takes a little more supply, and makes a bunch of banes. A whole lot of banes. He runs them past the broken-down walls and straight into a planetary. Boom. Suddenly Terran is down a base. This, of course, gets a reaction from the Terran. He needs that base, after all. So he sends an scv to build a new CC, or he floats over one of his orbitals, or whatever. Whatever it is, it’s more vulnerable than a planetary was, so it’s a straightforward matter for the Zerg to send a bit more Ling/Bane and deny it. Now the Terran wises up, assuming he didn’t the first time, and sends a couple medivacs worth of bio to clean up the nuisance and secure the expansion. So the next time, Zerg sends the Ling/Bane to a different base. If he’s feeling bold, perhaps he sends some hydras or even ultras along with them. Maybe he even attacks two bases at once. Maybe once Terran has pulled scvs, he burrows some cracklings in the mineral line, or banes along the reinforcement path. You get the idea. Soon enough the Terran is running everywhere, trying to put out fires. Except more of them keep springing up. Except the Ling/Bane arsonists are faster than the MMM firefighters. Except Zerg has a bigger bank than he does, and the larva to use it, and an extra base or two mining because Terran’s fourth or fifth or sixth is always on fire.
The thing is, Ling/Bane is fast. Really fast. When the map is mostly purple, Ling/Bane gets anywhere in a real hurry. As the defender, this is essential in order to react to drops. As the aggressor though, Ling/Bane runs rings around Bio. And Terran's own advantages don't scale the same way. Mules are great but somewhat less important with huge banks. While they do allow larger Terran armies, the issue is not army size but rather army position. Even a maxed army cannot defend everywhere. Planetaries are great against smaller harass but enough banes can and do defeat them. When Terran is the one defending, stimmed bio arrives to the fight half-dead. Boost is a slow reaction when the first warning is banes exploding. And when both players are paying attention to their huge deathballs, amoved Ling/Bane blows up amoved Bio. Cracklings tear buildings down in record time, and while using banes against buildings is inefficient, that doesn’t matter so much when Zerg has an extra base or two mining.
And all the while, Zerg has an enormous deathball waiting patiently outside the Terran base. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much patience and move out of that fortified position with turrets and planetaries and liberators galore. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much economy and stop replacing those expensive Ghosts. Waiting for victory.
So maybe Terran doesn’t take the bait and waits, putting out fires as best as he can, trying to harass a Zerg with vision of half the map and then some. Eventually Terran’s smaller bank runs dry and his hope with it. Death by a thousand cuts. Zerg wins.
Or Terran does take the bait and moves out, onto creep, into a spore forest, trying to smash the Zerg in a decisive engagement. Even if he wins the fight by some miracle, what then? Go deep onto creep to kill one hatchery and get surrounded by the remax? Or inch forward, clear a bit of creep, and hope to pull off another miracle against the remax? Death by overextension. Zerg wins.
I think you get the picture. People often say that Terran has a weak lategame against Zerg, which I don’t think is entirely accurate. Terran has a strong lategame. It just doesn’t matter, because lategame isn’t about strength on a fundamental level. It’s about the economy.
Sorry for the wall of text. TL;DR lategame TvZ is a game of economy with Terran defending and Zerg attacking, and inherently favors Zerg.
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On July 21 2018 03:55 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 01:44 Aunvilgodess wrote: There is at the moment a lot of suggestions about buffing the BC, but imo the cons outweight the pros by far. Unless they make the unit godly, there are literally no cons. Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 01:44 Aunvilgodess wrote: I think Terran is fine if they don't sit around doing nothing. I do not believe that both players sitting around and macroing up needs to result in an even match. I only believe that the race that is required to be aggressive should not need to have way better multitasking, but that is an entirely different problem. If the aggressor doesn't need better multitasking, they automatically win. They definitely don't in SC2 since defending drops is a lot harder than shift clicking them. I'd say a good 50% of the design issues in SC2 are because things are significantly harder to defend than to execute. Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 01:44 Aunvilgodess wrote: Any mass air composition in general should not be viable at any point. Something about the irrelevance of terrain and unit collisions just makes it much less fun. Mass air shouldn't be viable in a space RTS game? Sometimes I wonder about people. tbh I agree mass air just kinda sucks in terms of fun. At least for me I prity much never enjoy playing with or against a mass air death ball because the nature of big blobs of slow air units is just less conducive to fun unit micro, tactics and fast paced action. This is the one aspect of rts I think starcraft just does not nail well. I always have fantasized about what sc2 would be like if air units functioned like they did In Red alert three where helicopter like units still functioned in the blooby air deathball kind of way but factions also had access to air units that had to refuel and get bombs from airports. This made it so that air units required a significant amount of babysitting since you would constantly be moving them out on the map than back to your base to resupply and it also allowed air units to on a pound for pound basis be significantly stronger and more impact-full in small numbers than they are in sc2 because they were only very impact full for a specific amount of time in a very localized area.
I think the problem with sc2 air units in general is that they are all "hellicopters" they are all units that just bypass terrain and blob up. This would not be so bad if it wern't for the other problem with sc2 units, that at the higher tiers air units are more powerfull than there ground unit counterparts so they get all the advantages of being an air unit without any significant drawbacks. I think this is a result of sc2 not having dedicated air to air or ground to air specialist units. In brood war air death balls although powerful are not unstoppable because there are units like goliaths, corsairs, scourge, and devourers that specifically fulfill an anti air role and even in zvz where mutas are very powerful these anti air specialists help to provide some interesting mechanics to the air battle. Its worth noting that in brood war things play out so that its almost never desirable except in mirrors for both players to pursue an air deathball, which significantly helps prevent air vs air blobs.
Sc2 is largely lacking on strong anti air specialist units especially when it comes to terran, zerg has the viper which although obviously does not prevent protoss air deathballs is very effective against air blobs, and protoss has the tempest which is very helpful vs air units and static units like tanks without being that great vs other units due to there cost, tech, poor mobility, and low dps. Sc2 trys to balance this out by making strong air units relatively slow but this only turns the late game into a long drawn out turtly kind of game that shares none of the fun mechanics of the early and mid game if both players go into it with large stable economies.
Obviously changing air units would be a huge overhuall of late game and throw balance out of whack but I wish some tweeks would be made that would make ground based late game armies more competitive with air based ones because the gameplay of sc2 in my opinion is at its best when ground units are the core of your army and air units are only there to provide some harass potential and utility to the ground army,.
