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EDIT: to fix timing per post below; to fix link per post below; to correct IdrA's mutalisk #.
This is my first thread topic on TL strat forum so be kind!
The purpose of this thread is to discuss Goody’s TvZ mech build. I was inspired to seek discussion on this after watching him beat IdrA and Spanishiwa with it in a very handy fashion. Here are links to the VODs.
vIdrA vSpanishiwa vSpanishiwa
And here’s a link to a rep where he uses it to win against Nerchio. vNerchio
Here’s a rep where he loses with it against Nerchio.
Losing to Nerchio, Tal'Darim
Goody’s Plan
I’m not going to break his build down by food counts because the purpose here is to explore reactions to what it produces, not to explain how to do it. Goody opens with a tech lab barracks and produces 1-3 reapers, which he uses to attempt some cost effective harassment (+attempted bunkers). He then builds a factory on the tech lab and begins researching blue flame and producing hellions. He then begins BF hellion harassment, which continues as long as it can be successful. In the meantime he expands, begins 1/1 mech upgrades, and begins massing tanks and thors. BF hellion harassment may or may not continue via drop. He then pushes out with a VERY strong mix of Thors, Hellions and Siege Tanks at around the 16:30-17:00 (game time) mark. Thor numbers are dependent on whether the Z has shown mutas.
IdrA
After managing the initial reaper harass, IdrA used queens and two spinecrawlers to minimize the economic damage of the hellion harass. However, drop BF harass by Goody bypassed the spine at the main and proved effective. After Goody showed drops, IdrA teched to spire and produced a sizable force (~19) of mutalisks, which successfully delayed Goody’s expansions and killed some workers. He then teched to infestors. However, when Goody’s force arrived the mutalisks were effectively kept out of the fight by the high Thor count, and IdrA simply didn’t have enough other units to scratch Goody’s force.
Spanishiwa
In these games, Goody did a stupid amount economic damage with BF hellion harass. In the first game S built a late roach warren and never built spinecrawlers. Goody put him so far behind that S resorted to infestor harass to try to catch up. He succeeded in killing some workers and delaying Goody’s economy. However, when the push came S had a bunch of infestors and very few other units to deal with it.
In the second game S got roaches out earlier and managed the BF hellion harass better—but the hellions still did major economic damage by running around the roaches. S then massed infestors; but once his small support force had been eliminated, mass infestor had nothing to stop a combination of hellion/tank/thor/raven.
Nerchio
In the game he wins, his BF hellion drop does outrageous economic damage. Nerchio engages the push with roaches and infestors but effectively no lings. In the game he loses, he loses due to a basic positioning error. He parks his army below the ramp on Tal Darim; Nerchio circles around through the “third” and breaks into the nat and the main, killing 20+ workers and several tanks. Nerchio reinforces and then breaks the remaining T army.
Analysis
This build succeeds because it is hard on Zerg’s larva. The point of the reaper/hellion harass is not to reduce resource collection rate but to force the zerg to spend larva rebuilding drones. This ensures victory later on, because it seems that the cornerstone of beating the main push has to be a very larva-inefficient army of upgraded mass lings, supported with roaches to tank damage and infestors with NP to cut down the number of enemy units firing at once. The larva-efficient units (roaches, infestors, mutas) don’t cut it against this army in a straight-up fight.
Therefore, it seems to me that the right response to this strategy has to involve static defense on the mineral line. The investment in a few spinecrawlers to shut down the loss of workers seems more than worth it. It seems to me that a macro hatch to increase larva production is also a good idea. Avoid mutas and banes, tech to NP and produce roaches, while massing lings with excess minerals. Make infestors but do not “mass” them.
The other key element of defense is positioning. Once the tanks siege up outside the Z’s natural, it’s too late, pretty much regardless of army comp. Z needs to pick a wide-open space on the attack path from T’s base and commit to engage there. Roaches go in first to take tank shots followed by slings. If possible position infestors on high ground to deliver NPs. If high ground isn’t available I would cut down infestor numbers because they are likely to be less useful.
Finally, counterattacks are not as strong as they might seem. Counterattacks might seem good, because thors and tanks are slow and the terran army needs to stay together. However, killing a lot of the terran’s workers is not a good trade for losing all your bases, and the push is so strong that sending half your army against it is going to be a one-sided massacre. Nerchio won not really through a counter attack but by bypassing Goody’s army at a time when Goody’s army was not threatening him. Nerchio thus demonstrates a great principle for beating this strat: go around the T army rather than engaging it. But this will only work on certain maps and depends somewhat on errors by T.
Responses to Anticipated Criticisms
“This is way too theorycrafty! Show us replays of this working!” This is a [D] and not a [G]. I’m not good enough to play Goody! I looked for reps of him losing with this strat and only found the one game against Nerchio. Replays of him losing that support or undermine my thoughts are a welcome contribution to the thread. If you don't want to discuss just don't post; if everyone feels the same way this post will drop off the strat forum in 5 minutes.
