[SCL Contest] The Mineral Mechanic

maybenexttime

Poland5914 Posts

December 25 2008 18:00 GMT

Here's a solution designed by FrozenArbiter and me.

Download the edited text file + pictures:

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=438043

Or read a less refined version below (WARNING: IT'S HUUUUGE):

The Mineral Mechanic by FrozenArbiter & MaybeNextTime.

Index.

The introduction:

I. DISCLAIMERS.
II. Criteria.

The proper submission:

III. Name.
IV. TL:DR.
V. Expanded Description.

Additional information:

VI. FAQ.
VII. Credits.

The introduction.

I. DISCLAIMERS:
- auto-mining stays,
- MBS stays,
- Blizzard gas mechanic's gone,
- all numbers are subject to balance.

***PICTURES INSIDE*** (Expanded Description)

II. Criteria.

The criteria our mechanic goes by (the updated version, stricter than SCLegacy contest's ones).

1) The ideal new macro mechanic should be direct in its usage and provide beneficial gameplay.

2) The ideal new macro mechanic should have direct strategical value.

3) The ideal new macro mechanic should create a wide skill gradient and allow players of different play styles to distinguish themselves.

4) The ideal new macro mechanic should give the player alternatives, both of which should have their advantages and disadvantages.

5) The ideal new macro mechanic should be dynamic in the sense that it depends on the player and his opponent's choices.

6) The ideal new macro mechanic should allow for UI features such as MBS and/or auto-mining to remain unchanged and not punish the players for using them.

7) The ideal new macro mechanic should not be mindless nor repetitive.

8) The ideal new macro mechanic should provide a viable attention sink in the macro department in order to reward good multi-tasking and micro-to-macro decision making.

(The ideal new macro mechanic should provide a viable attention/APM sink (i.e. it needs to be used frequently enough to become a relevant task) in the macro department in order to reward good multi-tasking and micro-to-macro decision making (the biggest issue with MBS and auto-mining), however, it should not discourage micro.)

9) The ideal new macro mechanic's effects should not be random - its results must have definite results.

10) The ideal new macro mechanic should not force a specific map design or play style.

11) The ideal new macro mechanic should be flexible in its ability to be balanced.

I believe the criteria proposed by SCLegacy have been inspired by my own (MaybeNextTime/OceanicDrought/Zergish) criteria, is that right?

__________________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________________

The proper submission.

III. Name.

MaybeNextTime/OceanicDrought (myself) & FrozenArbiter.

Criteria.

1) The ideal new macro mechanic should be direct in its usage and provide beneficial gameplay.

2) The ideal new macro mechanic should have direct strategical value.

3) The ideal new macro mechanic should create a wide skill gradient and allow players of different play styles to distinguish themselves.

4) The ideal new macro mechanic should give the player alternatives, both of which should have their advantages and disadvantages.

5) The ideal new macro mechanic should be dynamic in the sense that it depends on the player and his opponent's choices.

6) The ideal new macro mechanic should allow for UI features such as MBS and/or auto-mining to remain unchanged and not punish the players for using them.

7) The ideal new macro mechanic should not be mindless nor repetitive.

8) The ideal new macro mechanic should provide a viable attention sink in the macro department in order to reward good multi-tasking and micro-to-macro decision making.

(The ideal new macro mechanic should provide a viable attention/APM sink (i.e. it needs to be used frequently enough to become a relevant task) in the macro department in order to reward good multi-tasking and micro-to-macro decision making (the biggest issue with MBS and auto-mining), however, it should not discourage micro.)

9) The ideal new macro mechanic's effects should not be random - its results must have definite results.

10) The ideal new macro mechanic should not force a specific map design or play style.

11) The ideal new macro mechanic should be flexible in its ability to be balanced.

IV. TL:DR. (all numbers subject to balance)

1. Three mineral mining modes for workers:

Regular Mining Mode: you're credited with 5 minerals from 5 you've mined per each mining trip (5/5), 100% efficiency.

Strip Mining Mode: 7/10, 70% efficiency.

After a set number of mining trips Strip Mining Mode degenerates into Wasteful Strip Mining Mode as the mineral patch status turns from Strip Mining into Wasteful Strip Mining.

Wasteful Strip Mining Mode: 7/15, 47% efficiency.

2. In order to bring the mineral patch status back to Strip Mining status, you have to mine in Regular Mining Mode for a while.

3. Workers start in Regular Mining Mode by default. You have to manually switch them to Strip Mining Mode to take advantage of increased mining rate, which is often more benefiting than Regular Mining Mode.

4. The mineral patch’s current status is hinted at by graphical cues and – when the ALT key is held – a progress bar.

V. Expanded Description.

The issue at hand. (This section is mostly for Blizzard, so if you, reader, feel like you understand the issue, skip to the next section.)

Many competitive StarCraft players (including dozens of those who have already played StarCraft 2) believe that the multi-tasking demands related to the macro side of the game in the sequel have become too low after the introduction of such UI improvements as MBS, auto-mining, and shift-queue, to name a few.

These interface changes allow the player to macro remotely, resulting is potential downtimes between action (i.e. making the game less intense), the game’s focus leaning heavily towards micro in terms of attention (making it more similar to WarCraft 3, which dilutes the StarCraft feel).