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I still want to believe that they are trying hard enough to represent starcraft as a future e-sport. But current update, that is not what I want to hear from them. Very passive. It sounds for me something like that, we do not want to interfere with it and do something else until autumn. While it needed. At least they should have share much more information about current situation. Do they look at anything other than GSL or Circuit? I mean, maybe... maybe they have time to watch some of streams around. Rogue, Maru or Stats. It's a tangled. - Recall as a tier 1 tech. Come on. - Carriers and storms in ZvP. - Cyclone wars. - Battlecruiser as a unit that never exist (only Maru did it twice during ladder games). - Economic system when protoss is doing cannon rush/proxy voidrays/tempests/ shiled batteries and Z or T are blocked and pretty much dead. Vikings buff is not working. Shocking news!
And they are like we are keep on eye on it? Oh, shit, guys, this is not cool.
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On July 21 2018 09:40 pvsnp wrote:TL;DR lategame TvZ is a game of economy with Terran defending and Zerg attacking, and inherently favors Zerg.
great read.
the story is the same with GuMiho-style ground mech. death by a thousand cuts, except it comes at the hand of swarm hosts. when you are trying to push across the map, ravagers can land a thousand corrosive biles along your path, whittling your army down to size, buying time for more vipers, brood lords, and the next wave of locusts.
there is one terran unit that had the potential to solve this sad state of affairs: pre-3.8.0 ground-to-ground lock-on cyclones.
lock-on cyclones out-ranged every zerg ground unit except for lurkers and infestors. lock-on cyclones were faster than every zerg ground unit except for speedlings. theoretically, you could kite against a maxed hydra / roach / ravager army without losing a single unit.
lings, banes, roaches, ravagers, hydras, queens, ultras, spines, spores, mutas and corruptors... any combination of these units alone could be kited and bbq'd to death by cyclone / hellion / mine. what resulted was a completely different kind of TvZ. low economy, no stupid 10k banks, lots and lots of micro, multi-pronged attacks, back-and-forth, and most importantly, anti-deathball.
try to imagine it like this:
terran is at 160 supply (90 army supply) and just about to hit +2 vehicle plating.
terran sends 45 army supply of cyclone / hellion / mine to the north attack path, threatening zerg's 6th base. the other 45 supply goes to the south path, threatening z's 5th base.
to save both hatcheries, zerg had to split his army in half. zerg's army would consist of some mobile force: hydra, roach, and either infestors or vipers. zerg would try to fungal or abduct the cyclones, while terran dodges fungals and picks off units with lock-on range, luring zerg into widow mine traps.
zerg would also have some defensive units.. maybe a few lurkers, spines, queens... and later, brood lords.
swarm hosts could not be used too aggressively against this style of mech because lock-on poses such a threat. swarm hosts waddle across the map... cyclones dash across the other side of the map to counterattack... zerg loses a hatch.
when zerg splits his army and has an answer to both cyclone raiding parties, terran would join army groups A and B and attack the mobile viper / hydra army with his full force... perhaps he would rally all his reinforcements to the north, parade-pushing up to z's 6th hatch. now zerg would have to rearrange his defenses... bringing some lurkers from the south up to the north. this constant rearranging of armies, so that zerg had his units in the right place, right time, created a very fun style of TvZ (at least for me ).
of course, when zerg goes lurkers, terran goes tanks... when zerg goes broods, terran has the choice to go even more mobile and intensify the multi-pronged attacks. lock-on cyclones can't kill broods, but they can work around them.
because cyclone / mine did spell damage, not weapon damage, you could delay the 2nd armory and rush to 8 factories. fast, speedy, swarmy battle mech. it was like playing bio with mech units. this was the pinnacle of sc2 TvZ for me
the speed and amazing synergy of lock-on cyclones + hellions (remember, when cyclones were 4.72 speed) meant that zerg became more and more vulnerable as he expanded towards the terran. it wasn't about sacking blue flame hellions to kill drones. it was about using your hellions to soak damage, while your cyclones focused down the hatch. when the zerg's 6th base is at 12 o'clock, and zerg's 5th base is at 5 o'clock on the map, it is simply impossible to defend against lock-on cyclones with a slow brood-lord / infestor / static defense deathball. also, with such a mobile terran army, you can really fight against creep all game long.
of course, you never saw this in a pro game because lock-on cyclones had a lock-on range bug for most of their existence... not to mention the stupid 4 supply cost and techlab limitation.
I think if we tweaked the old lock-on cyclone we could create a much more entertaining style of mech vZ.
lock-on was a spell, not affected by upgrades. this meant that bio to mech transitions would be possible. bio terran would use the single armory for vehicle plating. just imagine your bog-standard bio vZ... multi-pronged drops to clear creep, leading to a +2 push... when this is all defended by the zerg, terran will turtle up a bit with planetaries and ghosts, just as you described. but now, he makes 2 more factories (4 in total) instead of 9th / 10th raxx + 2nd / 3rd starport. terran then sends some bio and cyclone to pressure the extremities of z's territory. the deathball gets broken up, and now we can run rings around the zerg if he makes such a slow army.
please... anything is better than this zero-skill a-move unmicroable hunk of junk. I am embarassed that this version of the cyclone is still in the game for almost 2 years. it is an amateur effort for a game that is supposedly the king of RTS esports
tl:dr: make cyclones great again
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Cyclone should be replaced with Goliath. Cyclone was rewatched/buffed/nerfed 6 or 7 times. The most rewatched/re-buffed/re-nerfed unit in the history of mankind.
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On July 21 2018 08:57 LTCM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 05:37 DomeGetta wrote:On July 21 2018 01:22 hiroshOne wrote: Queens (Infestors as well, vipers too) are countered hard by ghosts- try EMP and they are useless- but no... it's easier to queue some snipes on rapid fire and then go whine on forums. Broodlords are countered by ghost too via Snipe.
If u face Broodlord/Viper/Infestor/Queen army, which again- is super hard to control properly to their max efectiveness, you should have Ghosts and Ravens among with bio/tank or Thor/Viking in the same time. Ghosts countering Vioer/Infestor/Queen- really one or two EMP is enough, Raven for AAM and bio for dmg. Look how fast all disappears with -3 armour on it.
Now. I don't say that this Terran compositions is easy to control, but it's also the case for this Zerg composition. Only at the highest level of play we see this level of control and still it's not perfect.
