Hello everybody! After a couple months I finally have made my ZvP guide. I have been asked a lot on the progress of my zvp guide and I am happy to say that I finally found a build I like that I felt was good enough for a guide. I will go over defending certain all ins, but the main focus of this guide is my macro style of hydra/ling/lurker into hive, drop play and all that.
So without further ado below is the build order along with an explanation of everything. Both Build orders I put are with 3 hatch before pool and without, their very similar other than the beginning.
Build Order Hatch first
14 – Drone Scout (optional) 18 – Hatch 18 - Gas 18 – Pool 20 – Overlord 100 gas – Transfer to Natural Spawning Pool finishes – Metabolic Boosts + queens 32 – 3rd base 3:45 – 4:00 – Guys back in gas + 2nd gas + overlord sacrifice 4:00 – Roach Warren 4:30-4:45 – Start Lair + 3rd and 4th gasses + double Evo 6:00 – Get 5th and 6th gasses Evo’s finish - +1 Ranged and +1 Melee Lair Finishes – Hydra den Hydra Den Finishes – Lurker Den After Lurker Den finishes – Hydra Upgrade 8:30-9 – Start infestation Pit Infestation Pit finishes – Start hive + spire
Build Order Three Hatch Before Pool
14 – Drone Scout (optional) 18 – Hatch 20 - Hatch 20 – Gas 20 – Pool 100 gas – Transfer to Natural Spawning Pool finishes – Metabolic Boosts + queens 3:45 – 4:00 – Guys back in gas + 2nd gas + overlord sacrifice 4:00 – Roach Warren 4:30-4:45 – Start Lair + 3rd and 4th gasses + double Evo 6:00 – Get 5th and 6th gasses Evo’s finish - +1 Ranged and +1 Melee Lair Finishes – Hydra den Hydra Den Finishes – Lurker Den After Lurker Den finishes – Hydra Upgrade 8:30-9 – Start infestation Pit Infestation Pit finishes – Start hive + spire
Detailed Explanation of the Build
The above is what happens in a perfect, normal macro game. Timings will change depending on the situation. The Drone scout as I say is optional, I like to Drone scout so I know what I am up again. To know if I am playing against a Proxy, 2 gate opening, nexus first or just gateway expand. All these feature different timings and kind of harass they can do, this is why I drone scout. You can easily not drone scout, which is fine as most Zergs don’t.
Something I did not mention above was the baneling nest. I will make a baneling nest if I think he’s doing a heavy adept push or some sort of 2 base all in (very easy to scout when no third at 4-4:30 and overlord sacrifice). Alternatively I will use just roaches and make a few ravagers, this is up to you on how you want to defend, I have messed with the baneling version and the downside is if you don’t have enough lings/banes you won’t hold it off and roaches take a lot longer to die. The upgrades for +1 ranged/melee I find useful as lings/banes do more damage and hydra/lurkers do more damage as well. You can go for carapace/ranged if you prefer.
The composition Hydra/lurker is very strong versus any ground style of Protoss, most Protosses tend to do phoenix into chargelot/archon/immortal. This is a defensive style, you do not want to be super aggressive as it’s very easy to get overwhelmed by flanks and the heavy hitters of immortals and archons. The style is designed to hold you off until you can get to hive and add in Broodlords into the mix. You do not want to go Ultras, Ultras will get slaughtered against immortal/archon compositions, if the Protoss is doing a stalker/disruptor, Ultras are very good versus that style.
Dealing with 2 base mass Adepts
A common build by Protoss is to build a ton of Adepts and destroy your economy. The ways to scout this are with an overlord, and whether you scout a lot of adepts or not (can sacrifice a ling, overlord can see this) and the lack of 3rd. The two ways I have found to deal with this, mass ling/bane or roaches. This depends on your style of play and which you prefer.
The downside to ling/bane is if you don’t have enough, you will just die as adepts are very good versus lings. However the downside to roaches is how slow they are (you shouldn’t have roach speed when this hits). Adding in a spine to each base makes it easier to keep drones alive as it’s hard to focus down drones when adepts are hitting you in 2-3 areas at once.
Dealing with Stalker/Disruptor
This is a style I don’t really see, but I do see it every once in awhile. This is a much weaker style then phoenix into chargelot/archon/immortal as spread out Lurkers are very powerful. The main damage to Lurkers against this comp is only the disruptors, stalkers don’t do very well versus them. A good style to do versus this is a heavy ling/ravager style or lurker/ling. Infestors are very good against this as well with heavy ling/ravager support. This style isn’t too strong if you have the right units out and late game Ultras will shred this army up, same with Lurker/broodlord/hydra.