They may potentially make execution matter less, leading to players close in skill becoming essentially equal. They make acquiring a rhythm not necessary for playing with utmost efficiency anymore, practice pay off less, and take a hefty portion of time/attention management (do I keep microing or should I rather macro?) out of the equation, and thus render certain playstyles not viable anymore.

What’s more, those UI changes lead to a snowball effect as regards expanding, i.e. the economically advantaged player has a great chance of outgrowing his opponent due to the fact that managing his several bases is almost equally taxing as managing but a few his opponent has now, which wasn’t the case in StarCraft 1.

On the other hand, casual players are opposed to any mundane, repetitive and mindless tasks, and manual-mining from StarCraft 1 is just that (except for deciding when to tell one’s workers to mine).

They want to be able to fully enjoy the StarCraft 2 experience, without feeling like they’re handicapped by the game’s very user interface. They want everything they do in game to have a purpose – not be a distraction.

The compromise.

StarCraft 2 is in dire need of new macro mechanic that’s compromise – a compromise which addresses the concerns of the competitive gaming crowd but at the same time does not conflict the interests of the casual gamers. If anything – this compromise should be something that casual players could willingly embrace!

The new mechanic should be intuitive and beneficial to gameplay, have direct strategic value, give players valid alternatives, judged in context of the current game, and not mindless nor repetitive. It should create a wide skill range in terms of both execution and knowledge and provide a viable attention sink to reward players for managing their time well.

In other words, it should have both mental AND physical aspects.

Why the Mineral Mechanic?

Well, the reason why I think this mechanic is the best solution is because it basically meets all the requirements 100%: three (technically just two, with varying levels of efficiency) different mining modes that need to be frequently adjusted add plenty of depth to the game both decision making- and execution-wise.

It gives the players plenty of options depending on the current state of the game, is not mindless nor repetitive. It creates a wide skill range, does not dilute the core gameplay but actually enhances it, keeps MBS and auto-mining unchanged, and at the same time provides a viable attention sink, allowing players of differing playstyle to distinguish themselves.

Not to mention it’s very easily tweaked and intuitive.

***PROPER DESCRIPTION***

What actually is the Mineral Mechanic?

The Mineral Mechanic introduces three different mineral mining modes for workers and three distinct mineral patch statuses. The two mining modes would have differing mining rates and efficiency, giving the player a choice: do I use the Regular Mining Mode and have 100% efficiency OR do I use the Strip Mining Mode, suffer from the decreased efficiency and thus run out of minerals much faster, forcing myself to expand much earlier AND risk suffering from even lower efficiency due to the mineral patch status turning into Wasteful Strip Mining with atrocious efficiency of 47% and trice as fast mining rate as Regular Mining Mode, causing me to expand three times earlier?

Here’s how the mining modes would look like (all number subject to balance; the number would be different for high yield minerals):

Regular Mining Mode: you're credited with 5 minerals from 5 you've mined per each mining trip (5/5), 100% efficiency.

Strip Mining Mode: you’re credited with 7 minerals (40% increase) from 10 you’ve mined per each mining trip (100% mining rate increase) (7/10), 70% efficiency.

After a set number of mining trips Strip Mining Mode degenerates into Wasteful Strip Mining Mode as the mineral patch status turns from Strip Mining into Wasteful Strip Mining.

Wasteful Strip Mining Mode: you’re credited with 7 minerals from 15 you’ve mined per each mining trip (trice as fast mining rate as Regular Mining) (7/15), 47% efficiency.

The default mining mode of each newly produced worker is Regular Mining Mode.

The reason for that is because Regular Mining Mode is characterized by 100% mining efficiency, as well as the fact that it rewards the players for actively managing their workers by changing the mining mode of every newly produced worker to Strip Mining Mode early game (where the latter is usually more beneficial), making this a viable physical component of the Mineral Mechanic, which can (among other physical components) satisfy the competitive gaming crowd.

In order to toggle the mining modes the player simply has to select the worker(s) and right click on the mining mode toggle button (similarly to turning on auto-cast mode for spells).

In order to issue a single mining trip in (Wasteful) Strip Mining Mode the player has to left click on the mining mode toggle button and target the destination mineral patch.

Other technicalities.

There are three different mineral patch statuses – each having a varying degree of efficiency and mining rate.

The status of the mineral patch affects only the workers mining in (Wasteful) Strip Mining Mode. When the mineral patch is in the Strip Mining status the worker in Strip Mining Mode mines at 7/10 rate and 70% efficiency. When the status is Wasteful Strip Mining, the worker is forced to mine in Wasteful Strip Mining Mode, which translates into 7/15 mining rate and only 47% efficiency.

Workers in Regular Mining Mode mine with 100% efficiency, 5/5 minerals regardless of the mineral patch status.

In game, each mineral patch status is represented by different graphical cues:

Regular Mining status – no glow (on the particular mineral patch)
Strip Mining status – green glow (on the particular mineral patch)
Wasteful Strip Mining status – red/purple-ish glow (on the particular mineral patch)

All mineral patches’ status is Regular Mining status by default (subject to map-to-map balance and map makers’ creativity).

The status of a particular mineral patch changes immediately from Regular Mining status to Strip Mining status when a worker starts mining from that patch in Strip Mining Mode. The Progress goes up by one notch (explained below) then.

The Progress (Bar) represents the number of mining trips in (Wasteful) Strip Mining Mode on a particular (e.g. selected) mineral patch.

