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Hello TL Strategy!
Why don’t zergs evolve to tier 3 quicker in ZvT?
I am a mid/high masters P player. I watch a lot of pro games and have decent knowledge of all races.
It seems like the disparity between T level 3/3 upgrades vs Z level 2/2 upgrades is much too great in current late game ZvT when Z gets stuck on muta ling/bane and lair tech.
Furthermore, in pro games where the Z reaches tier 3 and (even if they are sticking on muta bane/ling) reaches 3/3 upgrades with Adrenal, the game can quickly swing back into their favor.
Especially with the new patch, T seems very, very strong in TvZ, especially with the upgrade disparity. It seems kinda shitty that Z has to upgrade to a Hive to access more upgrades, but T and P do not.
Honestly, at the highest level, it looks like T should never lose vs Z. Not only has T learned to macro as efficiently as Z, they also have the upgrade disparity if Z gets stuck on lair tech (which is very common), and T has (what seems like) more tactical weapons at their disposal.
What are some of your thoughts on this?
Is it possible for Z to climb the ladder tree more quickly and match the T 3/3 upgrades without losing macro and army cost efficiency?
I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and, since I don’t play the race at a high level, I can’t figure out a decent reason. Seems like Z just needs to build the damn infester pit a lot sooner and get that Hive…
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infestation pit 100 gas hive 150 gas 3/3 500 gas ultra cavern 200 gas chitinous 150 gas adrenal 200 gas
1300 gas = 13 mutas or 52 banelings in the midgame
if it seems like pros and top players should have thought of fast hive before, it's because they did and it didn't work. fast hive only works against a very passive terran (which you can never count on) or when you've taken an early lead and want to extend it rather than going for a kill move, which usually isn't necessary. if youre snute and its a huge map and youre confident in your defense you can probably make it work sometimes, but it's not a stable style nor is it the answer to anything
it's like asking why protoss doesn't go up to carriers faster. playing from behind by a huge amount of gas with no advantage to show for it until all that tech finishes has no reason to work against a good terran
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They don't get 3/3, because most of the time you can't afford it til pretty late in the game.
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On August 15 2014 07:02 brickrd wrote: infestation pit 100 gas hive 150 gas 3/3 500 gas ultra cavern 200 gas chitinous 150 gas adrenal 200 gas
1300 gas = 13 mutas or 52 banelings in the midgame
if it seems like pros and top players should have thought of fast hive before, it's because they did and it didn't work. fast hive only works against a very passive terran (which you can never count on) or when you've taken an early lead and want to extend it rather than going for a kill move, which usually isn't necessary. if youre snute and its a huge map and youre confident in your defense you can probably make it work sometimes, but it's not a stable style nor is it the answer to anything
it's like asking why protoss doesn't go up to carriers faster. playing from behind by a huge amount of gas with no advantage to show for it until all that tech finishes has no reason to work against a good terran
Do you share my thoughts that T upgrading to 3/3 more efficiently than Z is an issue? If so, do you think there is a solution to the upgrade disparity?