Saying that Broodlord/Vioer/Infestor/Queen is a-move composition is just fucking bias- Avilo Level. Yeah emp is super easy to land on any Zerg unit under a swarm of broodlings. The broodlord is the problem - not any of the other units - snipe is great if you decide to attack with only broodlords but that isnt a thing? This would be balanced out (and still retarded and horrendous to watch) if you gave Terran a massive T3 unit that had broodlord range air to ground. The only actual argument that has been made in defense of broodlords not being an a move unit is that you have to move command them back at some point - at the speed they move you can do this with negligible apm. LOL. There is literally no micro involved with the unit - you can't just rage that there is and make it so. Vipers/Infestors and Queens all have to cast a spell - well damn - that's super difficult and falls into the same argument that Protoss players make about how hard it is to micro their death-ball. To test this insane argument you are making I would propose the following scenario: Fast forward in a replay to a split map 10K/10K bank ultimate comp vs ultimate comp situation Tvz and have Maru take over the Terran and a random NA GM zerg player take over the Zerg - log results. Do the same thing except now get a random NA GM Terran player vs. Rogue from a midgame 2-1-1 position (where Terran is supposed to have an of edge ) Rogue won't drop a game - because even tho Terran has an advantage - his multi/micro will allow him to overwhelm the Terran. Maru will drop a fair share of the games because the situation doesn't allow for his mechanics to help him. It will rely on the zerg player doing something terrible for him to win. That existing in the game isn't good for any matchup imo. Dude really? I mean having a discussion requires both sides to be arguing in good faith. The idea that maru would drop a fair share of games against random NA gms given the situation you created isn't really believable or backed up by any reason. If you want changes come out and say them; don't make up random ideas to 'support' them.
Dude. Do you read often? Did i say this happened or did i propose testing it and hypothesize a result? You are more than welcome to disagree..but please actually read..it helps prior to giving your "feedback". I gave multiple reasons for my hypothesis..they are in my post..again try reading...and hey..even propose some of ur reasons that you think its unbelievable??
Again. Im not saying maru would lose a game to a random gm na z player..they would die well before reaching that stage.. read plssss.
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On July 21 2018 09:40 pvsnp wrote: Gotta say, I think you guys are arguing about the wrong thing. It’s true enough that lategame armies are a bitch to manage. So many moving parts, so many control groups, so many chances to screw up. But I think that's kind of beside the point.
The point is twofold:
First, enough Ghosts with enough energy and proper control, assuming they’re in a properly sieged and fortified defensive setup, can smash any army that Zerg can produce. The ultimate Terran army beats the ultimate Zerg army, hands down. Planetaries, Liberators, and Marauders shield the Ghosts from the Ling/Bane/Broodlings and let them get their spells off. Barring lucky fungals that catch the entire Ghost ball or an equivalent miracle, EMP will deny spellcasting and snipes will slaughter the Zerg tech units.
Second, Zerg has a massive advantage and will almost certainly win in the lategame. This is not because the ultimate army for Zerg is stronger–it’s weaker. It’s simply because the lategame reverses the conventional roles of each race, and Zerg gains an inherent advantage from that. In normal TvZ, Terran is the aggressor and Zerg the defender. Zerg therefore has certain advantages to facilitate that defense. Like creep, for vision and rapid army movement. It also has the production advantage of larva, which allow army units to be produced on-demand. As the defender, these advantages are necessary to survive. Of course, Terran has offensive advantages too. Mules let the Terran produce fewer scvs and more army, planetaries reduce the need for static defense, and so forth. However, in the lategame, the roles flip. Terran becomes the defender and Zerg the aggressor. And as the aggressor, Zerg’s advantages become overwhelmingly strong whereas Terran’s defensive advantages dwindle to irrelevance, and thus Zerg gains a massive advantage over Terran.
I mentioned earlier that the ultimate Terran army can beat the ultimate Zerg army. Problem is, the ultimate Terran army is slow as fuck and extremely clunky to reposition, because of the need for unsieging and resieging, presplitting, etc. Because Ghosts are the critical unit, it is also hindered by the need to accommodate and protect slow ground units around terrain features. Now to be fair, the ultimate Zerg army is also slow as fuck, despite being more reliant on air units; nobody says BLs are fast.
The key here is that ultimate armies don’t actually matter. The lategame is not about ultimate armies. It’s about the economy.
Think for a moment about a generic TvZ lategame. The map is split in two. The Zerg half, and probably a fair chunk of the Terran half, is covered in creep. Terran is all turtled up behind sensor towers and planetaries and turrets. Both sides have massive banks (Zerg moreso) and both sides have these enormous lategame deathballs squaring off on one side of the map, near Terran’s fifth or sixth.
If Zerg is dumb, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go “Hell yeah this army is invincible! Imma go crush that Terran scrub!” They muster up all their micro skill and go for it. Then the Terran army goes pew pew and suddenly that mighty Zerg army is a puddle of blood. The dumb Zerg, in a fit of petulance, reaches for his enormous checkbook and writes himself a big old check for a whole new LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army. Rinse and repeat until the dumb Zerg realizes that the universe is finite, its resources finite, and promptly dies.
But if the Zerg is smart, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go….absolutely nowhere. That mighty Zerg army does nothing at all. It just sits on its ass, right on the edge of Terran’s vision, occasionally poking and posturing and reminding Terran of the horrible swarmy doom that it can unleash at any moment. Any moment now. Aaaaany moment.
Instead, the smart Zerg takes some of the smallest, most insignificant units in that mighty Zerg army, namely Ling/Bane, and runs it to the opposite side of the map, to Terran’s fourth or sixth or whatever. While both players are staring at their enormous deathballs, he amoves or shift-clicks into the base, and gets cleaned up after blowing up some supply depots or something. Then he makes some more Ling/Bane and does it again, at that same base, or another base, doesn’t matter just as long as it’s far away from the big Terran deathball. None of this will accomplish very much, just killing the stray depot or sensor tower or what have you, slowly eroding the walls of the Terran turtle. Attention, after all, is a resource just like minerals or gas, and just as finite. Terran doesn’t have time to fix walls–at least not all of them–when there’s a horrible swarmy doom on his doorstep.
