As of late, I've been losing PVPs to people who pretty much mass Goons. I have like a 2:1 ratio of Zealots to Goons and I have Temps mixed in and yet I get slaughtered. In PVPs, are Goons the main choice?

iNCuBuS_

United States905 Posts

May 21 2006 07:03 GMT

I usually go mass goons, as that what I was taught/learned. Also, it helps to add in shuttles with reavers (just dont let them die for no reason) to back up your goons. They help a lot. Try to get ahead of him in bases and not let him take more, that way you can outproduce him with more gateways for goons and possibly an extra robo for reavers. Hope this helps, and hopefully Im right, other better players can probably help more.

Excalibur_Z

United States12242 Posts

May 21 2006 07:05 GMT

Goons are going to be your primary choice when the numbers become great, because you can have more of them attacking at once than Zealots. You can still get flanked and trapped by Zealots in the open field, but usually only if they're speed-upgraded. If this happens, Reavers are nice units to have. Goon/Reaver is a better choice than Goon/Templar I believe, especially since Reavers are on the same tech path as Observers (which you'll need to determine the most advantageous time to strike, find hidden expansions, and detect Dark Templar should he try to sneak one into one of your mineral lines).

learning88

United States160 Posts

May 21 2006 07:06 GMT

OMG, this whole time I thought like Speedlots murder Goons

Thanks for the help

BTW, would Temps be a better or worse substitute for Reavers? And is it possible to have all 3 units, like 3:1:1 ratio of Goons, Temps, and Reavers?

edit: Oops sorry, I didn't read the last post. I was writing this one

But thanks for the help. It's greatly appreciated

Bulgaria4150 Posts

May 21 2006 07:07 GMT

without replay this question is hard to be answered

phexac

United States186 Posts

May 21 2006 07:40 GMT

Goon or goon/reaver early-mid game. Zeal/archon late game. You can have way more of them than you can have of pure goons since archons are primarily gas and zeals are all minerals. You can easily support 8+ gates of zeal/archon off of 2 bases.

Early game reavers>temps.

Late game temps>reavers.

EvilTeletubby

Baltimore, USA22259 Posts

May 21 2006 07:51 GMT

On May 21 2006 15:58 learning88 wrote:
As of late, I've been losing PVPs to people who pretty much mass Goons. I have like a 2:1 ratio of Zealots to Goons and I have Temps mixed in and yet I get slaughtered. In PVPs, are Goons the main choice?

Is that you evan?

Bill307

Canada9103 Posts

May 21 2006 08:38 GMT

Depends on the map, in my opinion. If you can catch his goons in a giant miracle flank, you'll crush them easily with your zealots (assuming equal resources and all). Also, a small number of zealots is better than a small number of goons. Goons become superior when there are a lot of them and there's no way to easily flank them.

red.venom

United States4651 Posts

May 21 2006 08:53 GMT

A mix is best. Goons+Zeal+Temp+Archon... Zeal + Goon creates a really hard force for pure goon to counter. Mix in temps and its even better. Get archons if your opponent is making zeal too.

This is provided that the game is at least somewhat long(Probably 10+ minutes, both taking their nat at least).

Sphere`

8 Posts

May 21 2006 10:27 GMT

#10

Good mixture of Goons and speed lots would probally beat majority of people. Have good macro though.

dream-_-

United States1857 Posts

May 21 2006 10:48 GMT

#11

You obviously attacked wrong if what you said is true. With zeal you want to flank. Late game you need about 50/50 zeal/goon with ht and dt mixed in.

phexac

United States186 Posts

May 21 2006 12:04 GMT

#12

I am not sure why no one else is saying this, but zeal/archon is about as strong a combo as you can get PvP. If you feel you need a bit more punch, get 2-3 temps, but keep in mind that their slow speed will make you lose some mobility.

Also, look at it from the resource efficiency point of view. For 300/300 you can have:

-2 zeals and an archon
-2 goons and a temp
-3 zeals
-1 goon, 1 zeal, 1 temp

The first option lets you spend all your gas and is also the most powerful combination of units. If you have excess minerals, make cannons and more zeals. Goons are great units early on, but costing 125/50 they are not very resource efficient and build way too slow to be good in the massive macro battles of the late-game pvp.

I see some people trying to use storm against zeals, but that can be easily dodged and becomes useless once zeals have all enganged the goons. Reavers, also can be good, but you have to pay A LOT of attention to them for them to be effective, and they lose their usefulness once enemy numbers increase. Plus they are very vulnerable to storm, so 1-2 temps is all you need to counter reavers.