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On August 15 2014 07:08 mewithoutDrew wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 07:02 brickrd wrote: infestation pit 100 gas hive 150 gas 3/3 500 gas ultra cavern 200 gas chitinous 150 gas adrenal 200 gas
1300 gas = 13 mutas or 52 banelings in the midgame
if it seems like pros and top players should have thought of fast hive before, it's because they did and it didn't work. fast hive only works against a very passive terran (which you can never count on) or when you've taken an early lead and want to extend it rather than going for a kill move, which usually isn't necessary. if youre snute and its a huge map and youre confident in your defense you can probably make it work sometimes, but it's not a stable style nor is it the answer to anything
it's like asking why protoss doesn't go up to carriers faster. playing from behind by a huge amount of gas with no advantage to show for it until all that tech finishes has no reason to work against a good terran Do you share my thoughts that T upgrading to 3/3 more efficiently than Z is an issue? If so, do you think there is a solution to the upgrade disparity? i think with the widow mine buff winning zvt is back to being about creep and counterattacks. if your creep is bad when 3/3 hits and you haven't done economic damage then i think you're dead. imo the best way to play against terran now is a Life-ish style where you use relentless counterattacks and early mobility to prevent terran from being comfortable enough to push forever and land a 4th. and ofc if you can get 20+ mutas and fly into his base that always helps too. but yea the wm buff changed the landscape of the matchup, defensive zergs are no longer as intimidating as they used to be
i think in the future we could even see more mass queen openers with 3/4 queens for constant creeping and possibly more gimmicks like baneling mines or dedicating overseers to contaminating ebays, but thats just theorycraft on my part
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On August 15 2014 07:08 mewithoutDrew wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 07:02 brickrd wrote: infestation pit 100 gas hive 150 gas 3/3 500 gas ultra cavern 200 gas chitinous 150 gas adrenal 200 gas
1300 gas = 13 mutas or 52 banelings in the midgame
if it seems like pros and top players should have thought of fast hive before, it's because they did and it didn't work. fast hive only works against a very passive terran (which you can never count on) or when you've taken an early lead and want to extend it rather than going for a kill move, which usually isn't necessary. if youre snute and its a huge map and youre confident in your defense you can probably make it work sometimes, but it's not a stable style nor is it the answer to anything
it's like asking why protoss doesn't go up to carriers faster. playing from behind by a huge amount of gas with no advantage to show for it until all that tech finishes has no reason to work against a good terran Do you share my thoughts that T upgrading to 3/3 more efficiently than Z is an issue? If so, do you think there is a solution to the upgrade disparity?
It's not an issue, zerg can still trade better than terran on creep or use mass baneling to counteract the effects of 3-3. Also, if zerg trades well in the midgame and is able to expand fast he can tech to hive in a decent time.
Also, zerg doesn't really need 3-3 to win. If the zerg gets ahead he can simply gather a bank and lots of larva, make a shit-ton of banelings to force a trade with the terran army and then remax faster than the terran can with a similar army. Another option is to go mass muta with banelings at home and force the terran into an unfavorable engagement on creep while the mutas kill his economy and production. 3-3 is more important for ultras, as they're far too weak without their 5 armor.
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Peter Pan Zerg, man. 50 2-2 banelings are much scarier than 30 3-3 banelings.
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[QUOTE It seems kinda shitty that Z has to upgrade to a Hive to access more upgrades, but T and P do not. [/QUOTE]
This is a statement I always agreed on, but ZERG can remax in an instant, most of the time we immortal all-in with +2 against ling hydra and the protoss loses, its cuz Zerg can make more units at a time, so unless Protoss gets AOE, Zerg is fine. (Terran bio is ok!! )
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I remember back in the Innovation heyday it seemed particularly a big problem in Korea where Zergs would actually get stuck on T2 but nowadays it seems Zergs usually make it to T3, albeit a bit later than the terrans.
I agree with the above posters, the mass baneling or mass muta style is what caused the widow mine to get reverted, and it was terran who could not win against zerg in the mid/late game. All that the recent buff has done is force zerg to get to T3, and I think the resulting games have shown reasonable balance.
after all, I think even with the new mines zergs have done a reasonable job of hanging onto their fourth, which is usually the point at which zergs find enough gas to tech to hive (as opposed to getting much more muta/bling)
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Blah. Already been mentioned.
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I think a big factor is that a lot of TvZ is centered around a 3-base parade and Terrans hold off on taking a 4th for so long so they can keep that constant aggression going. A lot of the time the game ends in one way or another based on that 3-4 minute stretch of constant rallying and constant fights. If Zerg stops spending money on mutas and banelings to put up an Infestation Pit and Hive, then they are that much weaker to the constant rallies.
Even when it gets that far, it's hard for both sides to hold onto mining bases due to the speed of Mutalisks and Medivacs that often there's not much of a reason to get onto a different unit composition if you can just starve your opponent out.
