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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On September 13 2011 04:19 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 04:16 Zelniq wrote: the reason why people are having mixed results is because it does matter how clumped the ball is/what type of units are clumped. some clumps allow for drops on top of them, others force to the side..depends if there are little tiny gaps (not gaps that look big enough for a bane to fit, even smaller ones will do) Yeah took some attempts but i replicated that earlier today. Thought the FOW made a difference but in the end it didnt.
Weird. I wonder if there's a way to standard how spaced-out your units are to get some better testing in? From the sounds of it, though, this will be a non-issue.
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now we zergs are truely dead
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It's probably a bug. Just report is as such. It isn't official until it's in the patch notes.
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Thank you Zelniq for vanquishing my fears. Move along folks, nothing to see here.
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Basically strategies that once were just queue and forget will actually require attention and micro, like the terran (and toss to some extent) counterparts.
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A close look at the 1.3 video is very revealing. The 2nd baneling dropped gets deflected to the edge just like all of the ones in the 1.4 video. The 3rd and 4th manage to find a hole in the center, and the zealots dying makes enough room to allow all others to drop.
In other words, the deflection isn't a change on the PTR. The zealots in the 1.3 video just weren't in perfect enough formation to prevent dropping entirely.
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this is retarded, no one have any idea on why Blizzard decided to do these nerfs to zerg. I can't even think of one single reason...
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Please read the whole post : "if the original order was issued on a fogged location."
This means you can't just shift-move drop onto a probe line and leave it. THAT IS ALL. If you actually watch your OL and don't just shift-move drop over the fog of war, you are fine.
I have tested this for about an hour in PTR and non-PTR unit testers.
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This is lame. The "fix" is about as bad as taking out hold position lurkers or muta stacking. :| In other words, Blizzard shouldn't simply nerf vital aspects of Zerg play for the sake of having a "bug-free" game.
At least it'll still be a little viable, but come on, ovies are already pretty easy to snipe, are they not?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:06 rale wrote:A close look at the 1.3 video is very revealing. The 2nd baneling dropped gets deflected to the edge just like all of the ones in the 1.4 video. The 3rd and 4th manage to find a hole in the center, and the zealots dying makes enough room to allow all others to drop. In other words, the deflection isn't a change on the PTR. The zealots in the 1.3 video just weren't in perfect enough formation to prevent dropping entirely.
Ooh, that's very revealing. So here's a thought: we could try running the same test, but BEFORE dropping the enemy banelings onto the zealots, dropp some banelings that are allied with the zealots in there and fill all the baneling-sized holes! Then, there's no chance of failure.
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On September 13 2011 05:19 Blazinghand wrote: So here's a thought: we could try running the same test, but BEFORE dropping the enemy banelings onto the zealots, dropp some banelings that are allied with the zealots in there and fill all the baneling-sized holes! Then, there's no chance of failure.
Not quite right, dropping allied banes will make new holes. The key here is the footprint of units, such as Zealots and Stalkers. If you have a bunch of Stalkers right-clicked on a Colossus, are there holes to drop on?
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Canada13372 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:19 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 05:06 rale wrote:A close look at the 1.3 video is very revealing. The 2nd baneling dropped gets deflected to the edge just like all of the ones in the 1.4 video. The 3rd and 4th manage to find a hole in the center, and the zealots dying makes enough room to allow all others to drop. In other words, the deflection isn't a change on the PTR. The zealots in the 1.3 video just weren't in perfect enough formation to prevent dropping entirely. Ooh, that's very revealing. So here's a thought: we could try running the same test, but BEFORE dropping the enemy banelings onto the zealots, dropp some banelings that are allied with the zealots in there and fill all the baneling-sized holes! Then, there's no chance of failure.
Very smart. I would do this if i was at home but unfortunately am not atm.
Another thing to note is would someone try in a custom game with someone else to do a shift queue baneling drop into a mineral line? Doesnt really matter which match up - just to see if this effects automated through shift commands baneling drops in the mineral line.
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If true, that really blows. Zergs went from being extremely one dimensional against protoss (and losing) to coming up with some fun and cool ways to play against them. Bane drops were one of the coolest strategies to watch from a spectators point of view and it sucks that it may be less effective.
