EPTI wish I had time to play. I'm giving you an ad-bump just out of respect for how cool this setup is.
Boardwalk Empire Mafia: Pick Your Power
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yamato77
11589 Posts
I wish I had time to play. I'm giving you an ad-bump just out of respect for how cool this setup is. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
No more smurfing. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
If there's any plan I want to espouse to town is - pick the informative roles. Mafia have zero purpose for them, as they generally know the alignments of nearly every player in the game. While knowing the ROLE of a player is nice, most of the information roles deal with alignment, which mafia rarely has any use for. Contest KP roles as early picks. If you are town, it is imperative that we take KP roles before mafia get them. There are enough good town players in this game that we should be able to win as long as some of us live, which means denying mafia the power to kill us off easily. Defensive roles are in the same vein; if you are good at getting town reads but bad at identifying mafia, you should opt for them over the KP roles. If a town player with an early pick wants to deny a strong mafia-favored role, I think it's fine. While this opens up a can of worms as to whether they are actually town or not if they get rolecop'd, the main thing a town player should adhere to when picking this kind of role is to CLAIM THAT YOU HAVE IT. Mafia's advantage with this role is keeping it secret for a while and then using it as a surprise to town. If you are town and feel like you want to deny mafia this role, you HAVE TO claim it, because not doing so and getting found out should be a policy-lynch, because town cannot have you alive at lylo, for the risk. As a general strategy, though, town should be aiming at INFO/KP/DEFENSIVE roles. Mafia will be aiming at the CYCLE/VOTE RIGGING/MANIPULATING roles. The only overlap (assuming town and mafia don't try to deny each other's roles) would be in the KP section, which most of the early picks from town SHOULD go to. I would rather town have a lot of vig's and such than mafia having them, and allowing them vote-rigger roles and such is less of a detriment, as long as town is able to play smart throughout. As for late-picks as town, try to pick a role you know mafia probably wouldn't even try to contest. It's more important for us, as town, to get a lot of people with pro-town roles than it is for us to try to get "powerful" roles that could have already been taken. Mafia also NEED a role more than town, so it's not so bad if you end up vanilla, as your ability to scumhunt is still the most powerful thing in the game. You will need it regardless, as most roles as town RELY on your ability to identify good targets for your role. ON THAT NOTE: Pick a role that you can use at your skill level! Be real with yourself. Some of these roles could be EXTREMELY bad for town if used improperly, even if used by a town player. I know we all have huge egos, but if you have ANY doubts about your ability to use your role to its MAXIMUM pro-town effect, please do not pick it. There are plenty of roles that are easy to use that won't fuck over town. Think wisely. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
It does depend somewhat on picking order, and people's compliance with this plan, however. We don't know ho effective it could be, our townreads might be at the bottom of the list where it is too late to make a REAL difference, and the top of the list is all lurkers/null reads. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote: No, I do not believe that is the intent at all. Context: (1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet) (2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not. I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order. If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap. This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum); and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla. My 2c: I am going to submit my 2 numbers. Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for. I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role. As an aside Im not sure how big a deal the janitor flip is. The difference between here and personality 2 is that we know the role exists, and is of finite duration (48 hrs). Yes, there is potential to follow false leads from a "false" flip, however, one thing I noted about Personality2 was that many of the believers of Corazon innocence, were very shocked post-janitor flip. I think a townie should be able to prove innocence via more means than just a green flip. The thing is, mocsta, it is far more important for town to deny certain roles to mafia than it is for town to have a role period. Through the public draft order, town can virtually deny mafia a role by assigning the role to a strong townread that is close to the front of the pack. If that player is town, he either gets the role OR town knows the possible people that COULD have gotten the role. Either way, it hurts mafia. I like this plan the more I think about it, actually. Ir simply relies on townies playing very town, which is easy enough in today's TL. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 13:05 Sharrant wrote: If everyone agrees not to pick America, when they reveal themselves to use their nuke we will know they're mafia. Unless I'm mistaken about how nukes work, then there is a greater benefit to town by not picking the role in my opinion. I strongly believe assigning those roles is a requirement to win this game. There are 3 roles that can copy or misdirect powers, one is thief and it's already in my list of powers we need to deny. Another is role swapper, and that's not nearly as powerful, and it is entirely possible that it would just act as an extended role block if we can determine who the role swapper is right away. Framer is concerning because it can direct actions, but at worst it means that they get one of the denied roles for as long as the framer can stay alive and untouched by town actions. The "sheer number" of roles that can steal copy or redirect is exactly 3. 