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3-3 for Zerg is nice, but not the nonplusultra goal you want to reach. Imo, in terms of setup priorities in ZvBio it goes like this: 1) maintaining a high enough baneling count not to die to pushes 2) maintaining a high enough muta count not to die to drops 3) not falling behind in more than 2 upgrades 4) getting more mutalisks, so you can deny bases and combat smaller armies with them on their own 5) get 3-3, keep on upgrading mutas 6) get an ultralisk cavern to threaten a possible ultraswitch/timing 7) actually having just enough ultras to force less marines but not enough to make you vulnerable to marauders 8) get adrenalin glands, because you have enough money to throw 200/200 out of the window
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United States4883 Posts
On August 15 2014 17:39 Big J wrote: 3-3 for Zerg is nice, but not the nonplusultra goal you want to reach. Imo, in terms of setup priorities in ZvBio it goes like this: 1) maintaining a high enough baneling count not to die to pushes 2) maintaining a high enough muta count not to die to drops 3) not falling behind in more than 2 upgrades 4) getting more mutalisks, so you can deny bases and combat smaller armies with them on their own 5) get 3-3, keep on upgrading mutas 6) get an ultralisk cavern to threaten a possible ultraswitch/timing 7) actually having just enough ultras to force less marines but not enough to make you vulnerable to marauders 8) get adrenalin glands, because you have enough money to throw 200/200 out of the window
Adrenal glands is >>>>>>>>>>> 3/3.
Always always always get adrenal glands before 3/3.
But yeah, the idea is to get to ~25 mutas + 2/2 ling/bling maxed out on 4 bases, and then you can start getting teching to hive off the back of this setup. Generally, adrenal glands + ultralisk cavern is the best route to go, and then once you have ~4-5 ultras, then you can get +3/+3 and infestors.
I usually don't upgrade the mutas past 2/1 because I think it's better to focus on your ultra/infestor count at that point, but I could be wrong.
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On August 15 2014 18:58 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 17:39 Big J wrote: 3-3 for Zerg is nice, but not the nonplusultra goal you want to reach. Imo, in terms of setup priorities in ZvBio it goes like this: 1) maintaining a high enough baneling count not to die to pushes 2) maintaining a high enough muta count not to die to drops 3) not falling behind in more than 2 upgrades 4) getting more mutalisks, so you can deny bases and combat smaller armies with them on their own 5) get 3-3, keep on upgrading mutas 6) get an ultralisk cavern to threaten a possible ultraswitch/timing 7) actually having just enough ultras to force less marines but not enough to make you vulnerable to marauders 8) get adrenalin glands, because you have enough money to throw 200/200 out of the window Adrenal glands is >>>>>>>>>>> 3/3. Always always always get adrenal glands before 3/3. But yeah, the idea is to get to ~25 mutas + 2/2 ling/bling maxed out on 4 bases, and then you can start getting teching to hive off the back of this setup. Generally, adrenal glands + ultralisk cavern is the best route to go, and then once you have ~4-5 ultras, then you can get +3/+3 and infestors. I usually don't upgrade the mutas past 2/1 because I think it's better to focus on your ultra/infestor count at that point, but I could be wrong. Meh, the way i play/described it, you want to get really deep into baneling/muta. Zerglongs are just throw away and tank mines, mess with the pathing and clear up so the amount of zerglings in a combat is always too low to justify adrenalin over 8extra banes imo. Then, there is no reason apart from research time to ever, ever, ever get adrenalin over +3. And imo +3 armor is even more important since it greatly helps banelings vs marines, but +3attack doesnt help banes as much. Yeah, 4-5ultras is a good count to have and I guess I should cover infestors (which are similar to ultras initially). I think upgrading mutas further is really helpful, especially the attack to kill medivacs/mines more quickly.
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i can only assume you dont play z if asking this question, if you do then hmmm. This is simply the reason ive not read any other posts so im going to assume this has been said many times
WE CANT TECH to tier 3 just like that!!!!
1 - It costs way too much gas and we need to be on 4 bases. the second we go for that 4th in come the drops, guess what we have to do to delay the damage , , ,spend eco. Make units, no more drones for a while and you ALWAYS do some damage or at the very very least delay.
