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Customer Discrimination: Okay or Not?

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cLAN.Anax
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States2847 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 19:34:55
January 18 2013 16:29 GMT
#1
Companies and businesses have discriminated for or against customers based on many characteristics throughout time. Stories crop up regularly where a certain business owner is accused of prejudiced practices.

The events of the Civil Rights Movement in America provide great examples of this. Segregation drew a line between whites and non-whites wherever people went. Restaurants would force separation of the races or refuse service. In the below photo, at least one black citizen “sits-in” at a diner in protest of the discrimination expressed by the establishment, peacefully fighting for equal treatment as paying a customer.

[image loading]
(While the people at the bar are being mistreated by the surrounding onlookers, and despite the obvious importance of that, please focus instead on the relationship between diner owner and customer.)

More recently, certain bakers have refused to offer some of their products for weddings between same-sex couples, usually stemming from a personal disagreement with the morality of marrying two members of the same sex.

Source.

LAKEWOOD, Colo. (CBS4) – Chick-fil-A’s president spoke out against gay marriage last week, sparking a huge uproar in the gay community, and now the issue is spilling over to a Colorado bakery.

The owner of Masterpiece Cake Shop in Lakewood refused to bake a wedding cake for a local gay couple and now people are pushing a boycott against the owner.

Shop owner Jack Phillips probably didn’t think he was going to be wading into a civil rights debate a week ago when he told the gay couple that he would not make a cake for their wedding, but that’s exactly what has happened.

Dave Mullin and Charlie Craig say they dated for nearly two years before getting engaged. They went into the Masterpiece Cake Shop thinking they’d spend a full day trying cakes for their ceremony. Instead the meeting lasted a few seconds.

“My first comment was, ‘We’re getting married,’ and he just shut that down immediately,” Craig said.

Mullin and Craig were stunned. They went online and posted their experience on Facebook. The response has been huge.

Dozens of protesters gathered outside the shop on Saturday and were very angry.

It wasn’t the first time the shop turned down gay couples who wanted a cake. Phillips has received more than 1,000 angry messages about his stance.

“If gays come in and want to order birthday cakes or any cakes for any occasion, graduations, or whatever, I have no prejudice against that whatsoever,” Phillips said. “It’s just the wedding cake, not the people, not their lifestyle.”

“I support local business, I think it’s really important to our community to support local business,” protester Cate Owen said. “If it has to do with discrimination I don’t think we should support it. I think we should want to change their policies. It’s not like we want to shut them down.”

Some customers said they are now ordering cakes at the shop specifically because of the stance against gay marriage.

“We would close down that bakery before we closed our beliefs, so that may be what it comes to … we’ll see,” Phillips said.

A larger protest is scheduled to take place next Saturday.


Just this past week, reports have confirmed that the owner of a smoothie bar called “I Love Drilling” charges customers differently based on their political worldview, reinvigorating this topic once again, which prompted me to start this thread originally. Conservative customers are charged $4.95, while liberal clients are charged one dollar more at $5.95. Members of the crew team are charged lower than both at $3.95.

Source. Additional video source.

A juice and smoothie bar owner in Utah is charging liberals an extra dollar for drinks.

George Burnett, owner of I Love Drilling Juice & Smoothie Bar, says he's trying to make a point about fiscal responsibility.

“We have a fiscal problem in this country. We’ve got to deal with it or we don’t have a country, so to kind of help make that point, just a little bit, I charge liberals just a little bit more. Really what I’m focused on is the fiscal differences between big government/small government and liberal ways, as far as entitlements and spending,” said Burnett, in a KSL.com report.

Burnett says the extra money will go to support the conservative Washngton-based think tank, The Heritage Foundation.

Burnett, also a pro-oil and gas activist, plainly lists prices for his drinks, with colorful names like Drakes Well, Oil Creek and Old American. Conservatives: $4.95, Liberals: $5.95, and Crew Team Members: $3.95.

Not all are finding his "liberal tax" sweet tasting. Some have criticized the move on Facebook saying it is "pathetic" and "offensive." One user, Justin Olson, wrote: “If you own a business, you don’t insult half of your potential customers. That’s Econ 101.”

But many don't appear to mind the extra charge.

Another user Splinter Baker wrote: "I LOVE what you're doing! Never back down! keep it up!


Many would agree that it is unwise for a business owner to affiliate an otherwise neutral enterprise with any brand of political, moral, or religious worldview. It is generally seen as unnecessary and bothersome when considering most paying customers only desire basic transactions of compensation for goods and services.