After each mining trip in Strip Mining Mode the Progress (Bar) goes up by one notch. When the Progress reaches 15/15 point (subject to balance) the mineral patch’s status changes from Strip Mining status to Wasteful Strip Mining status.

In other words, it takes 15 mining trips in Strip Mining Mode for the mineral patch status to change from Strip Mining status to Wasteful Strip Mining status.

The furthest the Progress of Wasteful Strip Mining status can get is the 15/15 point (subject to balance) as well (15 mining trips in Wasteful Strip Mining Mode).

Naturally, the more saturated your mineral line is the faster the mineral patches are going to go into Wasteful Strip Mining status, which means that sometimes keeping up with worker management in (Wasteful) Strip Mining Mode might be too demanding to be beneficial (so switching back to Regular Mining Mode might be a reasonable solution): this adds a new skill gradient which rewards players good at multi-tasking, and at the same time gives strategical choices to the player regardless of skill level.

Ideally, the number of mining trips required for the mineral patch’s status to change from Strip Mining status to Wasteful Strip Mining status in a saturated mineral line (mid/late game) should be roughly equal to the amount of time it takes to produce a new worker. (Consequently, it’d take more time for the status to change in early game.)

That way, adjusting mining modes would be more or less synched with producing new workers, preventing things from getting too messy (for mid/late game scenarios; in early game adjusting the mining modes would be less frequent).

Analogically, for the Progress to go down by one notch the mineral patch would have to be mined in Regular Mining Mode (i.e. one mining trip equals to one notch down) or not mined from at all for X amount of time (to be determined).

Additionally, the player can access extra graphical cues, namely the purple Progress Bars and the red triangles, indicating workers mining in (Wasteful) Strip Mining Mode simply by pressing the ‘ALT’ key.

The Mental.
How exactly does one use it?

Generally, you’d want to stay in Strip Mining Mode for as long as possible, without going into Wasteful Strip Mining Mode. However, things are not as easy as they may seem - you need to consider a multitude of factors when deciding which mining mode to choose for particular resource node, such as:

- mineral line saturation
- the amount of minerals remaining
- your build order/opening/strategy etc.
- your and your opponent’s economy
- whether you’ll be able manage to avoid going into Wasteful Strip Mining Mode (you might be busy defending or harassing, etc.)
- whether the expansion is safe (or maybe you’re trying to capitalize on a hidden expansion?)

Additionally, you’d have to decide how frequently you’d want to go back to your base (you could adjust the mining modes with every new worker produced or even as rarely as every five workers) and plan ahead you macro cycles, depending on what you focus on in your playstyle and the current state of the game.

“If thing’s are supposedly not as easy, then are there any instances where I’d want to mine in one mining mode for an extended period of time?”, you might ask.

Well, of course, there are. Here are two short lists of the most evident cases:

The reasons why you’d want to mine in Regular Mining Mode for longer:

1) Your mineral line is saturated and you're wasting too much resources (especially if minerals are running dry in that particular expansion) by mining is Strip Mining Mode.

2) You're gathering minerals faster than you can spend them because:

a) You're low on popcap because your opponent killed your Depots/Pylons/Overlords or you were sloppy building additional ones.

b) You're low on production structures because of enemy's destroying them or your timing mistake.

And another list, this time showing why mining in Strip Mining Mode for an extended period of time might be necessary despite eventually going into Wasteful Strip Mining Mode:

- you've been harassed and you need to recover in terms of worker count

- you've discovered that your opponent has been mining from a hidden expansion and you want to get even economically

- you're trying to capitalize on an economic/army advantage

- you're preparing a Warp-in drop

- you're trying to capitalize on a hidden expansion

- you're trying to maximize the income from an expansion you know you're going to lose

- you're cheesing with half your workers and the other half are constantly mining in mode 2

- you're trying to churn out as many reinforcements (mineral only units like Marines or Lings) to help your push or whatever

Clearly, there are numerous such examples. By mining constantly in Strip Mining Mode the player tries to seize the initiative, but he's not guaranteed that he does so – if he fails he’s behind… It’s all about taking calculated risks.

The Physical.
How is this mechanic a viable attention sink?

Aside from the mental aspect, the Mineral Mechanic has an important physical aspect – something really important for the competitive players.

Namely, it provides a viable attention sink by rewarding the player for frequently paying attention to his base(s), changing screens, multi-tasking!

The reason for that is the fact that the Strip Mining Mode toggle is on individual workers as opposed to the main building, making the player unable to adjust the mining modes remotely (unless he doesn’t produce any new workers anymore).

Additionally, the players has to adjust the mining mode of each new worker, which in early game equals to setting every newly produced worker to Strip Mining Mode.

However, considering the various examples from the section above, one can clearly notice that this is far from a mindless task.

Miscellaneous.

Some other things true for the Mineral Mechanic worth mentioning:

- it promotes active scouting (you don’t wanna get caught off guard by the opponent’s strip mining his hidden expansion!)
- it preserves the micro and macro oriented playstyles
- it feels like a natural enhancement to gameplay and not a tacked on feature
- as opposed to manual-mining, it works throughout the whole game as long as you have any workers mining
- it’s cyclical, which makes it predictable, further enhancing its “planning ahead” aspect

And last but not least, it’s very similar to micro in certain areas:

1) Using the Mineral Mechanic is (almost) always more benefiting to the player than simply relying on auto-mine and mode 1, regardless of how efficient you are at that - just as microing your units is (almost) always more beneficial in some way than just relying on their default behavior (i.e. AI).