2 - Your army is relentless. 50 minreals for a marinegoodunit and whatever a mine is to do WAY more cost efficient damage, we spend the only resource we have LARVA to simply hold , a clump of 5 marines will decimate 4 larvas worth . . the price is the same but the larva doesnt, if we so much as miss an inject that push carries on then we have to wait for the hatch of the probably next 4 larva spawns RINSE REPEAT above but we may hold this time cos of the lower health . . but erm medivacs. you see where this is going and its why its hard for lower level zergs to hold terrans as their main mechanic for producing units can be forgot, we cant select all baracks and holm m and not worry for 3-4 minutes
3 - put the above 2 together and its an apm nightmare, thank god zerg is the swarm race as micro to a point cants exists with a 40 second cycle of units,inject,creepspread,overlords.
4 - Gas. god. If the terran is super harass, multiprong i cant see how zerg should ever win, we need the resources and the mobility of the terran army early-mid game is amazing, i love TvZ played well, we really need to (as Idra said) JUST hold the pushes till mid/late with JUST enough units while paying super close attention to eco. This is the mark of the master zerg player, that top 1% of all starcraft players. Gas is the issue, if you leave us along ur right tier 3 is great . . just make iut hard as fuck for us to get there and terrans should be ^^ all the way to the bank
Terrans i feel gold - masters have it easier to jump the leagues because the macro and mechanics are there now and the units are pretty good (if they were to play only tvz) where the zergs units vs drones takes quite a while to get right, its all i look at in my replays, did i spend +50 supply too much on overlords sitting at 73/130 . . thats why i got killed at 10mins , spent the larvas and cash on those things, in other games why didnt i have enough units? . .shit only 13 drones on each base and i mistakedly stuck 6 drones on that gas#. in others moneys low . . no larva . .fuck queens sitting on 75 energy.
So tier3 is a nice idea. it gets me that we have to get to that where the other races can build their tier 1 with the upgrades and do a decent job. Dont get me wrong with any of this im not balance whining at all, i think the game IS balanced as ive seen all compositions beat over all of the 9 matchups. the game is too excellent and lots of food for thought when you lose. there is simply no other game like this and its a pleasure to play and manage to write so much about 1 specific issue within the game . . .god bliz, keep it up!
edit: really sorry for this writeup, watching gsl at same time with a little girl screaming house down . . didnt typo and grammar check!
edit2: i read someone saying the instant remax. Yes maybe we can but.....
1.One ultra takes a minute to pop, usually you cant make more than 3 at once unless ur macro slipped but the terran can make (depending on rax n techlabs) 6 maras at once . .they cost a hell of a lsot less and get this . . 1 concussive shell later, 2 marauders will kill any amount of ultras (please insert mkp micro here tho) Ultras if not kind of microed a bit herp derp over each other and get nothing done
2. their units are streaming and usually already at ur base when you have to remax . . they hatch and ai wigs out, everything dies without getting a shot off. This frustrates me the most! I know iwould of held pushes IF those 6 yes 6 zerglings popped and didnt die on pop
edit3: Just played a game where it required an ultra switch i found i could only get the tech when id spent all larva and was still floating the resources (but one was totally spent). Terran forever pressure on nat, 3rd and deny oif 4th, i couldnt get the units out if i teched! Its hard! watching some of the games with the battlegrounds, gsl and wcs they dont get to 3/3 until they have 5 bases it seems, to stand any chance making the fial tier 3 to work you need to be on at least 8 gas to match the mineral intake and spend most. Stephano ive noticed in the last 6 games ive seen stock piles gas like nothing else, i think this however may be down to the SH play hes been going, hes never really been a fan of banelings either.
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Thanks for all the feedback everyone.
Since I am not a zerg player myself, it was hard to understand some of the more complex or fundamental issues around the tier 3 tech route
It seems like three major components add to a successful ZvT game that allow Z to hold strong pushing from T and still maintain decent macro into tier 3. They are:
Creep spread Keeping the fourth Ensuring Z has enough larva - strong larva mechanic
I was overlooking these components of the ZvT game play while watching a lot of pro streams and games over the last month. Thanks for the clarification guys. Feel free to add anything that I might have missed.