However, more than a few businesses discriminate in a manner that society views as courteous and righteous. The mere premise of a “ladies’ night” at a bar, where women (but only women) are treated to a discount on such occasions, is a clear act of discrimination. Students, veterans, and senior citizens are often incentivized with costs that are a fraction of the normal price. As a student myself, if I show my student ID, the majority of fast-food restaurants will grant me a discount when I place my order.

Breakdown Of The Views:

Support:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Owners have the freedom to operate their business however they please and should not be forced to serve someone they have no contract with for whatever reason they wish.

2. No one is forcing customers or clients to do business with companies that implement prejudiced practices in the way they serve them. Such individuals always have the freedom to do business elsewhere, or begin their own business that conducts its practices more in line with their own views.


Oppose:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Clients and customers can be too easily given the “short end of the stick,” so to speak, if the person or business they wish to purchase a good or service from denies said good or service. As an example, doctors could choose to withhold vital medical treatment for reasons their patients do not agree with. The customer has a right to the product or service they desire and pay for no matter what it is, so long as it complies with the law.

2. There are some traits that should never be used to prejudice consumers, namely race, gender, and sexual orientation. Such unequal treatment is not what is best for society. The Civil Rights Movement fought to eradicate this blatant discrimination, and we should not support this prejudice now either.



What The Law Currently Says:


Civil Rights Act of 1964: link.

Source.

According to Attorney Craig Fagan, a business cannot refuse service to anyone that the Civil Rights Act deems a "protected class." This would include discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, creed, national origin or disability. Fagan asserts that, although many businesses hang signs stating, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anybody," these signs are illegal and provide a way for a business to excuse illegal discrimination against certain consumers.


Source.

While consumers are not a protected class, with respect to anti-discrimination laws, some laws do apply to consumers in certain situations. For example, creditors may not decline an otherwise qualified mortgage applicant solely on the basis of their skin color. Similarly, a department store issuing credit cannot charge a higher interest rate to a customer with a foreign accent. This section covers the basics of discrimination as it pertains to consumers; how to file complaints with the appropriate government agency; contact information; and more.


Another "Great Wall of Text," but it's from Cornell's Law School, so here's a link.



I conclude this OP with a question to further complicate matters to further stimulate your thinking: Do we see these acts as benevolent discounts for certain individuals, or unfair price hikes for others? What should we see these as?

+ Show Spoiler +
Well, and a poll. Because everyone loves polls.


Poll: Should businesses be able to discriminate service to consumers?

Yes. (123)
 
49%

No. (80)
 
32%

Depends on what is being discriminated. (46)
 
18%

249 total votes

Your vote: Should businesses be able to discriminate service to consumers?

(Vote): Yes.
(Vote): No.
(Vote): Depends on what is being discriminated.

┬─┬___(ツ)_/¯ 彡┻━┻ I am the 4%. "I cant believe i saw ANAL backwards before i saw the word LAN." - Capped
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4839 Posts
January 18 2013 16:37 GMT
#2
No. Open to the public means open to the public.
My strategy is to fork people.
Noizhende
Profile Joined January 2012
Austria328 Posts
January 18 2013 16:49 GMT
#3
Sooo... How does he tell how much he has to charge? Do you have to bring a certificate to prove your conservative mindset? And where are those issued?
Die neuen Tempel haben schon Risse - künftige Ruinen - einst wächst Gras auch über diese Stadt - über ihre letzte Schicht
Jayve
Profile Joined February 2009
155 Posts
January 18 2013 16:51 GMT
#4
I feel there is a difference between getting denied service at a brand store (like a McDonalds) and then a store/business affiliated with just 1 "store" like your local sandwich shop.

But yes, despite being on the receiving end of it my entire life (because of the country I live in combined with my ethnicity), I feel the single businesses have the right to do what they want, while I expect bigger chains/brands to give the same service in all their stores. Granted that service can also be descriminatory.

I guess I'm asking for consistency.
Equity213
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada873 Posts
January 18 2013 16:52 GMT
#5
On January 19 2013 01:37 Severedevil wrote:
No. Open to the public means open to the public.


But its not open to the public: Its a private business. Just like your home, someone owns it and its their private property. So yes.

Besides, its a dumb business plan to discriminate anyways. The people who do wont last.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14038 Posts
January 18 2013 16:52 GMT
#6
On January 19 2013 01:37 Severedevil wrote:
No. Open to the public means open to the public.

What if you say that you're only open to straight people and not the general public itself?
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
cLAN.Anax
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States2847 Posts
January 18 2013 16:53 GMT
#7
Personal opinion:

+ Show Spoiler +
I have to wonder what the guy would charge a libertarian, hahaha! Halfway between the two ends of the price range?

