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Russian Federation344 Posts
Hello fellas.
I want you to tell the story about conquerors and conquered.
Im oldschool terran from dinosaur's period who were playing Broodwar WCG tournaments at very high competiting level those days. I had a goal to win a ticket to the wcg grand finals. But finished last one with 1-2 with A2 TvT which i think cost me the ticket to Los Angeles (link) (Pomi was defeated badly at group stage, and i was very sure i can repeat that easily). I ended up groups stage with confident to win on top #1 really, but things gone wrong on the second day. I remember that competitive spirit in there, extingushing but still competitive spirit and that was the main thing why im still here. I also remember those days when i join tourney and got knocked out first round, but i was grateful to play and always get something from lose.
Times goes by and i don't have such goals as win ASL or something but i still like this game. I guess this game will be with me whole my life, just like those grandparents community playing Go at one of the Seoul's park i visited this year. That was amazing. They just enjoyed by playing it. They compete, laugh, lose and win.
Life goals changing. But why do YOU still playing it? Competing? No problem. Make a goal and practice. Don't wanna waste your time? Sorry, but i don't remember time in history when getting win was easy. Koreans too good? They have good infrastructure? Good for them so. You can't beat them? Its only your problem, know your rank so. Don't want to lose everytime? Don't accept the battle so.
You may think that im telling you primitive words. But the saddest thing is i don't see sportsmanship these days since we discussing such things. You are trying to solve organizer's problem as a player, or viewer's problem as a player. Let all think by ourselves.
Let the organizer decide who is gonna play in each tourney. Let the viewer decide what they gonna watch. Let the player decide where they gonna play.
Let's get respect.
Hope you got the message.
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United States9670 Posts
Why do players like Miso, Rush, Sharp, Shuttle play in tournaments when the greats like Flash, Last are playing in them if they know they have no chance of winning? :thinking:
No, you don't ban koreans like Scan because you can't beat them. That by itself should give you more motivation to get better.
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Yea you are right spx, "Don't accept the battle so." "Let the viewer decide what they gonna watch."
Many players didnt accept the battle. Many viewers decided not to watch and tune in
Are you happy about that? I am not.
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Russian Federation344 Posts
On June 14 2017 04:48 trutaCz wrote:
Many players didnt accept the battle. Many viewers decided not to watch and tune in
Are you happy about that? I am not.
I don't understand what problem do you trying to solve by telling me those statements. Can you organize tourney in the same time as filthy and get more players by banning koreans? I doubt so ![](/mirror/smilies/smile.gif) Your logic seems broken for me. Or you mean something different?
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On June 14 2017 04:41 iFU.spx wrote:Hello fellas. I want you to tell the story about conquerors and conquered. Im oldschool terran from dinosaur's period who were playing Broodwar WCG tournaments at very high competiting level those days. I had a goal to win a ticket to the wcg grand finals. But finished last one with 1-2 with A2 TvT which i think cost me the ticket to Los Angeles ( link) (Pomi was defeated badly at group stage, and i was very sure i can repeat that easily). I ended up groups stage with confident to win on top #1 really, but things gone wrong on the second day. I remember that competitive spirit in there, extingushing but still competitive spirit and that was the main thing why im still here. I also remember those days when i join tourney and got knocked out first round, but i was grateful to play and always get something from lose. Times goes by and i don't have such goals as win ASL or something but i still like this game. I guess this game will be with me whole my life, just like those grandparents community playing Go at one of the Seoul's park i visited this year. That was amazing. They just enjoyed by playing it. They compete, laugh, lose and win. Life goals changing. But why do YOU still playing it? Competing? No problem. Make a goal and practice. Don't wanna waste your time? Sorry, but i don't remember time in history when getting win was easy. Koreans too good? They have good infrastructure? Good for them so. You can't beat them? Its only your problem, know your rank so. Don't want to lose everytime? Don't accept the battle so. You may think that im telling you primitive words. But the saddest thing is i don't see sportsmanship these days since we discussing such things. You are trying to solve organizer's problem as a player, or viewer's problem as a player. Let all think by ourselves. Let the organizer decide who is gonna play in each tourney. Let the viewer decide what they gonna watch. Let the player decide where they gonna play. Let's get respect. Hope you got the message.
spot on
I wish the community would support their content producer instead of downplaying their involvement into the scene. People like Scan and the filthy cups organiser enrich everyones experience and profit to everyone yet it is welcome with much negativity. Nobody is paying their tuition college or funding their progaming career out of 75$ weekly tourney but it can help growing the scene and the community and yet people focus on wether koreans should be banned based on em being better out of having practiced harder and longer than others.
in the end people gets what they ask for, so its up to you to decide what do you want for brood war outside of korea.