1 of which I say we should deny, another very weak, only one is a credible threat to town in my plan supposing they pick it. This brings up my only real problem with the idea, which is that there are a LOT of roles town kinda wants to deny. HOWEVER, there are some which are either too hard to use effectively as town, or flat out mafia favored, which town SHOULD deny. We can easily identify 1-3 of those and deny mafia all of them. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 13:10 Mocsta wrote: What malarkey are you spewing forth Yamato? The draft is in 24hrs. You are going to have 1 or 2 decent town reads, when the current game is all "foreplay" for roles? I didnt mind your first post; it had some sentiments similar to my post. But this post just now; I can not endorse. Everygame, people say: mafia high activity will expose them at the end. Well I say: that could be too late, especially for a "town read" with 3 nukes because we thought they were town during the pre-draft. If you can muster a large enough group to support this concept; best of luck to you. Know that I will not be participating. Full stop. Yes, I can be reasonably certain that I will have 1-2 town reads that I am confident in within 24 hours. I am also certain that there will be enough people that agree with me that we can deny mafia the role by using them. If you aren't I'm sorry for you. It's not even about activity necessarily, as scum can be ACTIVE, but easy to catch. the function of general activity of scum is to BLEND IN, because under the scrutiny this would require, most mafia would simply not hold up. ALL OF TOWN would be looking at you and deciding on your alignment, which is a good thing. Mafia would be hard-pressed to garner enough real support, and if they did, I would be SHOCKED. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
Sharrant, what do you think about what I've posted so far? Do you agree or disagree with how I see the game? I'd rather us talk between ourselves than argue with Mocsta. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 13:15 Mocsta wrote: I just came out of "The Game" so you will have to excuse me if we differ with opinion on this matter. For me personally regardless of player list Early Game: I put the trust in myself to either blend in as scum; or stand out as a contributor as town. Regardless, I am not relying on "town" to act "town". As I said before, if you want to follow this path. Fine. But right now, I have no means to knowing what you or sharrant or any other plan pushers alignment is. And hence, as I said before, I choose not to participate. Why? The stuff you are speaking of, is essentially common sense pro-town stuff that could be endorsed by town or scum. I am not going to comment further on this. Best of luck with what ever path you intend to choose pre-draft. One last thing, because while you are being unnecessarily negative, I do not want you to simply dismiss this idea because you don't think town can act town. My alignment does not influence my plan, necessarily. You admit that it is "pro-town", which is correct. That's all that matters. I am not espousing the idea that I be chosen, necessarily, I am simply trying to formulate a way to use the setup to town's advantage, which I believe to have done. While it may only be a LIMITED advantage, admittedly, any advantage is better than none. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 13:19 Shelvocke wrote: Lettuce ask a very simple question here. How does one assign a role to a player who could conceivably pick at any spot? On April 04 2013 13:17 Keirathi wrote: Serious question for you, yamato: What if the 1-2 people you have "solid town reads" on by tomorrow when the picking phase starts are #22 and #23 in the draft order? Same question, I presume. We pick tomorrow, which gives us 24 hours to FORMULATE the town reads. We then look at the draft order, and see if we have good town reads on the first 4-5 people in the draft order. Outside of that, we can't control it very much, but if we CAN deny mafia roles through this method, WE SHOULD. if we can't, oh well, but we've at least attempted to gain an advantage. The plan doesn't hurt town if it doesn't work for some reason, it can only help if it does. On April 04 2013 13:17 Mocsta wrote: There are plenty of people in this player list that can garner support as scum; either by blending skill *OR* reputation. I simply do not agree. You were in LIX, where Marv was supertown and we all elected him. Town is good at getting town reads, and the PROCESS of arguing for who looks the most town to get these roles is essentially a mayoral election, which gives us more information out of the picking phase than simply letting people pick whatever they want. I do think scum have a CHANCE at looking town enough, but I feel that it is very slim. I also feel that if they get a role like this, they'll still be under extreme scrutiny the entire game, which is a point in TOWN'S favor. I am generally more optimistic about this process than you, Mocsta. Fortunately, my plan does not require 100% participation. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 14:01 Oatsmaster wrote: Keep in mind that everyone knows their alignments and this isnt pregame bullshit. I think that scum already have their qt so yeah.... Also I think that directed picking is HORRIBLE for town. Because its like directing blue roles. NOT GOOD. No, it's not anything like that at all. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