I’m in the “support” camp, as I believe both clients and business owners have the right to choose how and with whom they want to conduct business. I believe it is rather unwise of owners to discriminate based on, what I see as, ultimately unnecessary factors, but it is their freedom to do so if they want to. Likewise, I believe customers who take offense to any practices of the business may do their business elsewhere, and should have the freedom to do so.

I realize I’m biased on this, and I don’t feel I’ve given enough to the breakdown of the views, especially to the “oppose” side. If someone posts a particularly good reason either for or against customer prejudice, I’ll add it to the OP.

┬─┬___(ツ)_/¯ 彡┻━┻ I am the 4%. "I cant believe i saw ANAL backwards before i saw the word LAN." - Capped
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
January 18 2013 16:57 GMT
#8
Depends is the only one that makes sense to me. We have laws against racist speech and we should have laws against racist actions. For the good of society and to allow bigoted morons less of a chance to attempt to divide society. The liberals and conservative thing is hilarious (how do you test it) but shouldn't be illegal.
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
January 18 2013 16:59 GMT
#9
On January 19 2013 01:37 Severedevil wrote:
No. Open to the public means open to the public.

If someone has come in specifically to disrupt service and be a nuisance, than a business should have the right to deny services. That is a fine line, but most restaurants reserve the right to refuse service to someone without giving an explanation. Once you walk in, it is like agreeing to a ToS agreement. Seriously, I've seen a lot of restaurants do this (that is mostly due to my area) and yet, being able to deny service to some is necessary for some business. Now I don't think that extends this level of descrimination, but completely getting rid of that is definitely too extreme.
User was warned for too many mimes.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 17:03:52
January 18 2013 16:59 GMT
#10
--- Nuked ---
Equity213
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada873 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 17:01:37
January 18 2013 17:00 GMT
#11
In North America we dont have any laws against racist speech.
"I dont agree with what you say but will defend your right to say it" kinda thing. So just apply that same rule to property, because whats the point of freedom of speech if your not free to excersize your beliefs in any material sense.

Racist homophobes will be dealt with by social ostracism and people voting with their dollars. Its 2012, we dont need laws for that anymore. IMO.
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 17:03:35
January 18 2013 17:01 GMT
#12
It depends.

Makes sense that your local church would discriminate in favor of its religion and members, or insurance companies discriminate between high and low risk customers. But I don't think anyone would think it should be legal for hospitals or emergency centers to refuse treatment due to race, religion, or political views.
TotalNightmare
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Germany139 Posts
January 18 2013 17:06 GMT
#13
Denying something that you have a monopoly on is just wrong.
If somone however denies something that he doesnt have a monopoly on, he should be allowed to do so simply because that actually protects the person who is being denied from getting a low quality product.
Higher prices based on political views are also not a problem for me as long as that is said so people who do it have the freedom to run their buisness into the ground as they deserve.

Generally I'd say the statement about monopolies applies from my point of view, as long as it isnt getting actually inconvinient for the custommer.
"That's like somone walking into YOUR house and putting a plant down on the table and starting to water it. While he shoots you with a gun!" - Day9
cLAN.Anax
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States2847 Posts
January 18 2013 17:13 GMT
#14
On January 19 2013 01:57 sc4k wrote:
Depends is the only one that makes sense to me. We have laws against racist speech and we should have laws against racist actions. For the good of society and to allow bigoted morons less of a chance to attempt to divide society. The liberals and conservative thing is hilarious (how do you test it) but shouldn't be illegal.


I assume they ask you at the register. It looks like their policy is plastered pretty plainly so there's no misunderstanding.
┬─┬___(ツ)_/¯ 彡┻━┻ I am the 4%. "I cant believe i saw ANAL backwards before i saw the word LAN." - Capped
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 17:23:22
January 18 2013 17:19 GMT
#15
On January 19 2013 02:00 Equity213 wrote:
In North America we dont have any laws against racist speech.
"I dont agree with what you say but will defend your right to say it" kinda thing. So just apply that same rule to property, because whats the point of freedom of speech if your not free to excersize your beliefs in any material sense.

Racist homophobes will be dealt with by social ostracism and people voting with their dollars. Its 2012, we dont need laws for that anymore. IMO.


I'm glad we don't deal with it in that way here. By allowing racists to deny services to certain races you are condoning racist and divisive gestures, even as much as you say you are against them and that social ostracism will deal with it. For many of them, the goal will be to make a statement more than to improve business. They will probably take any loss in revenue as the price of putting their vile bigotry out there.