“Tanks and BF Hellions OWN Roaches and Lings” Very true, which is why I believe the circumstances of the engagement are important. The roaches need to take the siege shots to allow the lings to surround and the infestors to close for NP (or FG). I.e. the roaches need to go in a little ahead, which is the opposite of what happens if Z A-moves the whole army.
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you forgot to mention his matches against NesTea in the TSL 3
Game 1 on Shakuras Plateau
Game 2 on Xel'Naga Caverns
Edit: Forgot there were 3 games lol
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Thanks! I did not know about those. There are also reps of him using this vs. Catz. I didn't discuss them because the post was getting too long but they are at www.sc2rep.com.
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Thanks for making this thread, haven't seen his play in a while, time to get up to date again :D
Edit:
He then pushes out with a VERY strong mix of Thors, Hellions and Siege Tanks at around the 12:30 mark
I thought that sounded a bit early, you mean 12:30 real time but actually more like 16:50 in the game :D
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On July 15 2011 05:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Thanks for making this thread, haven't seen his play in a while, time to get up to date again :D Edit: Show nested quote +He then pushes out with a VERY strong mix of Thors, Hellions and Siege Tanks at around the 12:30 mark I thought that sounded a bit early, you mean 12:30 real time but actually more like 16:50 in the game :D
You're right, of course. Thanks!
Will edit to fix.
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A few things people don't seem to notice about goody's builds : He always builds 1 viking independently of his build. He uses it to gain map control and snipe a few Overlords if possible. He also uses Hellions vs non-light units because of 2 reasons : It has splash damage and its also a good meatshield for tanks and thors alike. The AOE damage is an effective DPS multiplier. He has an AOE build which destroys standart Zerg play. (siege tanks hellions and thors are three units with aoe.
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On July 15 2011 05:41 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: you forgot to mention his matches against NesTea in the TSL 3
Jesus f**king Christ!!
Those games were immense, thanks for sharing
EDIT & RE: Topic
I think half of his strength comes from the common sense plays that he makes:
-building a single Viking to harass overlords and deny scouting -using BFH to stop "lazy" zergling usage (a lot of Z players turn to lings as a quick fix solution without considering whether they are the best unit) -use of unseiged tanks -use of raven and banshee when the opportunity presents itself -willing to accept "trading" scenarios when he considers the trade worthwhile (such as sacking BFH to keep drone counts down)
I don't think his success is necessarily down to a build order, or a specific strategy. It's just intelligent play that makes use of great timings and all the tools that are available him.
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Just thinking out loud but after scouting the tech labbed factory and hellions could some defensive roaches in position deflect enough of the bf hellion harrass while teching to lair and attempting to use mutas to exploit the immobility of the thor to harrass, because mutas against the initial one or two thors with magic box might be efficient enough to take them out and the lack of anti air could then be a problem for goody Also, goody could respond with a earlier starport to try and continue harrass with bf hellion drops thus delaying the thors further Ex game vs idra I just believe that spines dunt stop the hellions unless theres a heavy number in the mineral line, at which point one or two good shots can still be extremely effective, so id argue roaches, with well positioned evo chambers to stop the bf hellions into mass muta, when engaging using roach muta? Obviously if a bunch of drones are lost then this wont work but im just talking =p
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As a Zerg I feel more and more Terrans do that build. Because of looking for the right decisions to fight the hellion-thor-tank-army, I would like you to fix that link of Goody losing against Nerchio which isn't working properly. Somehow it's nearly the same address as the replay of Goody winning. Would be cool and thanks for the analysis.
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On July 15 2011 07:37 TobiWan wrote: As a Zerg I feel more and more Terrans do that build. Because of looking for the right decisions to fight the hellion-thor-tank-army, I would like you to fix that link of Goody losing against Nerchio which isn't working properly. Somehow it's nearly the same address as the replay of Goody winning. Would be cool and thanks for the analysis.
Fixed! Thanks, good catch.
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The problem is the balance between Tanks and Thors. If you go hellion and make slightly too few Thors your whole army will be wiped out by mass muta. If you instead use Marines as a complement to your Tanks and Thors you are much safer if your balance between Tanks and Thors at some point is not perfect.
Marines are just as good as wiping out mineral lines as Hellions plus they can snipe the hatcheries which is often even better then killing the drones. I see no reason to use hellions as mineral dump instead of marines, marines do ok/good vs everything but banelings while Hellions excel against speedlings but suck vs everything else. Marines complement Tank/Thor better than hellions and is a much better mineral dump in almost every case.
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if you use Marines you need medivacs, stim/shield and upgrades. It just does not flow well and your tank/thor count will be much smaller than with a hellion dump.
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I've been watching a lot of good's TvZ lately, and I'm not convinced that his victories are a result of skill as much as zerg players responding badly to an unusual style. His trick seems to be overcommitting to harass, so that he hits the zerg with waves of bf hellions long after most terrans would have switched to tank/marine. In the current metagame, z is scared of a midgame push. Midgame harass with a powerful lategame mech push is unexpected, but once the metagame shifts and goody isn't able to kill huge numbers of drones with bf hellion harass in every game, his style is going to fall apart.