Defending against Phoenix Harass into Chargelot/archon/immortal
The most common style I see and face is this. It is by far the strongest as opening phoenix denies fast Mutalisks and they are very good versus Lurkers. In an engagement the Protoss will lift up the Lurkers with the phoenix while the chargelot/archon/immortal clean everything else up. This can be hard to deal with if you aren’t sure how.
When the Phoenix are out on the map, make sure to pull back all overlords so they don’t kill any. This is essential as this will save you from Supply blocks, let alone having to remake them instead of droning or making more units. Place 2 spores at each base, try to keep queens back by the spores so that they don’t get lifted and destroyed. The next steps are to get Hydras out as soon as you can. The best way to do this is to bank resources, almost like going Mutalisks. This way when making Hydras, a lot come out instead of one by one in which Phoenix can lift and kill them. This way 12 hydras can come out at once and Phoenix won’t go near that. From this point adding in Lurkers and placing some Spores in front of your Lurkers is the best way to go while teching to hive.
Try not to engage in a wide open area when moving Lurkers, flanks and an open area are dream scenarios for this style as Archons/Immortals shred through Lurkers. Also always have an overseer with your Hydra/Lurker composition. Sniping Observers can delay the Protosses push longer, let alone save Lurkers from being lifted. The spores in front are designed to help with this as well. When the Protoss engages the army, have Hydralisks in the back so that chargelots go through the Lurkers first and the Hydras can take out the phoenix, while dishing out damage towards the ground army. Lurkers alone will get smashed, with Hydra support it is much easier to hold this push.
Once you get broodlords, Lurkers under the broodlords are very strong along with hydra support to deal with air compositions, Stalker blink ins and do very good versus Tempests. Vipers/infestors are good additions as you can abduct Tempests or blinding cloud the archon/immortals. Infestors can be good to root in the Protoss army so they can’t run.
Combatting Skytoss
If the Protoss ever gets to the late game composition of Carriers + templar or disruptors, with the main focus being air. The best way to counter it is hydra/ultra/corruptor. In my games versus this style of play, have the Corruptors focus the carriers, just A move the Hydras as they destroy interceptors so fast and Ultras will deal with the templar/disruptor if they are using those as their splash versus hydras. I have found this the most effective way to fight a protoss air army in a head on engagement without spore/queen support.
Make sure to keep Hydras away from the splash, let the Ultras take care of the ground and you should be able to trade very efficiently, even if you lose your army, the Protoss should lose a majority of their air army and the remax should finish them off.
Utilizing Drops
Lurker drops are extremely fun to do versus Protoss as they require detection and if they aren't paying enough attention, the Lurkers can kill a ton of Probes very fast, let alone denying mining. Dropping cracklings into the main or Lurkers in the main as well makes it much harder to deal with. Make sure to try and stay out of range of Cannons so Lurkers can focus them if given the chance.
It can be a bit hard to do this when a ton of Phoenix are on the field as they can fly the phoenix over with an observer and lift the lurkers or kill overlords so you can't just drop, pickup and leave.
Using Lurkers at external Bases
A very useful technique in later stages of this match up is to have a couple lurkers at hard to defend bases. This makes Chargelot/DT warp prisms less likely to take out a base, let alone do damage to the droneline as Observers aren’t normally with warp prism drops or chargelot runbys. This is much easier to defend with and with a couple spines makes it much easier to defend then just relying on Spines or leaving roaches behind. 2 Lurkers are a better defense than 6-8 roaches.
Video of this build:
That brings an end to this guide, if you have any questions feel free to post here or send me a message. If you want to see me come up with builds, feel free to follow my stream at twitch.tv/blade55555 as every build I come up with I test while streaming. Any suggestions or match ups you’d like me to go over with, feel free to suggest that in the comments below. Thanks for reading and hope this helps out any Zergs that are struggling in this match up!
A couple of questions: 1) do you think that Roaches are needed against 2-base chargelot/Immortal timings? I was hit yesterday by a midgame 2-base chargelot/Immortal timing and sticking with Hydras seemed quite weak. 2) what do you think of opening Corruptors first vs Pheonix openings? That would involve getting a Spire at the same time as the Hydra den and significantly delaying Lurkers.
I have a lot of problems getting three hatch to work when opponent has a forge, they always seem to get a cannon up somewhere. Any general tips about going three hatch into early forge?
