EPTPVP Unit choice
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learning88
United States160 Posts
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iNCuBuS_
United States905 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
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learning88
United States160 Posts
 Thanks for the help  BTW, would Temps be a better or worse substitute for Reavers? And is it possible to have all 3 units, like 3:1:1 ratio of Goons, Temps, and Reavers?edit: Oops sorry, I didn't read the last post. I was writing this one But thanks for the help. It's greatly appreciated | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4114 Posts
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phexac
United States186 Posts
Early game reavers>temps. Late game temps>reavers. | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
On May 21 2006 15:58 learning88 wrote: As of late, I've been losing PVPs to people who pretty much mass Goons. I have like a 2:1 ratio of Zealots to Goons and I have Temps mixed in and yet I get slaughtered. In PVPs, are Goons the main choice? Is that you evan? | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
This is provided that the game is at least somewhat long(Probably 10+ minutes, both taking their nat at least). | ||
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Sphere`
8 Posts
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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phexac
United States186 Posts
Also, look at it from the resource efficiency point of view. For 300/300 you can have: -2 zeals and an archon -2 goons and a temp -3 zeals -1 goon, 1 zeal, 1 temp The first option lets you spend all your gas and is also the most powerful combination of units. If you have excess minerals, make cannons and more zeals. Goons are great units early on, but costing 125/50 they are not very resource efficient and build way too slow to be good in the massive macro battles of the late-game pvp. I see some people trying to use storm against zeals, but that can be easily dodged and becomes useless once zeals have all enganged the goons. Reavers, also can be good, but you have to pay A LOT of attention to them for them to be effective, and they lose their usefulness once enemy numbers increase. Plus they are very vulnerable to storm, so 1-2 temps is all you need to counter reavers. Finally, a large portion of maps are very flank-friendly. Luna, Rush Hour, Azalea, R-Point, Nostalgia, Cultivation Period, RoV, and the list goes on. When flanked, goons becomes useless, zealots get vaporized by archons, and if you go goon, you won't have enough archons to counter. Basically, I would suggest in later game PvP to spend all gas on archons, with the exception of upgrades and possibly a few temps if you feel they are needed or you want to go for some storm raids. In my experience, the player with the most archons will usually win the PvP. | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5094 Posts
if u know ur opponent is going mass goons try going zeal with really fast leg so you can flank and kill his goons since zeals are small units and goon only do 10 dmg while zeal do 16 and attack faster than goon, and of course cheaper no gas (nalra vs foru) but then of course if u have like 28374238 apm and go mass goons then you can dance ur way out of reach from zeal and w/e he throws at you... but not likely... (reach vs rock) personally i would do goons with reav cuz u get ob tech as well and reav to harrass probes and/or support fire for big army clashes. some ppl say switch to storm mid/late game cuz reavs get sniped, but i stick to reavs, just increase reav count to smthn ard 4,5 or 6 or w/e you want and keep massing goons with some zeals to keep him busy microing his goons and when you clash just watch out for zeals running towards you or storms. just be careful with ur reavs, he might decide to suicide a bunch of stuff to get ur reav, in that case make sure he pays for the reav or keep ur reav alive =D | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On May 22 2006 03:52 pyrogenetix wrote: try going zeal with really fast leg I've missed the "really fast leg speed" uppgrade. Is that after the faster leg speed? sry, that wasn't funny, it just made me laugh anyway. | ||
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BaKeRy-BoY
Chile36 Posts
Goons are also a goon counter to Arbiter and Carriers, also for allucinations and reavers. I think the worst enemy for Goons is a well placed storm on a narrow path or a "Must go trough here" path, since they are large, they tend to be very clumsy and if you don't keep a close control on them, they will fade out really quick. When my oponnent go mass goons, i use a few storm on enemy probes and made a little presure by storming while his goons move trough the map (You could also destroy some obs in the storm, so your dts will be more eficient). Even as this won't stop his goons and units attacking your base, it does make him split a few goons to protect his nexus, and of course it slows its attack, while you gain valuable time. I like Reavers, but i prefer a well placed storm (Mainly cuz it damages both air and ground, pierces def and if you place it well, you will kill observers). Reavers do great against zeals cuz they move to fast and don't get much dmg from storm. Anyway u go u'll have to choose wich one to get or have both eyes open for not to loose a chance. Hope it could be of use  .PD: Forgot to say. If you are getting overwhelmed by numbers, try pumping 1 or 2 carriers. They are an excellent decoy for goons attacks =). Also if you can't make it to break the mid map fight and go near his base, halt 1 round of goons and pump some zeals, get and arbiter and research recall asap. You will enjoy to break trough his defences and make a huuuuuuge drop  | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 22 2006 06:16 BaKeRy-BoY wrote: PD: Forgot to say. If you are getting overwhelmed by numbers, try pumping 1 or 2 carriers. They are an excellent decoy for goons attacks =). Um. | ||
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
If you are going zeal/templar/archon and losing to goons and reavers, then you've made a mistake somewhere else. With proper control and game management, the templar force will always win. The same just simply can't be said for mass dragoon. You rely on your opponent making mistakes | ||
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
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ShabZzoY!