What do you think about my plan, in specific? For consolidation, my plan is to assign TOWN-LOOKING players that are early in the draft order roles that mafia would want, so that we can deny mafia these roles, such as vote-rigger or janitor. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 14:25 Oatsmaster wrote: So you claim your draft order number thing? 1. that takes the fun out of PYP because you dont actually get to PICK YOUR POWER. 2. if scum get in the top 5 or whatever, bad things yo. 3. Dont play to not let the mafia win, play to win. The point of the game is winning. If you want to be retarded and pick a "cool" role and then proceed to use it to lose town the game, it is not fun for everyone else. Inhibiting mafia's ability to pick ridiculous roles is inherently necessary to ensuring that town succeeds. Don't be stupid. You also fail to understand the mechanic. By assigning a player MOST or ALL people agree is probably town a role that MAIFA wants, we effectively deny mafia the role. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 14:41 Oatsmaster wrote: Yeah thats playing to prevent mafia from winning. Like OH LETS PICK JANITOR FOR THIS DUDE. you are basically a VT. Why dont you pick janitor? VT be boring yo. "Playing to prevent mafia from winning" is EXACTLY THE SAME THING as playing to help town win. Just arguing against it by saying it's "boring" is bullshit. Oats, you aren't this stupid. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
It pains ME to have to walk YOU through this. Mafia are hurt more through the denial of good roles than town are. Town's most powerful asset is INHERENT TO THE GAME, which is their ability to scumhunt. Do you feel like you need to rely on a role to win as town? Do you feel that way as mafia? Think about these questions, and then come back to me with a more definite answer. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 14:54 Oatsmaster wrote: Dumdumdum, I dont feel like roles are necessary to win for either alignment. Also in my example, its 1 or the other, mafia dont get a choice, they already have their roles. Does janitor affect lynch flips? Janitor only works at night, but there will be more flips then than at lynch. Think about this: We, as town, have a consensus town read on 4 players going into the pick phase. TWO of them get in the top five, one at number 2, and one at number 5. If we tell the guy at number two to pick janitor, and he is actually town (meaning town did a good job townhunting), then we either DENY MAFIA THE ROLE, or confirm the first player to pick as mafia. Either way, it's a good outcome for town, and the MOST LIKELY situation is that we simply deny mafia the role and make that player a VT, which is absolutely okay. Rinse, repeat with Vote-rigger for the person in the fifth slot, and deny mafia another powerful role. This is quite town-favored, because while town roles mostly focus on augmenting someone's scumhunting capabilities, mafia roles overtly interfere with town's ability to scumhunt effectively. Mafia roles also tend to be more powerful because of the nature of the game, which is that mafia are vastly outnumbered while having the advantage of being informed and coordinated. This means that town SHOULD be more occupied with denying mafia roles like these and KP roles than getting other roles which only somewhat aid their ability to scumhunt. Capisce? | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
Traditional Mafia Roles (barring traitor roles) Vote Altering Roles KP roles Would be town's priority with the early picks. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
Oats, also, I kind of understand. His stance is "pick a role and have fun", which other people have basically said. I understand this notion, because it does seem to tread into WIFOM-territory with trying to direct things like this, but in all honesty, it's a safe plan that might gain town an advantage where one was not to be had before. The pick order being public exists for a reason, right? Why can't we attempt to use the setup to our advantage instead of just hoping the role distribution favors town? If there are any other semi-legitimate objections to my plan, I would like to hear them. At the very least, consider the pick order as something to ponder over. How can we, as town, use it to our advantage? Can we deny mafia roles, or perhaps ensure that town gets some of the ones they want? It is arguable that the game could well be won or lost by how we pick roles, so don't just blow it off like it's nothing. Seriously consider what it is you want to do in the next two days of play time. I want to hold a pseudo-mayoral election and try to deny mafia some power roles. What do YOU want to do? | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
While some town players could be directed, like my plan would have them be, other ones who we aren't telling what to do could just as easily try to deny mafia roles (and claim them as I said), or pick KP/DOC/INFO roles to aid town. If town picks to deny and claims, mafia could pick the BC role and shoot them. Mafia could pick the role thief and steal it. Mafia could pick from other pro-mafia roles that exist in the game. There are plenty of options at mafia's disposal, but denying them SOME of those options can only be good for town, no? No plan here is going to be perfect, but isn't it worth at least TRYING to do something good for town in this pick phase? | ||
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