Then the Zerg takes a little more supply, and makes a bunch of banes. A whole lot of banes. He runs them past the broken-down walls and straight into a planetary. Boom. Suddenly Terran is down a base. This, of course, gets a reaction from the Terran. He needs that base, after all. So he sends an scv to build a new CC, or he floats over one of his orbitals, or whatever. Whatever it is, it’s more vulnerable than a planetary was, so it’s a straightforward matter for the Zerg to send a bit more Ling/Bane and deny it. Now the Terran wises up, assuming he didn’t the first time, and sends a couple medivacs worth of bio to clean up the nuisance and secure the expansion. So the next time, Zerg sends the Ling/Bane to a different base. If he’s feeling bold, perhaps he sends some hydras or even ultras along with them. Maybe he even attacks two bases at once. Maybe once Terran has pulled scvs, he burrows some cracklings in the mineral line, or banes along the reinforcement path. You get the idea. Soon enough the Terran is running everywhere, trying to put out fires. Except more of them keep springing up. Except the Ling/Bane arsonists are faster than the MMM firefighters. Except Zerg has a bigger bank than he does, and the larva to use it, and an extra base or two mining because Terran’s fourth or fifth or sixth is always on fire.
The thing is, Ling/Bane is fast. Really fast. When the map is mostly purple, Ling/Bane gets anywhere in a real hurry. As the defender, this is essential in order to react to drops. As the aggressor though, Ling/Bane runs rings around Bio. And Terran's own advantages don't scale the same way. Mules are great but somewhat less important with huge banks. While they do allow larger Terran armies, the issue is not army size but rather army position. Even a maxed army cannot defend everywhere. Planetaries are great against smaller harass but enough banes can and do defeat them. When Terran is the one defending, stimmed bio arrives to the fight half-dead. Boost is a slow reaction when the first warning is banes exploding. And when both players are paying attention to their huge deathballs, amoved Ling/Bane blows up amoved Bio. Cracklings tear buildings down in record time, and while using banes against buildings is inefficient, that doesn’t matter so much when Zerg has an extra base or two mining.
And all the while, Zerg has an enormous deathball waiting patiently outside the Terran base. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much patience and move out of that fortified position with turrets and planetaries and liberators galore. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much economy and stop replacing those expensive Ghosts. Waiting for victory.
So maybe Terran doesn’t take the bait and waits, putting out fires as best as he can, trying to harass a Zerg with vision of half the map and then some. Eventually Terran’s smaller bank runs dry and his hope with it. Death by a thousand cuts. Zerg wins.
Or Terran does take the bait and moves out, onto creep, into a spore forest, trying to smash the Zerg in a decisive engagement. Even if he wins the fight by some miracle, what then? Go deep onto creep to kill one hatchery and get surrounded by the remax? Or inch forward, clear a bit of creep, and hope to pull off another miracle against the remax? Death by overextension. Zerg wins.
I think you get the picture. People often say that Terran has a weak lategame against Zerg, which I don’t think is entirely accurate. Terran has a strong lategame. It just doesn’t matter, because lategame isn’t about strength on a fundamental level. It’s about the economy.
Sorry for the wall of text. TL;DR lategame TvZ is a game of economy with Terran defending and Zerg attacking, and inherently favors Zerg.
Yah so basically in a nutshell if u throw ur army into a meat grinder position as zerg then ur army loses, which doesnt necessarily lose u the game. Likewise if u move into the zerg meat grinder even with a ton of ghost on creep as terran ur army loses.. and because z can expand and hold expansions easier along with spend the money easier its z favored. I dont think its accurate tho to say that terran has stronger late game units. They can definitely choose to turtle into a position that would force zerg to trade poorly..but since that is a losing strategy you dont actually see that at the top level of play. What you see if the zerg survives to late game is an exploding bank and larva count as the zerg refills his max army a bit rounding out the proper comp a bit at a time while the terran is trying to deny him bases or push his creep back while being unable to take his own bases. Hours and hours of these games on innos stream vods. Main idea for me is that i hope blizzard looks at raising the skill cap for all races at all stages of the game for the next big update. I personally (for the reasons ive stated in multiple posts on this thread) think the late game units broodlord/carrier/tempest need to be looked at for the same reason the raven was. Also think mech should be relooked at or removed from the game. Turtling should not be incentivized for any race....no one wants to watch it.
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On July 21 2018 13:09 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 09:40 pvsnp wrote: Gotta say, I think you guys are arguing about the wrong thing. It’s true enough that lategame armies are a bitch to manage. So many moving parts, so many control groups, so many chances to screw up. But I think that's kind of beside the point.
The point is twofold:
First, enough Ghosts with enough energy and proper control, assuming they’re in a properly sieged and fortified defensive setup, can smash any army that Zerg can produce. The ultimate Terran army beats the ultimate Zerg army, hands down. Planetaries, Liberators, and Marauders shield the Ghosts from the Ling/Bane/Broodlings and let them get their spells off. Barring lucky fungals that catch the entire Ghost ball or an equivalent miracle, EMP will deny spellcasting and snipes will slaughter the Zerg tech units.
Second, Zerg has a massive advantage and will almost certainly win in the lategame. This is not because the ultimate army for Zerg is stronger–it’s weaker. It’s simply because the lategame reverses the conventional roles of each race, and Zerg gains an inherent advantage from that. In normal TvZ, Terran is the aggressor and Zerg the defender. Zerg therefore has certain advantages to facilitate that defense. Like creep, for vision and rapid army movement. It also has the production advantage of larva, which allow army units to be produced on-demand. As the defender, these advantages are necessary to survive. Of course, Terran has offensive advantages too. Mules let the Terran produce fewer scvs and more army, planetaries reduce the need for static defense, and so forth. However, in the lategame, the roles flip. Terran becomes the defender and Zerg the aggressor. And as the aggressor, Zerg’s advantages become overwhelmingly strong whereas Terran’s defensive advantages dwindle to irrelevance, and thus Zerg gains a massive advantage over Terran.
I mentioned earlier that the ultimate Terran army can beat the ultimate Zerg army. Problem is, the ultimate Terran army is slow as fuck and extremely clunky to reposition, because of the need for unsieging and resieging, presplitting, etc. Because Ghosts are the critical unit, it is also hindered by the need to accommodate and protect slow ground units around terrain features. Now to be fair, the ultimate Zerg army is also slow as fuck, despite being more reliant on air units; nobody says BLs are fast.
The key here is that ultimate armies don’t actually matter. The lategame is not about ultimate armies. It’s about the economy.
Think for a moment about a generic TvZ lategame. The map is split in two. The Zerg half, and probably a fair chunk of the Terran half, is covered in creep. Terran is all turtled up behind sensor towers and planetaries and turrets. Both sides have massive banks (Zerg moreso) and both sides have these enormous lategame deathballs squaring off on one side of the map, near Terran’s fifth or sixth.