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On June 14 2017 04:57 iFU.spx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 04:48 trutaCz wrote:
Many players didnt accept the battle. Many viewers decided not to watch and tune in
Are you happy about that? I am not. I don't understand what problem do you trying to solve by telling me those statements. Can you organize tourney in the same time as filthy and get more players by banning koreans? I doubt so ![](/mirror/smilies/smile.gif) Your logic seems broken for me. Or you mean something different?
You got this wrong, problem is not to be better. It's to help foreign community growing. There are less and less players in those tournaments. Last time there were 8players... 8 players for 100$, even in iccup tourney with nothing to win just rushed 1hour before the check in can get more players in it. So what we wonder is, those tournament really help foreign community ? I don't think so. Since it's not to see the best players because if it was the case juste watch ASL or youtube channel from pros, why do we keep doing something that might be hurting the scene ?
I don't understand why none of you discussed about making 8tournaments with 10$ for winner and an invite to the "super tournament' with all winner and with a bigger prize ? Scan gonna play only in one tournaments, then win the 'super tournament' and everyone gonna be happy, don't you think ?
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Dominican Republic590 Posts
On June 14 2017 04:31 trutaCz wrote: Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 Dewalt Scan 2-0 Arcneon Scan 2-0 Marwin Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 2-0 dinot Scan 2-0 kenzy Scan 2-0 Ty2 Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 2-1 dinot Scan 2-0 Terror Scan 2-1 eonzerg Scan 2-0 Bonyth Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 Sziky Scan 2-0 Dandy Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 lancerx Scan 2-0 kenzy Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 bonyth Scan 2-0 Dewalt Scan 2-1 Bonyth Scan 2-0 spx Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 2-1 Bonyth Scan 2-1 dandy Scan 2-0 trutacz scan 2-1 dewalt Scan 2-0 spx Scan 2-1 dandy Scan 1-2 bonyth Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 1-2 trutacz
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This is difference between top foreigner players and top mid tier class or low top class korean players. You can put the name of Bishop, Baskin1, 9mutal, yangachi and plenty of others
all the mentions above are not just as good as scan, i woud like to see scan playing other korean players not foreigners.
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Dat European logic tho...
User was warned for this post
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Here's a nice compromise:
Hold a regional tournament for Europeans, North Americans, etc., then have the winners fight it out. Each regional champ will make a bit of cash, and then the grand champion will make a little bit more. You could break down the regions like so:
- North America - South America - Mother Russia and Commonwealth of Independent States - Europe - Korea - China - Southeast Asia/Australia/Japan/Anyone from the rest of Asia because I know they're out there - AFRICA
Or something like that. This would encourage those smaller communities to practice so they could win their regional championships, because it'd definitely be up for grabs.
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On June 14 2017 05:16 BonitiilloO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 04:31 trutaCz wrote: Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 Dewalt Scan 2-0 Arcneon Scan 2-0 Marwin Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 2-0 dinot Scan 2-0 kenzy Scan 2-0 Ty2 Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 2-1 dinot Scan 2-0 Terror Scan 2-1 eonzerg Scan 2-0 Bonyth Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 Sziky Scan 2-0 Dandy Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 lancerx Scan 2-0 kenzy Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 bonyth Scan 2-0 Dewalt Scan 2-1 Bonyth Scan 2-0 spx Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 2-1 Bonyth Scan 2-1 dandy Scan 2-0 trutacz scan 2-1 dewalt Scan 2-0 spx Scan 2-1 dandy Scan 1-2 bonyth Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 1-2 trutacz
34-2
This is difference between top foreigner players and top mid tier class or low top class korean players. You can put the name of Bishop, Baskin1, 9mutal, yangachi and plenty of others all the mentions above are not just as good as scan, i woud like to see scan playing other korean players not foreigners. Agreed. All of the European players listed above are not on the same level as Scan. Some of the Zerg players listed above have a low economy, cheesy style. That style doesn't do too well vs Scan (His mechanics are way better than yours, his decision making is way better than yours and his game knowledge is way better than yours) If your response is, "I have to play a cheesy, all in style to have a chance to beat Scan"... then that means you just can't beat him in a standard game consistently and need to practice more.
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On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
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On June 14 2017 05:26 KenZy wrote:What do you mean by that ? Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude. Edit: Here's an example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/522793-translated-pro-videos-coordination-thread
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If we are being honest, the discussion point is not "should we ban Koreans". The answer is that is an obvious no. Banning Koreans, because they are Korean is not logically defensible in any manner, and there is no precedence for it in any sport or activity.