Great Britain760 Posts
Basically goons are only good for killing archons. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
hahahah | ||
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Asakura
Germany471 Posts
or: if i dont spend my resources on reaver tech, for what i should use the spare? templar tech? | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On May 22 2006 07:35 NonY wrote: Also important to note is that it's good to mix in some zealot for very early game battles. Even when you have the opportunity to make dragoons with range, it's good to make 1 or 2 zealots. If both players are forced to make many zealots before they get dragoons, it's always better to have a few more zealots than quicker dragoons... unless you think you can do enough damage by microing your goons, and you'll really only be able to do that if you can finish range research significantly faster srry but the first part of what you are saying is wrong. Its not good to make 1 to 2 zealots if u already make range goons. After an certain point zealots dont do anything anymore. Thats around the time when u have 5-7 ranged goons. Additional zealots are just shot down then.. But its indeed right, if you make a zealot battle ( like u stated in the last part ) many zealots and some goons are better than 50/50 mix.. | ||
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BaKeRy-BoY
Chile36 Posts
I missed the point =/. | ||
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Overlord
Romania651 Posts
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BaKeRy-BoY
Chile36 Posts
On May 22 2006 10:42 Overlord wrote: I think he kinda disagrees Oh, thx =). Kinda suspected it xD | ||
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beavis.smurf
United States339 Posts
if you dont waste your gas on dragoons that are raped by reavers, and only get a couple templars you can tech to carriers. | ||
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phexac
United States186 Posts
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
On May 22 2006 08:16 MaGic~PhiL wrote: srry but the first part of what you are saying is wrong. Its not good to make 1 to 2 zealots if u already make rage goons. After an certain point zealots dont do anything anymore. Thats around the time when u have 5-7 ranged goons. Additional zealots are just shot down then.. But its indeed right, if you make a zealot battle ( like u stated in the last part ) many zealots and some goons are better than 50/50 mix.. You have no right or reason to post here and say that I am wrong. He asks advice- I give mine, you give yours, that is all. There's nothing for you to say to me here about my advice. I'm not going to argue back and forth. If you take such things so seriously, then you can find me on Europe or West as sMi.NonY and take your best shot at beating me in a series of games. Otherwise I accept nothing less than a public apology and admission of error. | ||
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kidd
United States2848 Posts
On May 22 2006 12:13 NonY wrote: You have no right or reason to post here and say that I am wrong. He asks advice- I give mine, you give yours, that is all. There's nothing for you to say to me here about my advice. I'm not going to argue back and forth. If you take such things so seriously, then you can find me on Europe or West as sMi.NonY and take your best shot at beating me in a series of games. Otherwise I accept nothing less than a public apology and admission of error. phill i believe he is saying that ur first unit that you make from the gateway should be a zealot, while on your way up the tech tree. Alot of times in pvp the person your playing will try send a zealot in to your base early to kill ur probes, so its good to make 1-2 z's because in a miror m/u, economy is very crucial.,,mnnnnnn | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
unless you want to harass or try and kill the opponent early, you should build way more goons than zealots early. Just 0-3 zealots in the army to draw fire. By midgame you want a bit more with speedlots, but for the same reasons. Also approaching midgame you will have to make a choice between reaver, HT, DT. Personally, I feel reaver is the safest and overall most powerful choice. Later still HTs will become better, with even larger armies, and less micro needed. If the opponent insists on plenty of speedlots, and you went HTs, you will want some speedlots yourself to block him and clog them and possibly archons which will then rape them. Wow, beginning to rant now so I'm gonna stop. | ||
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BaKeRy-BoY