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On July 15 2011 08:38 pwadoc wrote: I've been watching a lot of good's TvZ lately, and I'm not convinced that his victories are a result of skill as much as zerg players responding badly to an unusual style. His trick seems to be overcommitting to harass, so that he hits the zerg with waves of bf hellions long after most terrans would have switched to tank/marine. In the current metagame, z is scared of a midgame push. Midgame harass with a powerful lategame mech push is unexpected, but once the metagame shifts and goody isn't able to kill huge numbers of drones with bf hellion harass in every game, his style is going to fall apart. EmpireNerchio has played GoOdy over and over and over and has good anti mech ZvT, but it's still even games when they play. And Nerchio is definitely no pushover
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On July 15 2011 08:55 aFF.TEEN wrote: EmpireNerchio has played GoOdy over and over and over and has good anti mech ZvT, but it's still even games when they play. And Nerchio is definitely no pushover
The last series I saw them play didn't seem even at all. Basically Nerchio countered all of GoOdy's harass attempts and got a huge lead. GoOdy commits to so much harass that he doesn't have an army until really late in the game.
Just on the level of mechanics, not only is GoOdy's apm really low, he also tends to get supply blocked, which is really unusual in pro players.
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As a Zerg player, I think the best way to deal with this type of style is the same as any - ling/bane/muta! Of course, there's more to it than that, and more differences, but that's the idea. Recently ling/infestor has been really popular in TvZ, and imo it's much worse than ling/bane/muta against any good terran with rine/tank, mech, particularly goody style, just rolls infestor based play.
Not saying infestors are useless against it, it's just they aren't good en mass, as siege tanks destroy infestors. Which is why good rine/tank will own infestor play unless the Terran is bad or only has 2 or less factories on 2 base and thinks making more marines is good idea against infestor. Anyways.
What I find works best is make lots more mutas, dump all the mid-game gas into mutas, upgrades, and not banelings. Siege tanks are the biggest problem in Goody style mech, just like in any Terran style, so you need lots of siege tanks. Get lots of air upgrades, particularly army because you cannot lose mutas.
It only takes 6 magic boxed mutas to beat a thor! Expand like crazy, get hive tech going on your third, and take a super fast fourth. Add a few infestors in your army - just a few, and rush to broodlords. Normally, rushing to BL's is almost impossible, and even if you get them out, vikings or super high thor counts ruin them. By using mutas to harass the opponent and force missile turrets, that means you can take more bases and hold off his mid-game mech army until broodlords pop.
I know a lot of zerg like roaches against this style, but I think that's really stupid. Siege tanks own roaches, thors own roaches. Nestea added a few into his army against Goody on the game he won, but he also did that in the games he lost. And he probably fared so well because he had so many lings, instead of just pure roach like many players try to do, and fail, against mech style.
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On July 15 2011 09:00 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 08:55 aFF.TEEN wrote: EmpireNerchio has played GoOdy over and over and over and has good anti mech ZvT, but it's still even games when they play. And Nerchio is definitely no pushover The last series I saw them play didn't seem even at all. Basically Nerchio countered all of GoOdy's harass attempts and got a huge lead. GoOdy commits to so much harass that he doesn't have an army until really late in the game. Just on the level of mechanics, not only is GoOdy's apm really low, he also tends to get supply blocked, which is really unusual in pro players. remind me, how does his poor execution makes his builds bad?
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On July 15 2011 08:10 MockHamill wrote: The problem is the balance between Tanks and Thors. If you go hellion and make slightly too few Thors your whole army will be wiped out by mass muta. If you instead use Marines as a complement to your Tanks and Thors you are much safer if your balance between Tanks and Thors at some point is not perfect.
Marines are just as good as wiping out mineral lines as Hellions plus they can snipe the hatcheries which is often even better then killing the drones. I see no reason to use hellions as mineral dump instead of marines, marines do ok/good vs everything but banelings while Hellions excel against speedlings but suck vs everything else. Marines complement Tank/Thor better than hellions and is a much better mineral dump in almost every case.
Sure, there are more biomech builds like the one MMA used against Losira on Shattered in MLG finals, and the biomech build Boxer used against Idra in the very last set of NASL group stages and recently in the geforce tourny against Xlord, where they open with bio harass (reaper expand or 2 rax respectively) into BF hellion into thors and tanks and medivacs (and marines the whole time).
They use the mainly Thor/Tank like mech, for position, while dropping marines all over. Pretty effective, and in many ways better than Hellions, though it is a little harder of course just because you have more kinds of units to control ^_^
(They both get double bio upgrades and mech attack)
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Really happy to see this thread - Starting to learn some mech lately, and it's great to see a thread with replays, content to discuss and not 1000 reply cheese threads :D.
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Great OP. But this is not new whatsoever.. I've even been doing this since BETA.. Glad to see some professional players doing it, I believe BoxeR used all mech ages ago in a GSL, and same with MMA.
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