2) The player has a choice of either using the Mineral Mechanic (with varying degree of involvement) or not using it at all - same with microing one's units.

3) The players has a wide spectrum of choices within the Mineral Mechanic itself and not just whether you want to use it or not - same for micro.

4) A lesser player is not punished for trying to use the mechanic even considering his (below) average execution, he's just less efficient (e.g. you may unnecessarily lose some resources due to switching back to mode 1 too late, but you've still gained that gathering rate boost), which is, again, similar to micro - you can e.g. escape from spider mines - some might kill some of your goons but it's still beneficial if you do that; (unless, of course, you make some huge blunder while attempting to use this mechanic, which is, again, true for micro as well: using mode 2/stage 2 when your minerals are running dry and you're on negative popcap VS running a group of stimmed marines into lurkers).

5) The said Mineral Mechanic allows for INDIRECTLY competing with the other player, which can be compared to two players microing against each other - each in a different battle, which is an example of indirect competition as well.

***PROPER DESCRIPTION***
__________________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________________

Additional information.

VI. FAQ.

1. Is switching between different mining modes just a mindless tasks you have to do to gain an advantage?

By all means: no!

There are instances where you want your workers to mine in either mode for an extended period of time. You need to analyze this on case by case basis (i.e. each resource node individually), taking into consideration such factors as: the amount of minerals remaining, your BO/opening/strategy, the state of your and your opponent's economy, whether he'll harass you soon and whether you'll manage to prevent your workers from mining at decreased efficiency, the general state of the game, etc.

Additionally, you have to decide how frequently you want to adjust your mining modes (i.e. how often you want to go back to base), depending on what you focus on in game: micro or macro.

2. If all mineral patches have individual cooldowns won’t things become too messy?

Yes, a bit. But it's necessary to give the player flexibility in terms of deciding how many workers he wants to mine in the alternative mode.

To offset that the player would simply have to switch modes globally (i.e. for all workers in a particular mineral line).

3. Doesn't this mechanic add an excessive amount of macro/macro related multi-tasking?

No, not at all. Using this mechanic efficiently takes roughly as much effort as being efficient at manual-mining in StarCraft 1, but it gives the player a lot of flexibility as far as deciding how much time he wants to spend macroing, and allows him to rely on auto-mining when he cannot afford to go back to base to adjust the mining modes.

Imagine BW's macro: SBS, manual-mining. Now imagine that type of macro but with MBS instead of SBS - that's basically how intense it's going to be, with mineral mechanic replacing manual-mining, making managing workers a thoughtful process instead of a mindless task – as opposed to manual-mining, the Mineral Mechanic adds plenty of depth to the game.

4. How is this type of macro task different from manual-mining from StarCraft 1?

It makes worker management not a tedious task but a thoughtful process. It gives the player a lot of freedom as far as deciding how much time he wants to spend macroing goes.

It allows him to rely on auto-mining, but rewards him for paying attention to macro. On the other hand, BW punishes the player with idle workers.

Additionally, the Mineral Mechanic remains fully relevant throughout the whole game as long as the player has any workers mining, as opposed to manual-mining, which becomes obsolete when the player reaches saturation point.

5. Why is reward better than punishment?

Reward gives the player an incentive to improve whereas punishment makes the beginners put off by the gameplay experience by making players believe they’re not fully capable of playing the game and thus enjoying it.

6. Isn't this mechanic breaking the KISS rule (keep it simple, stupid)?

No, not at all:

On the fundamental level, learning the Mineral Mechanic comes down to knowing that in strip mining mode workers mine faster but with decreased efficiency and after some time the efficiency drops even further, so it's advisable to switch between the two modes every now and then.

It's all the newbies have to know to play the game.

It's like the damage/armor types and counters in SC - you don't need to know the damage output, attack range, rate of fire, movement speed, etc. to know that Goons with range upgrade completely decimate Marines.

It's the same with the Mineral Mechanic - you don't need to know any stats to play the game and enjoy it, AND you can actually use the convenient UI features like rally-mining without being punished for it.

7. Why is this mechanic universal for all races?

Racially different mechanics in this case could seem too tacked on and artificial. They'd be also really hard to balance (notice the fact that they'd work differently in different match-ups: Terran mechanic vs. Zerg mechanic, Protoss mechanic vs. Protoss mechanic, and not to mention team games) unless the differences were just superficial (like different skins on identical units, sort of).

The new mechanic solving that specific issue would be better of being universal. It doesn’t mean, however, that the Mineral Mechanic can’t be balanced differently for different races. It’s all up to balance.

Any racial differences in the macro department could be implemented independently (Warp-in and Mutant Larvas being the prime examples here).

VII. Credits.

I'm the author of the gas mechanic FrozenArbiter based his mineral mechanic off. The former was loosely based off the high yield minerals introduced by Blizzard, whilst the latter has been further developed by me and FrozenArbiter. The idea of basing the mechanic on mineral mining management instead of gas mining management has been FrozenArbiter's idea, whereas the idea of decreased efficiency and cooldown per mineral patch is mine.