If Zerg is dumb, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go “Hell yeah this army is invincible! Imma go crush that Terran scrub!” They muster up all their micro skill and go for it. Then the Terran army goes pew pew and suddenly that mighty Zerg army is a puddle of blood. The dumb Zerg, in a fit of petulance, reaches for his enormous checkbook and writes himself a big old check for a whole new LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army. Rinse and repeat until the dumb Zerg realizes that the universe is finite, its resources finite, and promptly dies.
But if the Zerg is smart, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go….absolutely nowhere. That mighty Zerg army does nothing at all. It just sits on its ass, right on the edge of Terran’s vision, occasionally poking and posturing and reminding Terran of the horrible swarmy doom that it can unleash at any moment. Any moment now. Aaaaany moment.
Instead, the smart Zerg takes some of the smallest, most insignificant units in that mighty Zerg army, namely Ling/Bane, and runs it to the opposite side of the map, to Terran’s fourth or sixth or whatever. While both players are staring at their enormous deathballs, he amoves or shift-clicks into the base, and gets cleaned up after blowing up some supply depots or something. Then he makes some more Ling/Bane and does it again, at that same base, or another base, doesn’t matter just as long as it’s far away from the big Terran deathball. None of this will accomplish very much, just killing the stray depot or sensor tower or what have you, slowly eroding the walls of the Terran turtle. Attention, after all, is a resource just like minerals or gas, and just as finite. Terran doesn’t have time to fix walls–at least not all of them–when there’s a horrible swarmy doom on his doorstep.
Then the Zerg takes a little more supply, and makes a bunch of banes. A whole lot of banes. He runs them past the broken-down walls and straight into a planetary. Boom. Suddenly Terran is down a base. This, of course, gets a reaction from the Terran. He needs that base, after all. So he sends an scv to build a new CC, or he floats over one of his orbitals, or whatever. Whatever it is, it’s more vulnerable than a planetary was, so it’s a straightforward matter for the Zerg to send a bit more Ling/Bane and deny it. Now the Terran wises up, assuming he didn’t the first time, and sends a couple medivacs worth of bio to clean up the nuisance and secure the expansion. So the next time, Zerg sends the Ling/Bane to a different base. If he’s feeling bold, perhaps he sends some hydras or even ultras along with them. Maybe he even attacks two bases at once. Maybe once Terran has pulled scvs, he burrows some cracklings in the mineral line, or banes along the reinforcement path. You get the idea. Soon enough the Terran is running everywhere, trying to put out fires. Except more of them keep springing up. Except the Ling/Bane arsonists are faster than the MMM firefighters. Except Zerg has a bigger bank than he does, and the larva to use it, and an extra base or two mining because Terran’s fourth or fifth or sixth is always on fire.
The thing is, Ling/Bane is fast. Really fast. When the map is mostly purple, Ling/Bane gets anywhere in a real hurry. As the defender, this is essential in order to react to drops. As the aggressor though, Ling/Bane runs rings around Bio. And Terran's own advantages don't scale the same way. Mules are great but somewhat less important with huge banks. While they do allow larger Terran armies, the issue is not army size but rather army position. Even a maxed army cannot defend everywhere. Planetaries are great against smaller harass but enough banes can and do defeat them. When Terran is the one defending, stimmed bio arrives to the fight half-dead. Boost is a slow reaction when the first warning is banes exploding. And when both players are paying attention to their huge deathballs, amoved Ling/Bane blows up amoved Bio. Cracklings tear buildings down in record time, and while using banes against buildings is inefficient, that doesn’t matter so much when Zerg has an extra base or two mining.
And all the while, Zerg has an enormous deathball waiting patiently outside the Terran base. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much patience and move out of that fortified position with turrets and planetaries and liberators galore. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much economy and stop replacing those expensive Ghosts. Waiting for victory.
So maybe Terran doesn’t take the bait and waits, putting out fires as best as he can, trying to harass a Zerg with vision of half the map and then some. Eventually Terran’s smaller bank runs dry and his hope with it. Death by a thousand cuts. Zerg wins.
Or Terran does take the bait and moves out, onto creep, into a spore forest, trying to smash the Zerg in a decisive engagement. Even if he wins the fight by some miracle, what then? Go deep onto creep to kill one hatchery and get surrounded by the remax? Or inch forward, clear a bit of creep, and hope to pull off another miracle against the remax? Death by overextension. Zerg wins.
I think you get the picture. People often say that Terran has a weak lategame against Zerg, which I don’t think is entirely accurate. Terran has a strong lategame. It just doesn’t matter, because lategame isn’t about strength on a fundamental level. It’s about the economy.
Sorry for the wall of text. TL;DR lategame TvZ is a game of economy with Terran defending and Zerg attacking, and inherently favors Zerg. Yah so basically in a nutshell if u throw ur army into a meat grinder position as zerg then ur army loses, which doesnt necessarily lose u the game. Likewise if u move into the zerg meat grinder even with a ton of ghost on creep as terran ur army loses.. and because z can expand and hold expansions easier along with spend the money easier its z favored. I dont think its accurate tho to say that terran has stronger late game units. They can definitely choose to turtle into a position that would force zerg to trade poorly..but since that is a losing strategy you dont actually see that at the top level of play. What you see if the zerg survives to late game is an exploding bank and larva count as the zerg refills his max army a bit rounding out the proper comp a bit at a time while the terran is trying to deny him bases or push his creep back while being unable to take his own bases. Hours and hours of these games on innos stream vods. Main idea for me is that i hope blizzard looks at raising the skill cap for all races at all stages of the game for the next big update. I personally (for the reasons ive stated in multiple posts on this thread) think the late game units broodlord/carrier/tempest need to be looked at for the same reason the raven was. Also think mech should be relooked at or removed from the game. Turtling should not be incentivized for any race....no one wants to watch it. I’d disagree with your proposal of “removing” mech, that would not only destroy the identity of Terran (ok, you caught me, I love mech) since the release of the original StarCraft, but it would further limit strategical diversity. Turtling might not be as beautiful or interesting to watch as faster paced playstyles, but it is a viable way to play the game as much as cheese is. In addition to that, it’s still a game, so what is nice to watch should never be top priority. All in all we had way worse turtle metas during SC2's lifespan (HotS TvZ SH vs. mech) and Blizzard kinda fixed that.