On January 31 2016 15:46 Hungry101 wrote: Thanks for this, much appreciated as always.
A couple of questions: 1) do you think that Roaches are needed against 2-base chargelot/Immortal timings? I was hit yesterday by a midgame 2-base chargelot/Immortal timing and sticking with Hydras seemed quite weak. 2) what do you think of opening Corruptors first vs Pheonix openings? That would involve getting a Spire at the same time as the Hydra den and significantly delaying Lurkers.
I haven't really faced a 2 base chargelot/immortal timing in months. But if I thought they were doing that then yes I would want roaches.
The problem with corruptor openings vs phoenix is your lurkers are so delayed and that can make it difficult to hold certain timings. I used to do corruptor, but I think going hydra is better when going into Lurkers. If not doing a lurker strategy, corruptor is the better one.
On January 31 2016 15:53 fezvez wrote: Yeah, thanks Blade for another guide! I really enjoy your stuff.
Truth is that I still don't know how to defend proxy gate so perhaps I should go back to your older guides.
I always scout so I see this coming. If I see proxy gates, spine in main, run a pack of lings to his main to kill probes and then use remaining lings and stuff to defend.
On January 31 2016 16:03 IcemanAsi wrote: I have a lot of problems getting three hatch to work when opponent has a forge, they always seem to get a cannon up somewhere. Any general tips about going three hatch into early forge?
Since I drone scout I always scout the forge and I do not go 3 hatch before pool versus forge first. Nothing you can really do to hold a cannon rush when going 3 hatch before pool, one hatch is going to be guaranteed canceled.
Good guide! Even though I'm more of a gasless 3hatch kind of guy, the speed opening will be useful for weird maps like Central. In terms of going for a quick Lair (4:30-5:00) to get Lurkers out quickly to defend an early 4th base -- I love it! I also think that incorporating some Lurker/Crackling drops will help my late game a ton.
A few questions:
1) How many Lurkers do you tend to make before Infestation/Hive? Do you want to get to 8-10 first to be safe, or will you sometimes risk getting an earlier Hive with 3-4 Lurkers if you don't think a large timing is coming?
2) What kind of economic benchmarks are you going for in the early stages (before Hydra production)? Would you say your goal is to reach full 3-base saturation with gas (66+ Drones) by 5:30-6:00?
3) Once you get to Broodlords, do you ever re-produce to a certain Lurker count (if they die)? For example in your guide video you lost your 5th/lurkers but just massed Hydra/Ling/Brood/Viper at that point without more Lurkers, do you feel like their role is mainly to just keep you alive until Broods?
On January 31 2016 22:38 TangSC wrote: Good guide! Even though I'm more of a gasless 3hatch kind of guy, the speed opening will be useful for weird maps like Central. In terms of going for a quick Lair (4:30-5:00) to get Lurkers out quickly to defend an early 4th base -- I love it! I also think that incorporating some Lurker/Crackling drops will help my late game a ton.
A few questions:
1) How many Lurkers do you tend to make before Infestation/Hive? Do you want to get to 8-10 first to be safe, or will you sometimes risk getting an earlier Hive with 3-4 Lurkers if you don't think a large timing is coming?
2) What kind of economic benchmarks are you going for in the early stages (before Hydra production)? Would you say your goal is to reach full 3-base saturation with gas (66+ Drones) by 5:30-6:00?
3) Once you get to Broodlords, do you ever re-produce to a certain Lurker count (if they die)? For example in your guide video you lost your 5th/lurkers but just massed Hydra/Ling/Brood/Viper at that point without more Lurkers, do you feel like their role is mainly to just keep you alive until Broods?
1. You actually have to make a good amount of Lurkers regardless of if you think a timing is coming or not. Depending on how greedy you can be economically, you can start your hive sooner, but you will still want to be pumping out Lurkers. This style I have been doing is heavily influenced by Losira, what he did versus Choya in GSL Code A game 1 I believe is the game? I don't make as many as him (I think he made 30), but I do make at least 15.
2. You definitely want full saturation before Hydra production. Only time you won't have full saturation is if they are doing a 2 base timing.
3. I haven't been able to test as much. I think Lurkers with Broodlords is incredibly powerful, but if they are going air + immortal/archon their kind of useless in head on engagements as you need more anti air rather then Lurkers, but they are still useful for harass/base defense which I think you should always have.
Well, HOLY HELL, here is something I didn't know and lost me a won ZvP game:
Multiple Parasitic Bombs do NOT stack when cast on single unit.