The document prepared by me (MaybeNextTime).

Liquid`Jinro

Sweden33723 Posts

December 25 2008 18:06 GMT

As you can probably tell, the vast, VAST majority of the credit belogns to Maybenexttime ;P He did all the hard work.

LonelyMargarita

1845 Posts

December 25 2008 18:55 GMT

Just going to critique in from what I scanned, I'll read and think about it in more depth later. I see you put a lot of time into it, but I'm going to be honest.

So basically now instead of coming back to send every worker to mine, you come back every 3-4 workers, select them all (unlimited selection), and set all your probes to strip mining (since 3-4 of them will be new and on regular mode).

In broodwar, if you came back every 4 workers to send them to mine, you'd have missed about 12 trips (0+2+4+6) for maybe about 50 minerals total (because of saturation). With this if you come back every 4 workers to set new ones to strip-mine, you miss the increased 2 mins from those 12 trips (since automine still causes them to collect 5), factoring in saturation, and it's about 12 minerals. So the reward for coming back is about 25% what it was in broodwar. This means you only have to come back every 4 workers for the same reward as coming back every other worker would be in broodwar (because of the cumulative factor and the 25% ratio). So it's less of an advantage for good multi-taskers than having no auto-mine was in broodwar.

I put it this way because I don't see it as a choice. In the professional scene, whatever mode is strategically advantageous will be used 99% of the time. I'd imagine it'd be strip-mining, since all that really matters is who collects more minerals faster. In the 1 in 100 games that both players are down to the last few patches on the map and we've got queens and DAs, I can see them switching to regular. But for every game up until the 45 minute point, I can't see any pro sitting there choosing to get a slower return on minerals, when in the pro scene 1 or 2 more units a few seconds sooner can mean the game. Those extra units at the very least allow you to take expos sooner, which completely negates any worry about running out of mins. I cannot think of scenerios where you would want to mine more slowly besides very late game. What matters in starcraft is the ratio of your income to your opponents income, and if you cannot gain an advantage with the current ratio, you will just get farther and farther behind by choosing to make the ratio worse (you're delaying the inevitable loss by staying in the game). Pros will not say "hey, I'll use regular mining and go for the 40 minute win since he'll run out of mins faster." Even a hugely turtling macro build doesn't plan on going long enough to even consider running out of minerals, and eventually once everyone uses strip mining for a season, maps will be adjusted in total mineral count to balance it. In my opinion, everything from an 8 bbs rush or 5 pool to a turtle to 200 2-2 tvp build (and everything in between) would be better off using strip mining for every worker.

With the assumption that it is in fact not a choice, and that it is pretty much universally better to either do it every time or never do it, it fails to meet the criteria. Once it's not a decision, there's no point to the mechanic, and with it being only 25% as rewarding as just removing auto-mine, removing auto-mine seems more logical for a non-strategic mechanic.

I know the games are not directly comparable, but since broodwar is all we know, if you can provide specific strategies where you would choose regular mining in broodwar, that could debunk my arguments. I cannot think of any, which is why I would not agree with putting in this mechanic.

InRaged

1047 Posts

December 25 2008 19:06 GMT

Nice post :3

I didn't see one thing addressed:

What if some match ups turns out to be gas-limited (like TvT or PvZ) — That is, minerals are in excess and the resource you need the most is the gas?

What if one side of the match up is gas-limited and other mineral-limited — i.e one player is supposed to macro his workers to the minerals and for other it's meaningless?

I don't agree that balancing this mechanics is easier than Racially different ones. Balancing this mechanics will require work on all 6 match-ups at the same time and for each side. Balancing racially individual mechanics like Warp-in on other hand will only require to ensure that it powerful enough and therefore always useful no matter what match-up you play.

On December 26 2008 03:55 LonelyMargarita wrote:
With the assumption that it is in fact not a choice, and that it is pretty much universally better to either do it every time or never do it, it fails to meet the criteria. Once it's not a decision, there's no point to the mechanic, and with it being only 25% as rewarding as just removing auto-mine, removing auto-mine seems more logical for a non-strategic mechanic.

With this I somewhat agree too. I, personally, don't like resource mechanics because the only choice they may have - either use it or not - could pretty well end up to be not the choice at all.
With racial specific mechanics the decision-making is about How you use it, not whether you use it, and that's what makes them more appealing in my eyes.

empathe

United States63 Posts

December 25 2008 19:21 GMT

I scanned it, but what's to stop players from just grouping workers in a hotkey group and setting this toggle from the middle of battle?

KwarK

United States44450 Posts

December 25 2008 19:21 GMT

I like this. Really like this. This opens so many windows of strategic opportunity it's ridiculous.

Liquid`Jinro

Sweden33723 Posts

December 25 2008 19:28 GMT

On December 26 2008 04:21 empathe wrote:
I scanned it, but what's to stop players from just grouping workers in a hotkey group and setting this toggle from the middle of battle?

Because you can't key new workers without physically going to your base?

empathe

United States63 Posts

December 25 2008 19:46 GMT

On December 26 2008 04:28 FrozenArbiter wrote:

Show nested quote +

Because you can't key new workers without physically going to your base?

Yeah, but even then, with unlimited unit selection, you can just hit your hotkey twice, Ctrl+click a single worker, re-hotkey, and move on.

Maybe 2 seconds for a good player.