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o.O this makes no sense as to why they would do it. I mean it wasn't a broken mechanic or anything and frankly Protoss is fairly good against non-dropped banelings
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:23 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 05:19 Blazinghand wrote:On September 13 2011 05:06 rale wrote:A close look at the 1.3 video is very revealing. The 2nd baneling dropped gets deflected to the edge just like all of the ones in the 1.4 video. The 3rd and 4th manage to find a hole in the center, and the zealots dying makes enough room to allow all others to drop. In other words, the deflection isn't a change on the PTR. The zealots in the 1.3 video just weren't in perfect enough formation to prevent dropping entirely. Ooh, that's very revealing. So here's a thought: we could try running the same test, but BEFORE dropping the enemy banelings onto the zealots, dropp some banelings that are allied with the zealots in there and fill all the baneling-sized holes! Then, there's no chance of failure. Very smart. I would do this if i was at home but unfortunately am not atm. Another thing to note is would someone try in a custom game with someone else to do a shift queue baneling drop into a mineral line? Doesnt really matter which match up - just to see if this effects automated through shift commands baneling drops in the mineral line.
I'm not sure this would have any impact though, right? I thought mining works take up 0 pathing space while mining, so the mineral line drops should be unaffected-- the banelings will be able to jump out like normal unless there's a bunch of tightly-packed units already in the mineral line.
EDIt
On September 13 2011 05:22 MangoTango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 05:19 Blazinghand wrote: So here's a thought: we could try running the same test, but BEFORE dropping the enemy banelings onto the zealots, dropp some banelings that are allied with the zealots in there and fill all the baneling-sized holes! Then, there's no chance of failure. Not quite right, dropping allied banes will make new holes. The key here is the footprint of units, such as Zealots and Stalkers. If you have a bunch of Stalkers right-clicked on a Colossus, are there holes to drop on?
Well you could put the Zealots on "Hold Position" first and then drop the allied banelings; this way the zealots won't move. Then, once all the holes are filled, use enemy baneling drops to test.
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From my tests:
Non PTR, 24 zealots packed together cause banelings to drop on the outside of them. So no change there. Adding in stalkers or other fat units to the mix usually causes gaps to form (even when you try to blink into the gaps). So the change will not affect many normal games that I've ever seen. Like no affect after the bug fix.
Soooo.... baneling drops act about the same unless you have about 40-75 zealots (80-150 supply worth) packed tightly together on hold position. And one gap (a sentry that died from fungal for instance) in the ball will allow banelings to land there anyway. Colossi count as air units for this packing rule (i.e. they don't fill in gaps).
The only time this will have a noticeable affect is when:
a. Protoss is only using one ground unit type (or same sized units, like all stalkers + sentries maybe?). EDIT: Sentries aren't the same size as Stalkers, scratch that. b. He packs them all togther. c. He holds position (or something causes this affect to be simulated). d. He doesn't have enough anti-air to kill the overlords anyway.
I'm struggling to find the actual measurable nerf. What is all the complaining about?
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Wait, it might actually be a mistake.
Back then, like the bug fix note says, you could unload banelings onto a deathball directly when you issue it in the fog (better than when you do it without the fog trick). But it seems now, when you have vision and unload, it is also changed/affected. I'm wondering if this is a separate change (that is not noted, aka Ninja fix) or if this is an error from Blizzard trying to fix the fog bug.
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unrealsitic scenario produces skewed results
This is like saying zerglings are cost effective vs marines, they are in super small number but 10+marines zerglings of any number melt.
The protoss ball will ALWAYS have gaps because of the motion of units, stalkers make large gaps as it is in real games because they are moving to get to the front.
Please try this during a fight on the PTR instead of a theoretical scenario on super packed zealots.
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why are htey doing all these zerg nerfs and not touching terran? zvp is relatively balanced as is
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On September 13 2011 06:03 Blacklizard wrote: From my tests:
Non PTR, 24 zealots packed together cause banelings to drop on the outside of them. So no change there. Adding in stalkers or other fat units to the mix usually causes gaps to form (even when you try to blink into the gaps). So the change will not affect many normal games that I've ever seen. Like no affect after the bug fix.
Soooo.... baneling drops act about the same unless you have about 40-75 zealots (80-150 supply worth) packed tightly together on hold position. And one gap (a sentry that died from fungal for instance) in the ball will allow banelings to land there anyway. Colossi count as air units for this packing rule (i.e. they don't fill in gaps).
The only time this will have a noticeable affect is when:
a. Protoss is only using one ground unit type. b. He packs them all togther. c. He holds position (or something causes this affect to be simulated). d. He doesn't have enough anti-air to kill the overlords anyway.
I'm struggling to find the actual measurable nerf. What is all the complaining about?
Having reviewed Blacklizard's statements and the information others have provided, I'm inclined to agree. I retract any statements I made which implied that this would actually be a nerf... it sounds like realistically this won't have an impact on protoss deathball.
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