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Knowing what a unit's attack damage and DPS (which you can look up on Liquipedia) is secondary to how you can use that knowledge to your advantage, and so I wanted to write this post to talk about some applications.
1. Sniper Teams Air units are incredibly good at picking off individual units that either stray too far or are otherwise isolated. The goal of a sniper team is "one shot, one kill" and so ideally you need to build sniper teams that have a combined DPS that exceeds the target's hit points. A classic example of this is using stacked Mutalings to snipe workers. For example: you need 5 Mutas to snipe a Probe/Drone and 7 Mutas to snipe an SCV. To flip it, 8 Scouts are needed to snipe 1 Overlord. Conventional wisdom might suggest Corsairs are more useful in this regard (due to a high DPS), but it takes upwards of 12+ Corsairs to snipe a single Overlord. While a handful of Corsairs can be equally deadly, you have to factor in DPS and opponent response/defense. You may only have just a few seconds for each snipe, so you have to make them count. It might be better then to use Scouts instead, because 4 Scouts can take down an Overlord in a couple of seconds OR they can also be used to snipe Drones!
2. Engaging Static Defenses For larger targets that require prolonged attacking, DPS can make all the difference in the world. The reason why a bunker with a single marine and an SCV repairing it can hold off a dragoon (with range) is because the Dragoon's DPS (15.873) cannot outpace the SCV's repair rate (16.57 HP/sec), and thus 2 Dragoons are needed. This can lead to a hilarious standoff in which multiple SCVs are repairing a single bunker getting attacked by multiple Dragoons. In this scenario, the Protoss player ought to simply trade fire to damage the SCVs until the balance returns to his favor.
3. Kamikaze Dropping Kamikaze dropping is sending in a transport loaded with troops that you have no intention on bringing back. Ideally, these would be cheap units with good DPS, such as Marines, Vultures, Zealots, Zerglings, and Hydras (especially after upgrades). It is tempting to push for an early tech unit drop that uses Reavers/DT/Lurkers/Tanks, but if you have specific targets in mind, you can actually do more damage with cheaper units by delaying a drop slightly. Conventional wisdom suggests that drops should be focused on killing workers, as this will degrade your opponent's economy. However, what if you went after some more integral structures? My proposal, is to develop a drop strategy that seeks to make base destruction the primary goal. This strategy won't be particularly useful against Terrans, because Command Centers can lift off, so I wanted to crunch the numbers for you and show you how killing a Hatchery or Nexus can be far more effective.
Let's start off with a some assumptions: a) These drops work particularly well against players who over-defend their expo and leave their main exposed. b) If your opponent has high APM or pays attention to the minimap, it will still take him roughly 1 second to see a drop is coming. c) It will probably take about 5-7 seconds to get first responders onto the scene in order to attack your dropped units. d) Based on this, the goal here is to do as much damage as you can in 7 seconds, knowing your units will get picked off one by one as soon as you drop. e) Target HP / DPS = number of seconds it takes to kill
>> Kamikaze Zealots PvZ -- Hatchery 1250 vs Zealot 17.316 = 72.187 seconds 72.187 / 12 Zealots = 6.01 seconds PvP -- Nexus 1500 vs Zealot 17.316 = 86.62 seconds 86.62 seconds/ 12 Zealots = 7.21 seconds
The benefits of going after a Hatchery/Nexus is that it can degrade resource gathering significantly if the workers don't have a nearby place to go. A saturated geyser yields about 288 gas per minute, while 18 drones/probes yield about 1217 minerals per minute. Given that it takes 1:15 to build a new Hatchery/Nexus, you'll be blocking a huge resource draw -- far more than perhaps just by killing workers alone. You also have to consider the cost of a new Hatchery/Nexus, which is pouring salt on the wound. The Zealot Drop itself only costs 1200 Mineral (because the Shuttles can be repurposed later on), and if the attack is successful it could be a precursor for a direct front door attack or a 2nd shuttle drop. This kind of drop can also occur in the early game using 1 Base only, and could even be expedited by going 2xRobo (which is doable because nothing else will cost gas up to that point). You should already be building Zealots anyway in PvZ, so it's not that big of stretch. At the very least, even if your opponent gets the jump on your drop, 12 Zealots can easily trade their value in kills, which will force the opponent player to delay his attack (which will buy you time to tech up to anything you want) or rethink his entire strategy.
BTW --- Firebats have the same DPS as Zealots, and so in theory a Terran equivalent of this drop would actually be cheaper and could arrive much sooner.