So when Protoss goes mass air with mothership, dropping all your PB's on the mothership does NOT work. You're basically casting only one and refreshing it's time. I hit his mother ship with like 7 pb's and thinking to myself there goes his air army, well, nope, NOTHING died.
Went into a custom game and checked it against an AI, verified it.
Multiple Parasitic Bombs do NOT stack when cast on single unit.
On February 01 2016 06:25 IcemanAsi wrote: Well, HOLY HELL, here is something I didn't know and lost me a won ZvP game:
Multiple Parasitic Bombs do NOT stack when cast on single unit.
So when Protoss goes mass air with mothership, dropping all your PB's on the mothership does NOT work. You're basically casting only one and refreshing it's time. I hit his mother ship with like 7 pb's and thinking to myself there goes his air army, well, nope, NOTHING died.
Went into a custom game and checked it against an AI, verified it.
Multiple Parasitic Bombs do NOT stack when cast on single unit.
ffs I've been trying to stack this whole time.
The blade replay on dusk tower vs tempest archon immortal templar seems tough, there are multiple points in the game where I know I would die on ladder. I have a better idea how to play it at least.
Blade I just wanted to thank you for all your guides and overviews!! You can't imagine how I banged my head when trying to think of a build that will work against protoss. Thanks and keep being the best at what you do! BLADE FIGHTING ^^
Quick question about the build, after you take your 2nd gas in the three hatch opener, you ovy scout then take your lair 430-445.. are you just waiting for the first 100 gas? Or do you purposefully delay it just incase you want to make roaches/baneling nest?
On February 02 2016 23:22 SrirachaBear22 wrote: Quick question about the build, after you take your 2nd gas in the three hatch opener, you ovy scout then take your lair 430-445.. are you just waiting for the first 100 gas? Or do you purposefully delay it just incase you want to make roaches/baneling nest?
It's in case I need to make roaches, but also I would rather pump out a few extra drones before the lair. The 100 gas aligns with that timing for the most part, might be a little over when you go at that time.
I really really enjoy your guides and your videos. More specifically, you talk about how you approach the midgame, as well as the endgame army composition, how it works, and how you can adapt it depending on what the Protoss does.
The way I see it, you do in your video : - Early game ling and optionnaly roaches / banelings - Midgame hydra / ling / lurker - Endgame brood lord / hydra / whatever counters the protoss army (ling VS immortal, ultra VS stalker/disruptor, corruptor VS tempest)
The thing is that this written guide heavily emphasizes the midgame part, but the rest is a bit flimsy. For example, how many roaches do you build if you are denied scouting? If you see phoenixes, do you actually build 0 units (beside the early lings) before your first round of hydra? Can you punish a really really greedy protoss (early 4th base) with this build because I mainly see how the defensive style of this build works)
I really really enjoy your guides and your videos. More specifically, you talk about how you approach the midgame, as well as the endgame army composition, how it works, and how you can adapt it depending on what the Protoss does.
The way I see it, you do in your video : - Early game ling and optionnaly roaches / banelings - Midgame hydra / ling / lurker - Endgame brood lord / hydra / whatever counters the protoss army (ling VS immortal, ultra VS stalker/disruptor, corruptor VS tempest)
The thing is that this written guide heavily emphasizes the midgame part, but the rest is a bit flimsy. For example, how many roaches do you build if you are denied scouting? If you see phoenixes, do you actually build 0 units (beside the early lings) before your first round of hydra? Can you punish a really really greedy protoss (early 4th base) with this build because I mainly see how the defensive style of this build works)
Thanks!
All good questions. So I only make roaches depending on what I scout. If I don't scout anything, I keep a heavy eye on his 3rd base timing (and make spores). If I see no third by 4-4:20, I will start pumping out either a ton of ling and morph banelings or I will add in roaches.
Scouting lings are very important here, because you should see him move out and what his unit comp is.
If I see Phoenix, typically I don't make anything until Hydra UNLESS I scout that he isn't taking a third, or if my ling in the front sees him moving out then I will make whatever units are necessary (ling/bane preferred, sometimes gotta make roaches).
So you can punish a greedy 4th, but not with this build so to speak unless he's doing it insanely greedy like the video I go over, then you can with lings or do a timing if you want and might win, I think I said it in the game, but I could have killed him with a hydra/lurker/ling timing or at least I seriously thought I could. I might not have been able to, hard to say without trying and can theorycraft.
You can threaten an attack and use lings to counter the 4th, things like that are fine and that's how I utilize this style of play.