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When did you last see a terran turtling with Mech? When you turtle with mech you just die to Broodlords/Carriers/Liberators
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On July 21 2018 18:01 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 13:09 DomeGetta wrote:On July 21 2018 09:40 pvsnp wrote: Gotta say, I think you guys are arguing about the wrong thing. It’s true enough that lategame armies are a bitch to manage. So many moving parts, so many control groups, so many chances to screw up. But I think that's kind of beside the point.
The point is twofold:
First, enough Ghosts with enough energy and proper control, assuming they’re in a properly sieged and fortified defensive setup, can smash any army that Zerg can produce. The ultimate Terran army beats the ultimate Zerg army, hands down. Planetaries, Liberators, and Marauders shield the Ghosts from the Ling/Bane/Broodlings and let them get their spells off. Barring lucky fungals that catch the entire Ghost ball or an equivalent miracle, EMP will deny spellcasting and snipes will slaughter the Zerg tech units.
Second, Zerg has a massive advantage and will almost certainly win in the lategame. This is not because the ultimate army for Zerg is stronger–it’s weaker. It’s simply because the lategame reverses the conventional roles of each race, and Zerg gains an inherent advantage from that. In normal TvZ, Terran is the aggressor and Zerg the defender. Zerg therefore has certain advantages to facilitate that defense. Like creep, for vision and rapid army movement. It also has the production advantage of larva, which allow army units to be produced on-demand. As the defender, these advantages are necessary to survive. Of course, Terran has offensive advantages too. Mules let the Terran produce fewer scvs and more army, planetaries reduce the need for static defense, and so forth. However, in the lategame, the roles flip. Terran becomes the defender and Zerg the aggressor. And as the aggressor, Zerg’s advantages become overwhelmingly strong whereas Terran’s defensive advantages dwindle to irrelevance, and thus Zerg gains a massive advantage over Terran.
I mentioned earlier that the ultimate Terran army can beat the ultimate Zerg army. Problem is, the ultimate Terran army is slow as fuck and extremely clunky to reposition, because of the need for unsieging and resieging, presplitting, etc. Because Ghosts are the critical unit, it is also hindered by the need to accommodate and protect slow ground units around terrain features. Now to be fair, the ultimate Zerg army is also slow as fuck, despite being more reliant on air units; nobody says BLs are fast.
The key here is that ultimate armies don’t actually matter. The lategame is not about ultimate armies. It’s about the economy.
Think for a moment about a generic TvZ lategame. The map is split in two. The Zerg half, and probably a fair chunk of the Terran half, is covered in creep. Terran is all turtled up behind sensor towers and planetaries and turrets. Both sides have massive banks (Zerg moreso) and both sides have these enormous lategame deathballs squaring off on one side of the map, near Terran’s fifth or sixth.
If Zerg is dumb, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go “Hell yeah this army is invincible! Imma go crush that Terran scrub!” They muster up all their micro skill and go for it. Then the Terran army goes pew pew and suddenly that mighty Zerg army is a puddle of blood. The dumb Zerg, in a fit of petulance, reaches for his enormous checkbook and writes himself a big old check for a whole new LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army. Rinse and repeat until the dumb Zerg realizes that the universe is finite, its resources finite, and promptly dies.
But if the Zerg is smart, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go….absolutely nowhere. That mighty Zerg army does nothing at all. It just sits on its ass, right on the edge of Terran’s vision, occasionally poking and posturing and reminding Terran of the horrible swarmy doom that it can unleash at any moment. Any moment now. Aaaaany moment.
Instead, the smart Zerg takes some of the smallest, most insignificant units in that mighty Zerg army, namely Ling/Bane, and runs it to the opposite side of the map, to Terran’s fourth or sixth or whatever. While both players are staring at their enormous deathballs, he amoves or shift-clicks into the base, and gets cleaned up after blowing up some supply depots or something. Then he makes some more Ling/Bane and does it again, at that same base, or another base, doesn’t matter just as long as it’s far away from the big Terran deathball. None of this will accomplish very much, just killing the stray depot or sensor tower or what have you, slowly eroding the walls of the Terran turtle. Attention, after all, is a resource just like minerals or gas, and just as finite. Terran doesn’t have time to fix walls–at least not all of them–when there’s a horrible swarmy doom on his doorstep.
Then the Zerg takes a little more supply, and makes a bunch of banes. A whole lot of banes. He runs them past the broken-down walls and straight into a planetary. Boom. Suddenly Terran is down a base. This, of course, gets a reaction from the Terran. He needs that base, after all. So he sends an scv to build a new CC, or he floats over one of his orbitals, or whatever. Whatever it is, it’s more vulnerable than a planetary was, so it’s a straightforward matter for the Zerg to send a bit more Ling/Bane and deny it. Now the Terran wises up, assuming he didn’t the first time, and sends a couple medivacs worth of bio to clean up the nuisance and secure the expansion. So the next time, Zerg sends the Ling/Bane to a different base. If he’s feeling bold, perhaps he sends some hydras or even ultras along with them. Maybe he even attacks two bases at once. Maybe once Terran has pulled scvs, he burrows some cracklings in the mineral line, or banes along the reinforcement path. You get the idea. Soon enough the Terran is running everywhere, trying to put out fires. Except more of them keep springing up. Except the Ling/Bane arsonists are faster than the MMM firefighters. Except Zerg has a bigger bank than he does, and the larva to use it, and an extra base or two mining because Terran’s fourth or fifth or sixth is always on fire.
The thing is, Ling/Bane is fast. Really fast. When the map is mostly purple, Ling/Bane gets anywhere in a real hurry. As the defender, this is essential in order to react to drops. As the aggressor though, Ling/Bane runs rings around Bio. And Terran's own advantages don't scale the same way. Mules are great but somewhat less important with huge banks. While they do allow larger Terran armies, the issue is not army size but rather army position. Even a maxed army cannot defend everywhere. Planetaries are great against smaller harass but enough banes can and do defeat them. When Terran is the one defending, stimmed bio arrives to the fight half-dead. Boost is a slow reaction when the first warning is banes exploding. And when both players are paying attention to their huge deathballs, amoved Ling/Bane blows up amoved Bio. Cracklings tear buildings down in record time, and while using banes against buildings is inefficient, that doesn’t matter so much when Zerg has an extra base or two mining.
And all the while, Zerg has an enormous deathball waiting patiently outside the Terran base. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much patience and move out of that fortified position with turrets and planetaries and liberators galore. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much economy and stop replacing those expensive Ghosts. Waiting for victory.
So maybe Terran doesn’t take the bait and waits, putting out fires as best as he can, trying to harass a Zerg with vision of half the map and then some. Eventually Terran’s smaller bank runs dry and his hope with it. Death by a thousand cuts. Zerg wins.