Anyway, that's all I got for now. Hopefully these (theoretical) applications of sniper teams, demolition squads, and kamikaze drops will give you some ideas!! If you use them, please save and post the replay!
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This analysis is a little one dimensional.
1. Corsairs are far superior to scouts because they cost significantly less, do AOE air damage and have greater maneuverability. Meaning they are more efficient, can kill multiple overlords at once and can avoid scourge sniping.
2. Sniping the SCVs with your dragoons isn't optimal, it takes 6 dragoon hits to kill an SCV and by the time you have 6 dragoons at the Terran natural he has a siege tank out (everything else being normal). Alternatively waiting for two shots with 3+, but less than 6, dragoons means taking health damage and possibly not even killing the SCV if the T is fast and pulls it out of range. Hitting the bunker and forcing repair costs the Terran minerals and evens out the cost of expanding later than Terran.
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Gordon, this is the second post you've made trying to explain basic strategy concepts using "a bunch of words," for lack of a better explanation.
Not sure what you're aiming for here but you're tossing out things without having any real backup or gameplay behind them. Scouts...well there's a few times I'd use them over corsairs for overlords but that's usually when I'm trying to fool around or show off.
In your TvP example, you try to tell a Protoss to engage the scvs because the repairing is going to outlast...entirely missing the point is to drain minerals from T on the repair so that the tank comes out later allowing P to expand, build more units, etc. Again, there's a few times you'd aim to snipe the scvs and that is usually against a T who is not responding properly to your attack, which can then allow you to bust the bunker and power through.
I appreciate the submissions, lord knows BW strategy is fun to talk about but these aren't new concepts and you're not giving out information that is entirely accurate or helpful.
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On November 18 2017 01:40 Gordon1984 wrote: Kamikaze dropping is sending in a transport loaded with troops that you have no intention on bringing back.
You never leave a man (or woman) behind!
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Those are some good points. Thanks.
1. 5 Scouts = 8 Corsairs (in terms of total cost in resources). I think the math supports either argument for Scouts or Corsairs. It depends if you want to use them for harassment or as air support for your ground army. When it comes to PvZ, I would agree that for harassment, Corsairs are better as a flying death squadron. However, Scouts might have more usefulness in PvP or PvT to snipe Arbiters/High Templar or Medics/Sci Vessels/Tanks/Mines.
2. The SCV+Bunker vs Dragoon standoff is very interesting to me because it more or less amounts to chump change in minerals. I guess the theory is that every second an SCV is repairing is a second it's not collecting minerals, but my thoughts are that you inflict more damage by sniping the SCV (say with 3 dragoons) in the long run, because that's an immediate 50 mineral hit, as opposed to the bit by bit in repair costs. I think if you're knocking on the Terran's front door with 6-7 Dragoons and you've done no previous scouting - you're absolutely correct in assuming a siege tank will be out. This is why I think the Dragoon vs SCV+Bunker standoff only makes sense when we're talking 1~3 Dragoons. Here, one Dragoon could snipe the SCV while the other 2 hit the bunker, or whatever is more preferable. Of course, the situation changes when a zealot is thrown in the mix..... but that's neither here nor there.
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On November 18 2017 05:14 Gordon1984 wrote: Those are some good points. Thanks.
1. 5 Scouts = 8 Corsairs (in terms of total cost in resources). I think the math supports either argument for Scouts or Corsairs. It depends if you want to use them for harassment or as air support for your ground army. When it comes to PvZ, I would agree that for harassment, Corsairs are better as a flying death squadron. However, Scouts might have more usefulness in PvP or PvT to snipe Arbiters/High Templar or Medics/Sci Vessels/Tanks/Mines.
2. The SCV+Bunker vs Dragoon standoff is very interesting to me because it more or less amounts to chump change in minerals. I guess the theory is that every second an SCV is repairing is a second it's not collecting minerals, but my thoughts are that you inflict more damage by sniping the SCV (say with 3 dragoons) in the long run, because that's an immediate 50 mineral hit, as opposed to the bit by bit in repair costs. I think if you're knocking on the Terran's front door with 6-7 Dragoons and you've done no previous scouting - you're absolutely correct in assuming a siege tank will be out. This is why I think the Dragoon vs SCV+Bunker standoff only makes sense when we're talking 1~3 Dragoons. Here, one Dragoon could snipe the SCV while the other 2 hit the bunker, or whatever is more preferable. Of course, the situation changes when a zealot is thrown in the mix..... but that's neither here nor there.