Liquid`Jinro

Sweden33723 Posts

December 25 2008 19:49 GMT

..... Which is about the same as how it is right now in SC with no automining? (and ignoring all the strategical concerns of the mechanic)

And if you are going to hotkey each of your expansion nexii separately then you can't take advantage of MBS.

wrags

United States379 Posts

December 25 2008 19:57 GMT

#10

Maybe I missed it, but I assume opposing players would be able to see which mode your workers are in by holding alt?

Just to clarify

EmeraldSparks

United States1451 Posts

December 25 2008 21:17 GMT

#11

So, I envision this:

Mineral patch has 15 HP
A regular mine gains it some HP
A strip mine loses it 1 HP

Then players can play in two kinds of ways for optimal gather:

Alternating between strip mine and regular mine.
Putting in a certain ratio of strip-mine to regular-mine workers to keep them all in the green.

Is this correct?

Tritanis

Poland344 Posts

December 25 2008 21:32 GMT

#12

Definitely a step in the right direction, this idea creates a whole new strategical aspect of the game and with some little tweaks and simplifications could be great.

In my opinion, in order to make this mechanic balanced for all races, it shouldn't be mineral only, gas should be affected too.

To make it a little bit simplier I'd get rid of minerals (and gas ;d) statuses, it unnecessarly complicates this mechanic as for me; you could just add another indicator ( like that red triangle) icon when worker starts to mine in third, most wasteful mode.

maybenexttime

Poland5914 Posts

December 25 2008 22:05 GMT

#13

On December 26 2008 03:55 LonelyMargarita wrote:
Just going to critique in from what I scanned, I'll read and think about it in more depth later. I see you put a lot of time into it, but I'm going to be honest.

So basically now instead of coming back to send every worker to mine, you come back every 3-4 workers, select them all (unlimited selection), and set all your probes to strip mining (since 3-4 of them will be new and on regular mode).

In broodwar, if you came back every 4 workers to send them to mine, you'd have missed about 12 trips (0+2+4+6) for maybe about 50 minerals total (because of saturation). With this if you come back every 4 workers to set new ones to strip-mine, you miss the increased 2 mins from those 12 trips (since automine still causes them to collect 5), factoring in saturation, and it's about 12 minerals. So the reward for coming back is about 25% what it was in broodwar. This means you only have to come back every 4 workers for the same reward as coming back every other worker would be in broodwar (because of the cumulative factor and the 25% ratio). So it's less of an advantage for good multi-taskers than having no auto-mine was in broodwar.

I put it this way because I don't see it as a choice. In the professional scene, whatever mode is strategically advantageous will be used 99% of the time. I'd imagine it'd be strip-mining, since all that really matters is who collects more minerals faster. In the 1 in 100 games that both players are down to the last few patches on the map and we've got queens and DAs, I can see them switching to regular. But for every game up until the 45 minute point, I can't see any pro sitting there choosing to get a slower return on minerals, when in the pro scene 1 or 2 more units a few seconds sooner can mean the game. Those extra units at the very least allow you to take expos sooner, which completely negates any worry about running out of mins. I cannot think of scenerios where you would want to mine more slowly besides very late game. What matters in starcraft is the ratio of your income to your opponents income, and if you cannot gain an advantage with the current ratio, you will just get farther and farther behind by choosing to make the ratio worse (you're delaying the inevitable loss by staying in the game). Pros will not say "hey, I'll use regular mining and go for the 40 minute win since he'll run out of mins faster." Even a hugely turtling macro build doesn't plan on going long enough to even consider running out of minerals, and eventually once everyone uses strip mining for a season, maps will be adjusted in total mineral count to balance it. In my opinion, everything from an 8 bbs rush or 5 pool to a turtle to 200 2-2 tvp build (and everything in between) would be better off using strip mining for every worker.

With the assumption that it is in fact not a choice, and that it is pretty much universally better to either do it every time or never do it, it fails to meet the criteria. Once it's not a decision, there's no point to the mechanic, and with it being only 25% as rewarding as just removing auto-mine, removing auto-mine seems more logical for a non-strategic mechanic.

I know the games are not directly comparable, but since broodwar is all we know, if you can provide specific strategies where you would choose regular mining in broodwar, that could debunk my arguments. I cannot think of any, which is why I would not agree with putting in this mechanic.

I think you're concerns are too detailed. I can't answer your questions with pure theorycrafting at my disposal.

In my honest opinion, it's all a matter of balancing the mining rate increase of Strip Mining vs. the efficiency decrease of both Strp and Wasteful Strip Mining, as well as the number of mining trips required to go into Wasteful Strip Mining.

I also think that BW examples would be too farfetched.

I have, however, given plenty of theoretical examples of using either mining mode for an extended period of time.

On December 26 2008 04:06 InRaged wrote:
Nice post :3

I didn't see one thing addressed:

What if some match ups turns out to be gas-limited (like TvT or PvZ) — That is, minerals are in excess and the resource you need the most is the gas?

What if one side of the match up is gas-limited and other mineral-limited — i.e one player is supposed to macro his workers to the minerals and for other it's meaningless?

I don't agree that balancing this mechanics is easier than Racially different ones. Balancing this mechanics will require work on all 6 match-ups at the same time and for each side. Balancing racially individual mechanics like Warp-in on other hand will only require to ensure that it powerful enough and therefore always useful no matter what match-up you play.