Or Terran does take the bait and moves out, onto creep, into a spore forest, trying to smash the Zerg in a decisive engagement. Even if he wins the fight by some miracle, what then? Go deep onto creep to kill one hatchery and get surrounded by the remax? Or inch forward, clear a bit of creep, and hope to pull off another miracle against the remax? Death by overextension. Zerg wins.
I think you get the picture. People often say that Terran has a weak lategame against Zerg, which I don’t think is entirely accurate. Terran has a strong lategame. It just doesn’t matter, because lategame isn’t about strength on a fundamental level. It’s about the economy.
Sorry for the wall of text. TL;DR lategame TvZ is a game of economy with Terran defending and Zerg attacking, and inherently favors Zerg. Yah so basically in a nutshell if u throw ur army into a meat grinder position as zerg then ur army loses, which doesnt necessarily lose u the game. Likewise if u move into the zerg meat grinder even with a ton of ghost on creep as terran ur army loses.. and because z can expand and hold expansions easier along with spend the money easier its z favored. I dont think its accurate tho to say that terran has stronger late game units. They can definitely choose to turtle into a position that would force zerg to trade poorly..but since that is a losing strategy you dont actually see that at the top level of play. What you see if the zerg survives to late game is an exploding bank and larva count as the zerg refills his max army a bit rounding out the proper comp a bit at a time while the terran is trying to deny him bases or push his creep back while being unable to take his own bases. Hours and hours of these games on innos stream vods. Main idea for me is that i hope blizzard looks at raising the skill cap for all races at all stages of the game for the next big update. I personally (for the reasons ive stated in multiple posts on this thread) think the late game units broodlord/carrier/tempest need to be looked at for the same reason the raven was. Also think mech should be relooked at or removed from the game. Turtling should not be incentivized for any race....no one wants to watch it. I’d disagree with your proposal of “removing” mech, that would not only destroy the identity of Terran (ok, you caught me, I love mech) since the release of the original StarCraft, but it would further limit strategical diversity. Turtling might not be as beautiful or interesting to watch as faster paced playstyles, but it is a viable way to play the game as much as cheese is. In addition to that, it’s still a game, so what is nice to watch should never be top priority. All in all we had way worse turtle metas during SC2's lifespan (HotS TvZ SH vs. mech) and Blizzard kinda fixed that. Yeah SH is bad, but don't touch mech... No, mech is as bad as mass SH.
The biggest problem is tanks, the unit have a stupid 13 range while no upgrade anymore.
It's fine with bio, but with mech, mass tanks is stupid, one volley destroy the whole ground zerg units. So it forces zerg to rush hive and skip midgame for lategame as there are not much they can do (except all-in).
And yeah, lategame is less interesting than mid game because mid game units have more mobility, can provide multiple fight in different locations, while lategame units are slow, "one big fight and gg" most of the time.
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On July 21 2018 19:37 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 18:01 Creager wrote:On July 21 2018 13:09 DomeGetta wrote:On July 21 2018 09:40 pvsnp wrote: Gotta say, I think you guys are arguing about the wrong thing. It’s true enough that lategame armies are a bitch to manage. So many moving parts, so many control groups, so many chances to screw up. But I think that's kind of beside the point.
The point is twofold:
First, enough Ghosts with enough energy and proper control, assuming they’re in a properly sieged and fortified defensive setup, can smash any army that Zerg can produce. The ultimate Terran army beats the ultimate Zerg army, hands down. Planetaries, Liberators, and Marauders shield the Ghosts from the Ling/Bane/Broodlings and let them get their spells off. Barring lucky fungals that catch the entire Ghost ball or an equivalent miracle, EMP will deny spellcasting and snipes will slaughter the Zerg tech units.
Second, Zerg has a massive advantage and will almost certainly win in the lategame. This is not because the ultimate army for Zerg is stronger–it’s weaker. It’s simply because the lategame reverses the conventional roles of each race, and Zerg gains an inherent advantage from that. In normal TvZ, Terran is the aggressor and Zerg the defender. Zerg therefore has certain advantages to facilitate that defense. Like creep, for vision and rapid army movement. It also has the production advantage of larva, which allow army units to be produced on-demand. As the defender, these advantages are necessary to survive. Of course, Terran has offensive advantages too. Mules let the Terran produce fewer scvs and more army, planetaries reduce the need for static defense, and so forth. However, in the lategame, the roles flip. Terran becomes the defender and Zerg the aggressor. And as the aggressor, Zerg’s advantages become overwhelmingly strong whereas Terran’s defensive advantages dwindle to irrelevance, and thus Zerg gains a massive advantage over Terran.
I mentioned earlier that the ultimate Terran army can beat the ultimate Zerg army. Problem is, the ultimate Terran army is slow as fuck and extremely clunky to reposition, because of the need for unsieging and resieging, presplitting, etc. Because Ghosts are the critical unit, it is also hindered by the need to accommodate and protect slow ground units around terrain features. Now to be fair, the ultimate Zerg army is also slow as fuck, despite being more reliant on air units; nobody says BLs are fast.
The key here is that ultimate armies don’t actually matter. The lategame is not about ultimate armies. It’s about the economy.
Think for a moment about a generic TvZ lategame. The map is split in two. The Zerg half, and probably a fair chunk of the Terran half, is covered in creep. Terran is all turtled up behind sensor towers and planetaries and turrets. Both sides have massive banks (Zerg moreso) and both sides have these enormous lategame deathballs squaring off on one side of the map, near Terran’s fifth or sixth.
If Zerg is dumb, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go “Hell yeah this army is invincible! Imma go crush that Terran scrub!” They muster up all their micro skill and go for it. Then the Terran army goes pew pew and suddenly that mighty Zerg army is a puddle of blood. The dumb Zerg, in a fit of petulance, reaches for his enormous checkbook and writes himself a big old check for a whole new LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army. Rinse and repeat until the dumb Zerg realizes that the universe is finite, its resources finite, and promptly dies.
But if the Zerg is smart, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go….absolutely nowhere. That mighty Zerg army does nothing at all. It just sits on its ass, right on the edge of Terran’s vision, occasionally poking and posturing and reminding Terran of the horrible swarmy doom that it can unleash at any moment. Any moment now. Aaaaany moment.