You're not going to make up the value of the weakened army you have sacrificing both supply/gas for scouts in PvT or PvP. If I make 5 scouts (not even enough to reasonable snipe templar), that's 20 supply out of my army...or one control group. Scout damage to ground is worthless so I'm just going to get wrecked when I go into battle. Additionally, with anything less than 4 bases, if I start pumping scouts, I'm not going to have much gas left over for templar and archon...further getting run over by my opponents army.
Anytime you have an idea that sounds good in your head, you should always try to answer "why don't I see pro's doing this? Or, if I do; under what conditions". It's pretty obvious why scouts are never going to have value in PvP.
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With regards to repair, if their is only one marine going in and sniping scv's is a great idea, assuming you have 4 goons. With less a good terran can easily send scv away before you get a kill and it doesn't end up worth it. If the terran has 3 or 4 marines though it isn't worth it, you'll lose dragoons...and sacrificing a dragoon for 1-2 scv kills is almost never a good trade.
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The benefits of going after a Hatchery/Nexus is that it can degrade resource gathering significantly if the workers don't have a nearby place to go. A saturated geyser yields about 288 gas per minute, while 18 drones/probes yield about 1217 minerals per minute. Given that it takes 1:15 to build a new Hatchery/Nexus, you'll be blocking a huge resource draw -- far more than perhaps just by killing workers alone. You also have to consider the cost of a new Hatchery/Nexus, which is pouring salt on the wound. The Zealot Drop itself only costs 1200 Mineral (because the Shuttles can be repurposed later on), and if the attack is successful it could be a precursor for a direct front door attack or a 2nd shuttle drop. This kind of drop can also occur in the early game using 1 Base only, and could even be expedited by going 2xRobo (which is doable because nothing else will cost gas up to that point). You should already be building Zealots anyway in PvZ, so it's not that big of stretch. At the very least, even if your opponent gets the jump on your drop, 12 Zealots can easily trade their value in kills, which will force the opponent player to delay his attack (which will buy you time to tech up to anything you want) or rethink his entire strategy.
1 base 12 zealot drop? Lol. And you're going to do what with those slow zealots (going 2x robo you ain't having speed) when he shows up with some hydra at your ramp? Or, as is common against one base, he opens up with muta and just snipes your shuttles before you even drop them off in his base and/or scourges them, as any good zerg will.
You can always drop later on, and players commonly do. Problem is, in most cases (and especially likely in one in which you're holding zlots out of your army, making it weak for a drop,) zerg is going to be watching the map and have spire tech. 3 shuttles coming towards him are going to get scourged in oblivion. With good overlord placement, even without scourge, he is going to be able to react long before your shuttles even each the base. He will probably be attacking your zealots before you have them all unloaded for the shuttle...then you have to walk to the hatchery under attack from zerglings/hydra, then kill it. To cap it all off, zerg can just drill the shit out of your remaining zealots and defend it easily.
I'm not saying it can't work, or will never work, but in most cases against good zergs you're most likely outcome is getting all three shuttles scourged, and it's not very likely under any circumstances you get a hatchery kill.
You will sometimes see protoss players do 2-4 dt drops into the main in PvP, often with the goal of swiping out a cannon and then targetting the nexus before an obs is out, or can be called back.
Terrans can and do drop in TvP to kill nexi occasionally, as do they in TvZ; but often in TvZ there is more value in just being efficient with your units and taking out key tech structures. I'd usually rather get the mound and pool compared to a hatchery in a mid or lategame TvZ. Drops routinely kill zerg thirds.
Bottom line is your saying a bunch of stuff everybody already knows and has thought about. It's cool that your thinking about how to play BW...but this is painfully obvious stuff to the experienced player. I'm sure every 1800 ranked player here knows and has considered all of these scenarios.
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I think you might be on to something with the Firebat drops!
The Firebat is essentially a flamethrower, with a threefold attack advantage over the Marine. This can be deceptive, however, because attacking heavy armor can lower the Firebat's attack value by 75 percent. An attack value of 16 doesn't look so good reduced to 4. The answer? Use the Firebat when you can best exploit its weapons. Firebats are very effective against Zergling hordes, particularly from the protection of a bunker. A combination of Marines (for attack range) and Firebats (for raw power) in a series of defensive Bunkers will smoke Zerglings and Hydralisks. Terran Mission 1, "First Strike" is an excellent opportunity to demonstrate this.
Firebat groups are also excellent for destroying enemy buildings and structures. A posse of eight Firebats circling an enemy building will incinerate it in seconds. A popular strategy is to use equal groups of Firebats and Marines as a one-two punch against enemy forces. Firebats are also very effective against protoss Zealots units, because they must attack hand-to-hand and are vulnerable to fire due to their light armor. The Firebat/Marine circling technique works well in the early Terran Missions.