Show nested quote +

Again, this is all purely theoretical, but I think that balancing racially different mechanics may easily lead to coming up with "EMP nearly useless vs. Terran or Zerg" kind of thing.

Ultimately, I think it'd just lead to there beaing a different approach to the mechanic in each match-up. Kinda like Zerg relies on low Drone count, mass expansions in BW - a different approach to the same gathering techniques.

On December 26 2008 04:21 Kwark wrote:
I like this. Really like this. This opens so many windows of strategic opportunity it's ridiculous.

I'm really glad you like it.

On December 26 2008 04:57 wrags wrote:
Maybe I missed it, but I assume opposing players would be able to see which mode your workers are in by holding alt?

Just to clarify

I assume that yes, it'd be possible.

That's give even more incentive to scouting as well as additional tools to fool your opponent.

It's all subject to balance, though. As always.

On December 26 2008 06:17 EmeraldSparks wrote:
So, I envision this:

Mineral patch has 15 HP
A regular mine gains it some HP
A strip mine loses it 1 HP

Then players can play in two kinds of ways for optimal gather:

Alternating between strip mine and regular mine.
Putting in a certain ratio of strip-mine to regular-mine workers to keep them all in the green.

Is this correct?

If by HP you mean Progress, then basically yes ("15" is subject to balance, it's just an arbitrary figure).

There would be extra HP for Wasteful Strip Mining:

Basically, if the mineral patch is at 15/15 HP Strip Mining, it gets to 1/15 HP Wasteful Strip Mining with the next mining trip in Strip Mining Mode (which is now Wasteful Strip Mining Mode).

Although, I don't think there would be two kinds of optimal gathering techniques:

Balancing strip mining with regular mining would require an OVERstaturated mineral line, sicne you'd essentially need 2 (or even more, depending on what ratio would be considered balanced) workers per mineral patch, since less than 2 would lead to workers changing their mineral patches (like they do in SC1 and - from what I gather - in SC2).

However, there would be various reasons to stay in one mining mode for an extended period of time, which I described in the OP.

On December 26 2008 06:32 Tritanis wrote:
Definitely a step in the right direction, this idea creates a whole new strategical aspect of the game and with some little tweaks and simplifications could be great.

In my opinion, in order to make this mechanic balanced for all races, it shouldn't be mineral only, gas should be affected too.

To make it a little bit simplier I'd get rid of minerals (and gas ;d) statuses, it unnecessarly complicates this mechanic as for me; you could just add another indicator ( like that red triangle) icon when worker starts to mine in third, most wasteful mode.

Well, first of all, we just need to give Blizzard strong fundamentals to work with.

Secondly, the Mineral Mechanic was oroginally a gas mechanic, then both gas & minerals, but we decided it'd complicate things too much, and that different gas would allow for potentially abusive forms of fast tech, effectively leading to a bastardized use of the whole mechanic, hence the decision to leave gas out. However, Blizzard may always experiment with either resource - it's just that we can't do more with simple theorycrafting.

As for making it balanced for all races, I think Blizzard could balance all the numbers differently for each race. It's hard to tell without extensive playtesting, though.

And last but not least, what you're suggesting about statuses is essentially the same thing I posted. The difference is how each one of us would like the visual cues to be implemented - for you it's a different kind of triangle, whlist for me and FA - different colours of glow and different status displayed when the mineral patch is selected. I honestly find the difference minute.

After all, it's all up to Blizzard and what they find is the most convenient to the players.

On the other hand, what we call Wasteful Strip Mining should definitely stay to make the players actively manage their workers ("The Physical").

Here's the gas mechanic I was talking about:

+ Show Spoiler +

II. The gas mechanic:

Each geyser starts at 50% (subject to balance) of its maximal capacity. There are three mining modes. You can reach its full capacity by using mode III. If the geyser gets depleted before it reaches its full capacity it's depeleted (say you depleted it in mode I, it started with 50%, which is 2500 - you won't get the other 2500 back).

The Refinery (or Assimilator/Extractor) modes:

Mode I - the standard mode (all Refineries start with that mode on) - up to 3 workers can mine; each worker mines 5 gas units per turn.

Mode II (requires the player to switch to this mode) - allows up to 5 workers to mine (workers spend less time in the Refinery); each worker mines 7 (subject to balance) gas units per turn but the player only gains 5 (it depletes the geyser by 2 units more than you are credited with); useful for fast tech or hanbang strategies, etc.

Mode III (requires the player to switch to this mode) - does not allow any workers to mine; the Refinery reaches its full capacity over time (let's say it starts with 2500 gas and reaches 5000 mark over a minute or whatever).

DISCLAIMER: If the Refinery depletes before it's reached its full capacity, there's no going back (e.g. you've mined those 2500 gas units and never switched to mode III - you're not going to be able to mine those "remaining" 2500 gas units).

This way there'd be plenty more openings. You'd have to manage you gas timing/mode switching (including even 3rd or 4th gas expansions, not just mains.naturals) well in order to get the most out of your strategy/build order.

Additional info:

- as oposed to the Blizzard gas mechanic does not require each and every map to have two geysers in every main/natural - it allows for far more map designs than BW's resource system, imo

- some geysers could start at 0 initial gas count (forcing you to set them to mode III immediately after you take them) to make you plan your economic growth and take them ahead of time

- mode III allows for power-teching

edit:

But anyway, how do you like my precious pictures?