I might want to start playing Z a lot more now it is my second favourite race in the game.
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To answer your question quite simply:
The terran 3 base, 2 2 MMMM parade push is designed to murder the zerg, if they go for hive tech off muta ling bling play. The terran push hits RIGHT as you sink 1300 gas into tier 3, and the zerg WONT have enough banelings.
This is why many zergs opt to stay at muta ling bling 2 2, with 4-5 bases, and keep trading. The purpose is to use that 1300 gas for banelings, destroy the terran timing, and then starve the terran out.
The trigger for hive is if the terran goes for a 4th base, OR if you just had a dream engagement.
EDIT: please note that if you go for ling bling infestor, you CAN afford tier 3. But it is harder vs drops.
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Norway839 Posts
On August 15 2014 06:52 mewithoutDrew wrote: Is it possible for Z to climb the ladder tree more quickly and match the T 3/3 upgrades without losing macro and army cost efficiency?
No, not on average, rushing for Hive is almost always unreasonable.
The benefits from rushing to hive are too small to outweigh the deficit in the midgame, the muta cloud is worth a lot more on average than faster hive. The problem isn't about starting the Infestation Pit and the Hive - it's fairly cheap - it's just that you need roughly 1000 gas to get all the benefits from the hive rolling. And that's not something you really afford until you've been on 4base 8gas for a while. And to get there, you need 3base 6gas 2/2 Muta Ling Baneling, and lots of it.
3/3 Zerglings in particular aren't very effective until the army sizes of Terran drop below a certain threshold. The same is kind of true for Ultralisk - they are good, but not very amazing without Mutalisk support. Zerglings act as cannon fodder and 2/2 is good enough for having your army survive long enough - THEN after making a ton of Mutas you can finally start the hive.
Zerg as a race is focused around the Mutalisk vs T. It's the only unit type to usually survive a fight - the rest are traded away, almost always cost-inefficiently. Ultralisk+Queen with transfusions is the exception to this, but its sustain over time compared to the Mutalisk is nowhere close. In short, a bigger cloud of Mass Muta is way more useful than a handful of Ultralisk. Since infestors were nerfed in HotS, Zerg pretty much depends on Mutalisk to take somewhat decent trades - the other units simply just die and don't trade efficiently enough.
In general Zerg doesn't have a lot of units that trade cost-efficiently with 4M, especially after the widow mine revert. This is why we've been seeing more counter-attacks post-patch to avoid actual confrontation with the Terran army and less straight-up pure defensive play. The new Muta/SH combination style that I showed at Gfinity G3 vs JJAKJI and MMA is the exception to this - it's capable of trading neutrally to positively, but it's still mostly unexplored among other pros.
Until that possibly becomes a thing, you will almost always see Zerg win in modern ZvT by making counter-attacks with Mutalisks, 2/2 Ling/bane, Baneling defense on creep at home - or by huge army momentum gains from amazing defensive engagements or mistakes from Terran.
Rushing Hive has no reason to be common because of the reasons mentioned above. It's too expensive, too slow, not enough sustained power in your army. ZvT is simply not built around it. It is possible to rush to fast 3base 6gas ultras, but in the end without Mutalisk support it serves the same purpose as an extra fat roach and one could just as well play 3base roach/hydra.
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IMO the costs are not the real problem. Sure u will have less Banelings, sure u will have a Few less Mutas, but u can handle that by only taking engagements on creep. The worst problem is the TIME u need. Hive takes al long as a Hatch to finish. then u have to build an additional building (greater spire or Ultra cavern) and then u can build units that will take their time as well (about 60sec) so u need about 3 ingame minutes to have ur T3 Untis out, while trading with the T. during that time u can not get agressive, because u need all ur forces to defend. That means u give the T a window of 3 Minutes where he has 3/3 already done or near completion and he can do whatever he wants. Harass, Multidrop, Paradepush, expand ando so on.
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