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Great feedback guys.
A music teacher once told me: "there is nothing new to theory, except for you."
For all the players who got the memo, know the memo, and have the gaming experience to write their own memos... check and check and check!!! This post isn't for you. I encounter noobs everyday on B.net, and half of them are blindly executing build orders without a second thought given as to what those build orders are for, or the deeper analysis behind the economics of some strategies over others. Professional players also rely on a certain gameplay style, such as fast expansions, bad manner worker scouting/harassment, early aggression, etc. which are all things that many noob players are simply not accustomed to. Pro build orders often go hand in hand with their gameplay style. It does the inexperienced player no good if they are using a build order without the appropriate gameplay style to flex it.
It seems fairly clear that "if everybody knows this stuff" then Jaedong should have beat Bisu at Blizzcon dead to rights. What was Jaedong thinking by not preparing for DTs and Corsairs? 1 Sunken + 1 Spore at each Hatch early on would've easily mitigated the advantages Bisu gained in at least a couple of their games. All that money Jaedong spent on Scourge looks really stupid now as a result. (Hindsight is like karma am I right?)
Again, the feedback is well appreciated. Thanks.
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On November 18 2017 12:07 Gordon1984 wrote: It seems fairly clear that "if everybody knows this stuff" then Jaedong should have beat Bisu at Blizzcon dead to rights. What was Jaedong thinking by not preparing for DTs and Corsairs? 1 Sunken + 1 Spore at each Hatch early on would've easily mitigated the advantages Bisu gained in at least a couple of their games. All that money Jaedong spent on Scourge looks really stupid now as a result. (Hindsight is like karma am I right?)
I wish you were there to coach Jaedong.
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On November 18 2017 12:07 Gordon1984 wrote: Great feedback guys.
A music teacher once told me: "there is nothing new to theory, except for you."
For all the players who got the memo, know the memo, and have the gaming experience to write their own memos... check and check and check!!! This post isn't for you. I encounter noobs everyday on B.net, and half of them are blindly executing build orders without a second thought given as to what those build orders are for, or the deeper analysis behind the economics of some strategies over others. Professional players also rely on a certain gameplay style, such as fast expansions, bad manner worker scouting/harassment, early aggression, etc. which are all things that many noob players are simply not accustomed to. Pro build orders often go hand in hand with their gameplay style. It does the inexperienced player no good if they are using a build order without the appropriate gameplay style to flex it.
It seems fairly clear that "if everybody knows this stuff" then Jaedong should have beat Bisu at Blizzcon dead to rights. What was Jaedong thinking by not preparing for DTs and Corsairs? 1 Sunken + 1 Spore at each Hatch early on would've easily mitigated the advantages Bisu gained in at least a couple of their games. All that money Jaedong spent on Scourge looks really stupid now as a result. (Hindsight is like karma am I right?)
Again, the feedback is well appreciated. Thanks.
If this is advice for newer players, then it makes some sense. But it sounds and reads like an overall theorycraft post. I'd suggest that if it's for noobs then title it as such, and make it significantly less technical. Breaking down all the damages to percentages and such is often overkill for someone new.
With regards to the bolded, one must ask; why didn't Jaedong build spores and a sunken? Maybe I'm misreading it but the tone of your post suggests it was stupid for Jaedong not to do so.
Doing so comes with noticeable tradeoffs, such as delaying your early game timings and weakening economy. That then allows Bisu other options that Jaedong may have been even less willing to deal with, such as slower hydra exploding timings relative to templar timing, and also allows Protoss to more comfortably take a third quicker if he so chooses. Corsairs, it seems like a spore would be nice; and up to a point it is, but scourge early on serve the same purpose. With low corsair numbers, a spore chases away corsairs, as do scourge. In higher numbers however, a single spore does nothing. 7 or 8 sairs easily move on top and kill all overlords, not even losing a sair. For early game deterrance, spore/scourge serve similar purpose, in higher numbers a spore is ineffective, as are scourge, but they also allow for scouting, recon, and potential corsair assassination in the event of protoss miscontrol. Moreover, with no scourge and just a spore, it's more difficult to move overlords around the map, as they must be constantly defended with hydra. With scourge you can just get some scourage tagged on and get a solid 20-30s while protoss flies back to a cannon.
Lots of things going on, and your analysis is far too simplified. If you're going to go "Jaedong fucked up by not having spores" then the analysis needs to consider the entire costs and tradeoffs. Yours absolutely does not.