Chile36 Posts
Goons have more range than a archon. It's true that they fire a bit slower than archons, but that time is somehow compensated by the archons slow walk. Also as they first engage your zealots, it's kinda hard to maintain a fresh archon army while each templar has 50sec warp time + 20more for archon melt. Also to remember that each archons costs 4food and goons take 2 only. Maybe this is 2 much thoery, but i still havn't seen a goon + zeal army being defeated by a zeal + archon =/. If sum1 has a rep about that, it would be apretiated. thx | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2583 Posts
On May 22 2006 13:24 BaKeRy-BoY wrote: I still don't see how archons could beat a goon army =/. Goons have more range than a archon. It's true that they fire a bit slower than archons, but that time is somehow compensated by the archons slow walk. Also as they first engage your zealots, it's kinda hard to maintain a fresh archon army while each templar has 50sec warp time + 20more for archon melt. Also to remember that each archons costs 4food and goons take 2 only. Maybe this is 2 much thoery, but i still havn't seen a goon + zeal army being defeated by a zeal + archon =/. If sum1 has a rep about that, it would be apretiated. thx Because there is a LOT of goons and even more zeal/archon. Dancing a few goons is easy, 2 groups is tricky but 4 control groups of goons in a semi tigth space is a nigthmare. Add storms that you have to get away from and the fact that his speed makes it much easier to set up a flank with 1-2 groups of speedlots and your in for a bit of trouble. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
A pure zealot army will beat a pure dragoon army given the right conditions (open ground, his goons on the same ground level as your zealots etc.) Reavers are an excellent counter against zealots, and they force you to mix goons and templars (you will have a whole lot more gas than him anyway) Basically imo, if he starts getting too many goons you get a cytadel and mass speedzealots and templars, if he adds reavers, then you add goons and templars. | ||
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{ToT}Strafe
Thailand7026 Posts
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Xeroth
United States432 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On May 22 2006 12:13 NonY wrote: You have no right or reason to post here and say that I am wrong. He asks advice- I give mine, you give yours, that is all. There's nothing for you to say to me here about my advice. I'm not going to argue back and forth. If you take such things so seriously, then you can find me on Europe or West as sMi.NonY and take your best shot at beating me in a series of games. Otherwise I accept nothing less than a public apology and admission of error. You are insane. I have all the right to post and say that i think you are wrong in certain parts of your ''advice''. The reason is, i think you are wrong and i have the fully right to say that. Who the hell do you even think you are ? The next interesting question is who of us is taking this too serious. You, the guy who wants a public apology for stating my opinion and telling you that imho yours is not entirely right, or me who didnt flame anyone in first hand, who just said that he doesnt really agree with you in all aspects you named. I wont even bother playing you, cause it would not change anything at all about this. Do you think someones opinion/advice/whateva u may call it , depends on how good he is / or whom he beats ? Like : If testie said , that 20 zeals > 20 carriers and i said 20 carriers > 20 zeals and testie bashs me 20:0 after 20 games do you think that would change anything about the truth ? In our case its not as far as obvious in my example and there is no clear truth, just opinion and by playing a bo7 nothing would really change, k ? To me you look like a total fool, and it appears that it's not me but you who takes this stuff to serious.. Last thing : Try to not to look at the Name's which wrote the posts, but read them just by their content and sense and you will maybe find out .. Bye and once again my apologizes ! PhiL | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
I'm completely serious btw, I'm pretty sure that's him. | ||
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Locked
United States4182 Posts
On May 23 2006 10:08 EvilTeletubby wrote: I'm completely serious btw, I'm pretty sure that's him. you're thinking of sorrow_eyes http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=30794 his aka was learningtoss | ||
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