Finally, a large portion of maps are very flank-friendly. Luna, Rush Hour, Azalea, R-Point, Nostalgia, Cultivation Period, RoV, and the list goes on. When flanked, goons becomes useless, zealots get vaporized by archons, and if you go goon, you won't have enough archons to counter. Basically, I would suggest in later game PvP to spend all gas on archons, with the exception of upgrades and possibly a few temps if you feel they are needed or you want to go for some storm raids. In my experience, the player with the most archons will usually win the PvP.

pyrogenetix

China5098 Posts

May 21 2006 18:52 GMT

#13

well um the "safest" way to go is mass goon cuz its like the "industry standard" and its decent against anything... sort of...
if u know ur opponent is going mass goons try going zeal with really fast leg so you can flank and kill his goons since zeals are small units and goon only do 10 dmg while zeal do 16 and attack faster than goon, and of course cheaper no gas (nalra vs foru)
but then of course if u have like 28374238 apm and go mass goons then you can dance ur way out of reach from zeal and w/e he throws at you... but not likely... (reach vs rock)
personally i would do goons with reav cuz u get ob tech as well and reav to harrass probes and/or support fire for big army clashes.
some ppl say switch to storm mid/late game cuz reavs get sniped, but i stick to reavs, just increase reav count to smthn ard 4,5 or 6 or w/e you want and keep massing goons with some zeals to keep him busy microing his goons and when you clash just watch out for zeals running towards you or storms.
just be careful with ur reavs, he might decide to suicide a bunch of stuff to get ur reav, in that case make sure he pays for the reav or keep ur reav alive =D

Cascade

Australia5405 Posts

May 21 2006 19:20 GMT

#14

On May 22 2006 03:52 pyrogenetix wrote:
try going zeal with really fast leg

I've missed the "really fast leg speed" uppgrade. Is that after the faster leg speed?

sry, that wasn't funny, it just made me laugh anyway.

BaKeRy-BoY

Chile36 Posts

May 21 2006 21:16 GMT

#15

Goons are the most efective choice. They can easily overkill a zeal/archon army by just sending a few zels to face your 3 cells range enemy's army =/. Goons will obliterate enemy zealots and even the enemy archons pretty damn fast. Of course, i asume you are doing some micro on your goons and you are not allowing your enemy to flank you easily.

Goons are also a goon counter to Arbiter and Carriers, also for allucinations and reavers. I think the worst enemy for Goons is a well placed storm on a narrow path or a "Must go trough here" path, since they are large, they tend to be very clumsy and if you don't keep a close control on them, they will fade out really quick.

When my oponnent go mass goons, i use a few storm on enemy probes and made a little presure by storming while his goons move trough the map (You could also destroy some obs in the storm, so your dts will be more eficient). Even as this won't stop his goons and units attacking your base, it does make him split a few goons to protect his nexus, and of course it slows its attack, while you gain valuable time.

I like Reavers, but i prefer a well placed storm (Mainly cuz it damages both air and ground, pierces def and if you place it well, you will kill observers). Reavers do great against zeals cuz they move to fast and don't get much dmg from storm. Anyway u go u'll have to choose wich one to get or have both eyes open for not to loose a chance.

Hope it could be of use

.

PD: Forgot to say. If you are getting overwhelmed by numbers, try pumping 1 or 2 carriers. They are an excellent decoy for goons attacks =).

Also if you can't make it to break the mid map fight and go near his base, halt 1 round of goons and pump some zeals, get and arbiter and research recall asap. You will enjoy to break trough his defences and make a huuuuuuge drop

GrandInquisitor

New York City13113 Posts

May 21 2006 22:05 GMT

#16

On May 22 2006 06:16 BaKeRy-BoY wrote:
PD: Forgot to say. If you are getting overwhelmed by numbers, try pumping 1 or 2 carriers. They are an excellent decoy for goons attacks =).

Um.

NonYold

United States2814 Posts

May 21 2006 22:29 GMT

#17

Zeals/HT are better than dragoons. There are many reasons why you almost always have to start the game with dragoons, but the sooner you can switch to pure zealot/templar/archon, the better. You can continue to mix in some dragoons to kill observers/shuttles/reavers, or to hold high ground better, but the dragoons should remain small in number.

If you are going zeal/templar/archon and losing to goons and reavers, then you've made a mistake somewhere else. With proper control and game management, the templar force will always win. The same just simply can't be said for mass dragoon. You rely on your opponent making mistakes

NonYold

United States2814 Posts

May 21 2006 22:35 GMT

#18

Also important to note is that it's good to mix in some zealot for very early game battles. Even when you have the opportunity to make dragoons with range, it's good to make 1 or 2 zealots. If both players are forced to make many zealots before they get dragoons, it's always better to have a few more zealots than quicker dragoons... unless you think you can do enough damage by microing your goons, and you'll really only be able to do that if you can finish range research significantly faster

ShabZzoY!

Great Britain760 Posts

May 21 2006 22:44 GMT

#19

I think unit combos need to be changed around throughout a pvp to react to opponents' mix.
Basically goons are only good for killing archons.