Truthfully, and I don't mean this to be insulting, it sounds like you're a very new or lower level BW player doing lots of theorycrafting (or a good troll!). Reading your posts usually sounds like someone that's maybe 1300-1500 MMR coming and talking about some possibilities that he has thought of. It's good to think about the ideas and the game with an open mind; but the reason it feels this way is because you always present these ideas like they happen in a vacuum without any consideration of tradeoffs and overall analysis. This is feedback, because if you're actually a skilled player that understands these concepts in good depth and why they might legimately be good...you aren't presenting them in a convincing way.
Look at the responses you've received. Almost every single one is either:
1) Sarcastic 2) This guy is a troll 3) LOL 4) People being nice and telling you that this doesn't seem usefu;/new but being nice enough to engage you in discussion.
There is a reason for this. Either you're not presenting what you know well, or your thinking is overly simplistic. Maybe you have good stuff to present, but you're not getting through to anybody with what you're writing right now.
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Very thoughtful post, I agree very much. Especially with your use of prepositions and articles, very eloquent.
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On November 18 2017 14:09 L_Master wrote: Look at the responses you've received. Almost every single one is either:
1) Sarcastic 2) This guy is a troll 3) LOL 4) People being nice and telling you that this doesn't seem useful/new but being nice enough to engage you in discussion.
You've just described most threads on this forum. Though I can summarize it even further:
1) Duh! Tell us something we don't know. 2) That's cool, but who cares?
...which is why this will be my last topic discussing theory. I'm a big boy. I can read a room.
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On November 18 2017 15:04 SynC[gm] wrote: Very thoughtful post, I agree very much. Especially with your use of prepositions and articles, very eloquent.
This is such a rare Pokemon, I'm gonna need my masterball to catch it. Finally, I will add redaxis to my pokedex!!!!
On November 18 2017 16:11 Gordon1984 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2017 14:09 L_Master wrote: Look at the responses you've received. Almost every single one is either:
1) Sarcastic 2) This guy is a troll 3) LOL 4) People being nice and telling you that this doesn't seem useful/new but being nice enough to engage you in discussion.
You've just described most threads on this forum. Though I can summarize it even further: 1) Duh! Tell us something we don't know. 2) That's cool, but who cares? ...which is why this will be my last topic discussing theory. I'm a big boy. I can read a room.
Your OP has brought so much joy to so many, so I would ask you to reconsider, and continue making contributions to the strategy forum.
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In PvP nexus sniping is a real thing. Usually it's an 8 Zealot drop but done at the right moment when you know you can distract your opponent, engage him in a small skirmish at his front, it can be devastating. I've won and lost games to 8 Zealot drops. Especially if you can continue to snipe rebuilding nexus.
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On November 18 2017 16:11 Gordon1984 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2017 14:09 L_Master wrote: Look at the responses you've received. Almost every single one is either:
1) Sarcastic 2) This guy is a troll 3) LOL 4) People being nice and telling you that this doesn't seem useful/new but being nice enough to engage you in discussion.
You've just described most threads on this forum. Though I can summarize it even further: 1) Duh! Tell us something we don't know. 2) That's cool, but who cares? ...which is why this will be my last topic discussing theory. I'm a big boy. I can read a room.
Hmm that reads to me like you're saying that all the posters here are close minded individuals that don't really care or give credencecare to new ideas.
I disagree. It's hard for a new idea to gain acceptance, but it's definitely possible.
I already detailed for you what you're not communicating in this post. I.e. you listed some ideas about why firebat drops could be good. But anything can be made to sound good, so it needs to be looked at in full cost/benefit context, and ideally should have some played games behind it to see in action.
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Had to stop lurking and dig up my old account to say players have been optimizing SC for over a decade: OP should check out the collection of strategy threads if they haven't already. These 3 points either miss pretty obvious drawbacks ("Snipe with scouts", "target the scvs"), or have already been implemented by players in ways that minimize their downsides (sniping a hatchery at a third base).
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I bet Gordon is a politician. He is giving questionable advice or some really basic strats, yet having confident and professional sounding approach in his text :D
Btw dropping units to snipe buildings is normal, but 12 zealot drop is something I doubt you want to go for unless you had 3 speed shuttles already for something else or unless you're already ahead and are ok with throwing away the lead. 1800 minerals is 1-X production cycles worth of units, so make sure you wont die to a simple counter attack.
12 Firebat drop might work on some really strange rare occasion. But normally on TvP you want to stick tanks or vults instead, and rines with medics on TvZ, so you can catch some of the fleeing workers. Just try it out.
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