The question clearly is; should we attempt to set a skill cap for our tournaments. This, on the other hand, their is plenty of precedence for. Many sports and activities routinely divide competitions by skill level. Pro's cannot compete with amateurs. Players are separated by ELO. Tennis leagues have categories based on skill level (i.e, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, etc). Cycling has categories in which you race.
If people want to make the argument that organizers should be encouraged to set skill limitations on BW tourneys, I think that's a reasonable discussion to have.
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On June 14 2017 03:26 trutaCz wrote: I'll give you a hint, how do you want to learn about the things, if you dont know even know such things might exist? I'll give you a real example if it's too hard to understand. Some player talked to me and asked for advices, i answered to him and now his knowledge is greater, himself he could never learn that without asking, or maybe it would took him X period of time (weeks,months,years)
Also maybe some people would like to stop comparing BW to every other sport, discipline, shoes, bikes, shit? What would you compare esports to if not sports?
I think the relationship between the Korean BW scene and the foreign BW scene, if the two decided to partner up to create events would very much resemble an expansion draft in a pro sports league.
Take the NHL for example, in 1967, the league expanded from 6 teams to 12. The 6 expansion teams don't have the players, they don't have the facilities or the financing that the other 6 teams have. The first championship victory from an expansion team came 7 years later. At first, they were put into separate conferences in order to keep the season games competitive, one side consistently got crushed in the finals / playoffs (starting in 1971, the playoff bracket was mixed).
1) There is no incentive for Korean BW to "expand" to accommodate the International scene 2) Even if players were dedicated enough today without much financial backing, it would take years (possibly close to a decade) and a new generation of players in order for the International scene to become competitive
I think everyone wants one BW scene, not Foreigners and Koreans, but that's just not a possibility without adequate funding (which comes down to viewership).
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On June 14 2017 05:27 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 05:26 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho... What do you mean by that ? Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay. He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money. And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
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On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote: Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Me too. But there *is* a lot of whining going on in here, from you and from others. I understand you feel there's a problem, and want the scene to grow, but I also think there's a lot of greed and bad attitudes around this thread.
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On June 14 2017 05:36 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote: Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms. Me too. But there *is* a lot of whining going on in here, from you and from others. I understand you feel there's a problem, and want the scene to grow, but I also think there's a lot of greed and bad attitudes around this thread.
Can you tell me where you saw a bad attitude from me ?
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On June 13 2017 21:10 KenZy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy. I think you are wrong, why koreans are better matter. Would you like to see girl vs men in tennis ? or in boxing ? No, because it's not fair they don't have the same abilities, if the koreans are better because they play more then it's fair, if they are better because of their environment then, it's not fair.
That's just life, life isn't fair. Most of the great Kenyan runners are born at altitude and raised there; which is great for increasing lung function and altering blood composition. Not to mention that genetically most the Kenyan runners have naturally favorable traits; small, highly placed calves, thin bone structures, etc. Nobody suggests to ban these people. In some sports, like golf, soccer, tennis, etc. a rich person can have access to a private coach and elite training from the time they are 5 years old. We don't suggest banning them.
There is really only one case in which we except bans. Gender. There is always a protected female category, because the genetic advantages of being male of two overwhelming in most sports, and the genetic bases for gender is obviously damn near 100%. Any other advantage we accept as just inherent "luck of the draw". People will always have easier times being good at certain things compared to other people because of a combination of their genetics and their environment. In all but the most extreme cases (gender) they are not banned from competition.
Again, the one side to this is competition by skill level. Many competitive activities do have skilled separate leagues and competitions. I.E. "open" league, then next category of players, then next category, them next category, on down to total beginners.
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On June 14 2017 05:39 KenZy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 05:36 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote: Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms. Me too. But there *is* a lot of whining going on in here, from you and from others. I understand you feel there's a problem, and want the scene to grow, but I also think there's a lot of greed and bad attitudes around this thread. Can you tell me where you saw a bad attitude from me ?
Well in the OP it looks like the post tries to talk about "banning koreans", but is really dancing around the idea of banning Scan. It sounds sneaky. That looks like a bad attitude.
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There are a ton of good points being made here, especially that this all ultimately boils down to a tournament director decision. There seems to be a lot of toxicity in this community (see the Where is Moletrap now? thread).
I think the best compromise would be something like what others are suggesting...maybe run a weekly cup series for 5 weeks. The first 4 weeks are qualifiers and the 5th is a 4-player tournament for the winners only (maybe even double elimination, then competing for second place isn't just seeing who gets matched against Scan last). That way we get an opportunity to see players like Scan play the best foreigners, but we also get a good chance to see the best foreigners play against each other in some finals matches.
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