Tritanis

Poland344 Posts

December 25 2008 22:29 GMT

#14

On December 26 2008 07:05 maybenexttime wrote:
But anyway, how do you like my precious pictures?

<3 that red triangle :D

On December 26 2008 07:05 maybenexttime wrote:
Secondly, the Mineral Mechanic was oroginally a gas mechanic, then both gas & minerals, but we decided it'd complicate things too much, and that different gas would allow for potentially abusive forms of fast tech

So if that's the case why not make this mechanic an early-mid game upgrade?

maybenexttime

Poland5914 Posts

December 25 2008 22:44 GMT

#15

Well, as I said, we're just giving Blizzard strong fundamentals to work with.

I'm not saying gas equivalent is not possible. Just didn't want to make things too complicated, having to explain all the ins and outs of having a gas equivalent, as the document is already TEN pages long.

genwar

Canada537 Posts

December 25 2008 22:57 GMT

#16

I really like this idea because it does make it similar to BW like you said with basically adding MBS to BW.

Also this mechanic is pretty easy to understand for the casuals.

You mine more minerals in strip mining but stay in it to long you will be punished.

MiniRoman

Canada3953 Posts

December 25 2008 23:19 GMT

#17

Just seems like the game would evolve around strip mining and then shitty newb players who MUST have their cake and eat it too would be too disadvantaged by actually having to pay attention to every miner unit that was made creating reason to bitch which is what Blizzard were trying to avoid in the first place by implementing MBS and automining??

beefhamburger

United States3962 Posts

December 25 2008 23:45 GMT

#18

Maybe someone can explain this to me, because I think I'm missing something.

Okay so mineral patches have different statuses (reg, strip, and wasteful), and so do the miners? You state that the miners come out in regular mode. This would mean that they could be switched to strip mining mode (which you stated in the OP). So if they are switched to strip mining mode and then mine from a stip mining mineral, their efficiency is decreased even more? What if a strip mining probe mines from a wasteful mineral patch (what color would the minerals be then)? Basically, are there different modes for miners (reg and strip) and then three more independent mineral statuses?

maybenexttime

Poland5914 Posts

December 25 2008 23:52 GMT

#19

On December 26 2008 08:19 MiniRoman wrote:
Just seems like the game would evolve around strip mining and then shitty newb players who MUST have their cake and eat it too would be too disadvantaged by actually having to pay attention to every miner unit that was made creating reason to bitch which is what Blizzard were trying to avoid in the first place by implementing MBS and automining??

It's a compromise.

"Players who pay attention to their bases and are good at multi-tasking are rewarded" caters to competitive gamers.

"Players can rely on auto-mining and MBS withour being punished for doing so" caters to casual players.

The key here is being rewarded (additional strategic options thanks to different mining modes) as opposed to being punished (idle workers).

MBS and auto-mining are supposed to allow casual players to fully enjoy the game, which they can't if the UI cripples them like manual-mining and SBS do. This aspect of these UI changes remains unchanged.

What you're missing is the fact that there already is a "mechanic" that works analogically to the Mineral Mechanic in BW - it's called MICRO:

1) Using the Mineral Mechanic is (almost) always more benefiting to the player than simply relying on auto-mine and mode 1, regardless of how efficient you are at that - just as microing your units is (almost) always more beneficial in some way than just relying on their default behavior (i.e. AI).

2) The player has a choice of either using the Mineral Mechanic (with varying degree of involvement) or not using it at all - same with microing one's units.

3) The players has a wide spectrum of choices within the Mineral Mechanic itself and not just whether you want to use it or not - same for micro.

4) A lesser player is not punished for trying to use the mechanic even considering his (below) average execution, he's just less efficient (e.g. you may unnecessarily lose some resources due to switching back to mode 1 too late, but you've still gained that gathering rate boost), which is, again, similar to micro - you can e.g. escape from spider mines - some might kill some of your goons but it's still beneficial if you do that; (unless, of course, you make some huge blunder while attempting to use this mechanic, which is, again, true for micro as well: using mode 2/stage 2 when your minerals are running dry and you're on negative popcap VS running a group of stimmed marines into lurkers).

5) The said Mineral Mechanic allows for INDIRECTLY competing with the other player, which can be compared to two players microing against each other - each in a different battle, which is an example of indirect competition as well.

And for some reason (the vast majority of) casual players are not whining about micro being forced upon them.

Do you agree?

maybenexttime

Poland5914 Posts

December 26 2008 00:22 GMT

#20

On December 26 2008 08:45 beefhamburger wrote:
Maybe someone can explain this to me, because I think I'm missing something.

Okay so mineral patches have different statuses (reg, strip, and wasteful), and so do the miners? You state that the miners come out in regular mode. This would mean that they could be switched to strip mining mode (which you stated in the OP). So if they are switched to strip mining mode and then mine from a stip mining mineral, their efficiency is decreased even more? What if a strip mining probe mines from a wasteful mineral patch (what color would the minerals be then)? Basically, are there different modes for miners (reg and strip) and then three more independent mineral statuses?

No, actually you're reading it wrong.

There are two mining modes you can toggle between and three mineral patch statuses - the third mining mode is coerced by the wastful strip mining status, so:

Makes sense now?

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