Instead, the smart Zerg takes some of the smallest, most insignificant units in that mighty Zerg army, namely Ling/Bane, and runs it to the opposite side of the map, to Terran’s fourth or sixth or whatever. While both players are staring at their enormous deathballs, he amoves or shift-clicks into the base, and gets cleaned up after blowing up some supply depots or something. Then he makes some more Ling/Bane and does it again, at that same base, or another base, doesn’t matter just as long as it’s far away from the big Terran deathball. None of this will accomplish very much, just killing the stray depot or sensor tower or what have you, slowly eroding the walls of the Terran turtle. Attention, after all, is a resource just like minerals or gas, and just as finite. Terran doesn’t have time to fix walls–at least not all of them–when there’s a horrible swarmy doom on his doorstep.
Then the Zerg takes a little more supply, and makes a bunch of banes. A whole lot of banes. He runs them past the broken-down walls and straight into a planetary. Boom. Suddenly Terran is down a base. This, of course, gets a reaction from the Terran. He needs that base, after all. So he sends an scv to build a new CC, or he floats over one of his orbitals, or whatever. Whatever it is, it’s more vulnerable than a planetary was, so it’s a straightforward matter for the Zerg to send a bit more Ling/Bane and deny it. Now the Terran wises up, assuming he didn’t the first time, and sends a couple medivacs worth of bio to clean up the nuisance and secure the expansion. So the next time, Zerg sends the Ling/Bane to a different base. If he’s feeling bold, perhaps he sends some hydras or even ultras along with them. Maybe he even attacks two bases at once. Maybe once Terran has pulled scvs, he burrows some cracklings in the mineral line, or banes along the reinforcement path. You get the idea. Soon enough the Terran is running everywhere, trying to put out fires. Except more of them keep springing up. Except the Ling/Bane arsonists are faster than the MMM firefighters. Except Zerg has a bigger bank than he does, and the larva to use it, and an extra base or two mining because Terran’s fourth or fifth or sixth is always on fire.
The thing is, Ling/Bane is fast. Really fast. When the map is mostly purple, Ling/Bane gets anywhere in a real hurry. As the defender, this is essential in order to react to drops. As the aggressor though, Ling/Bane runs rings around Bio. And Terran's own advantages don't scale the same way. Mules are great but somewhat less important with huge banks. While they do allow larger Terran armies, the issue is not army size but rather army position. Even a maxed army cannot defend everywhere. Planetaries are great against smaller harass but enough banes can and do defeat them. When Terran is the one defending, stimmed bio arrives to the fight half-dead. Boost is a slow reaction when the first warning is banes exploding. And when both players are paying attention to their huge deathballs, amoved Ling/Bane blows up amoved Bio. Cracklings tear buildings down in record time, and while using banes against buildings is inefficient, that doesn’t matter so much when Zerg has an extra base or two mining.
And all the while, Zerg has an enormous deathball waiting patiently outside the Terran base. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much patience and move out of that fortified position with turrets and planetaries and liberators galore. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much economy and stop replacing those expensive Ghosts. Waiting for victory.
So maybe Terran doesn’t take the bait and waits, putting out fires as best as he can, trying to harass a Zerg with vision of half the map and then some. Eventually Terran’s smaller bank runs dry and his hope with it. Death by a thousand cuts. Zerg wins.
Or Terran does take the bait and moves out, onto creep, into a spore forest, trying to smash the Zerg in a decisive engagement. Even if he wins the fight by some miracle, what then? Go deep onto creep to kill one hatchery and get surrounded by the remax? Or inch forward, clear a bit of creep, and hope to pull off another miracle against the remax? Death by overextension. Zerg wins.
I think you get the picture. People often say that Terran has a weak lategame against Zerg, which I don’t think is entirely accurate. Terran has a strong lategame. It just doesn’t matter, because lategame isn’t about strength on a fundamental level. It’s about the economy.
Sorry for the wall of text. TL;DR lategame TvZ is a game of economy with Terran defending and Zerg attacking, and inherently favors Zerg. Yah so basically in a nutshell if u throw ur army into a meat grinder position as zerg then ur army loses, which doesnt necessarily lose u the game. Likewise if u move into the zerg meat grinder even with a ton of ghost on creep as terran ur army loses.. and because z can expand and hold expansions easier along with spend the money easier its z favored. I dont think its accurate tho to say that terran has stronger late game units. They can definitely choose to turtle into a position that would force zerg to trade poorly..but since that is a losing strategy you dont actually see that at the top level of play. What you see if the zerg survives to late game is an exploding bank and larva count as the zerg refills his max army a bit rounding out the proper comp a bit at a time while the terran is trying to deny him bases or push his creep back while being unable to take his own bases. Hours and hours of these games on innos stream vods. Main idea for me is that i hope blizzard looks at raising the skill cap for all races at all stages of the game for the next big update. I personally (for the reasons ive stated in multiple posts on this thread) think the late game units broodlord/carrier/tempest need to be looked at for the same reason the raven was. Also think mech should be relooked at or removed from the game. Turtling should not be incentivized for any race....no one wants to watch it. I’d disagree with your proposal of “removing” mech, that would not only destroy the identity of Terran (ok, you caught me, I love mech) since the release of the original StarCraft, but it would further limit strategical diversity. Turtling might not be as beautiful or interesting to watch as faster paced playstyles, but it is a viable way to play the game as much as cheese is. In addition to that, it’s still a game, so what is nice to watch should never be top priority. All in all we had way worse turtle metas during SC2's lifespan (HotS TvZ SH vs. mech) and Blizzard kinda fixed that. Yeah SH is bad, but don't touch mech... No, mech is as bad as mass SH. The biggest problem is tanks, the unit have a stupid 13 range while no upgrade anymore. It's fine with bio, but with mech, mass tanks is stupid, one volley destroy the whole ground zerg units. So it forces zerg to rush hive and skip midgame for lategame as there are not much they can do (except all-in). And yeah, lategame is less interesting than mid game because mid game units have more mobility, can provide multiple fight in different locations, while lategame units are slow, "one big fight and gg" most of the time.
This isnt HotS, what are you even talking about.
Also SH are quite fine, agressive mech styles deal with them with hellbats and by seizing the oportunity and pushing betwen waves, or simply by splitting, forcing locust and attacking in more than one place as one.
Turtling is not viable at all in current meta.
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On July 21 2018 11:53 SHODAN wrote:tl:dr: make cyclones great again
Agree 100% I loved that cyclone, funny enough this can actually solve mech TvP too, it added so much flexibility back then, it may be a little too strong in the early game in the current meta but a few tweaks and it could be great.
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