It's an unnecessary provocation and a ferocious insult to the past to hang a sign saying 'no blacks or dogs' in your shop window (for example), and it hasn't stopped being like that since that sort of sign was commonplace back in America or SA. In terms of 'no liberals', that's just funny...but racism is not funny. There should not exist a sacrosanct right to hang such a sign in your window. I believe that's outdated thinking and just not sensitive to the modern world. It belongs in 1776 not 2012.

On January 19 2013 02:13 cLAN.Anax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2013 01:57 sc4k wrote:
Depends is the only one that makes sense to me. We have laws against racist speech and we should have laws against racist actions. For the good of society and to allow bigoted morons less of a chance to attempt to divide society. The liberals and conservative thing is hilarious (how do you test it) but shouldn't be illegal.


I assume they ask you at the register. It looks like their policy is plastered pretty plainly so there's no misunderstanding.


So I assume you can just say 'yes, I am a conservative. I love me some guns, I hate me some immigants, the south shall rise again. Can I have my burger now.'

I'm actually still laughing at the conservative/ liberal price difference. I love how it's only one dollar. Like...I'm going to insult you and make you pay more for your food...but not that much more so really it's quite a reasonable penalty for being liberal. Haha.
FiWiFaKi
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada9859 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 17:22:44
January 18 2013 17:21 GMT
#16
I think yes, but to an extent. If I have a fancy restaurant where I want rich arrogant white people to come eat, I can maximize my profits by not allowing black or Asian people there, because if my customers are racist, I will be scaring away my rich customers by having other people there.

I think it's my legal right to do that, however, this would stir up a lot of racism in society which could result in violence etc, which is the main counter-argument, because this could pretty much lead to slavery again.

On the other hand, I do think there is nothing wrong with having designated countries, where you would not be allowed to live there, unless you were a certain religion, a certain race, and not mentally disabled. Humans should have to right to surround themselves with people they prefer, and if someone thinks "I don't want to sit on this bus because the guy next to me smells really bad", he should have an alternative to live elsewhere, where that wouldn't be an issue.

It'd all come down to an international agency controlling this regulation, so everyone can have a home...


AND never-mind, scratch everything I said, more I realize, all situations are going to be bad, the one I just started talking about would yield to pretty extreme nationalism, and currently the western human morality has no way to make this a viable environment to live in. Might seem bad that you're a business owner and you HAVE to sell to everyone, but honestly, it just makes everything so much more peaceful and safer.

For my final point, I think it should be only okay in very rare situations, such as churches, race culture clubs, political discussion clubs and such. Anything very for profit or something that others feel they are really missing out on will lead to bad things.
In life, the journey is more satisfying than the destination. || .::Entrepreneurship::. Living a few years of your life like most people won't, so that you can spend the rest of your life like most people can't || Mechanical Engineering & Economics Major
danl9rm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States3111 Posts
January 18 2013 17:24 GMT
#17
I'm pretty torn on the issue, like at the level of whether government should even get in the way. It could really get out of control one way or the other, and the Bible says it will in the future, "...so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark..." Rev. 13:17a

I don't know, tough call. I don't think it's possible to definitively lump all cases into either "yes" or "no." Some are "yes," some are "no."
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
Figgy
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada1788 Posts
January 18 2013 17:28 GMT
#18
Absolutely as long as it does not infringe on your basic human rights via racism etc.

I have every right to refuse service to someone who I think is a total douchebag, weather it be because they are gay, slept with my wife, or otherwise.
Bug Fixes Fixed an issue where, when facing a SlayerS terran, completing a hatchery would cause a medivac and 8 marines to randomly spawn nearby and attack it.
cLAN.Anax
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States2847 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 17:34:28
January 18 2013 17:33 GMT
#19
On January 19 2013 02:19 sc4k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2013 02:00 Equity213 wrote:
In North America we dont have any laws against racist speech.
"I dont agree with what you say but will defend your right to say it" kinda thing. So just apply that same rule to property, because whats the point of freedom of speech if your not free to excersize your beliefs in any material sense.

Racist homophobes will be dealt with by social ostracism and people voting with their dollars. Its 2012, we dont need laws for that anymore. IMO.


I'm glad we don't deal with it in that way here. By allowing racists to deny services to certain races you are condoning racist and divisive gestures, even as much as you say you are against them and that social ostracism will deal with it. For many of them, the goal will be to make a statement more than to improve business. They will probably take any loss in revenue as the price of putting their vile bigotry out there.

It's an unnecessary provocation and a ferocious insult to the past to hang a sign saying 'no blacks or dogs' in your shop window (for example), and it hasn't stopped being like that since that sort of sign was commonplace back in America or SA. In terms of 'no liberals', that's just funny...but racism is not funny. There should not exist a sacrosanct right to hang such a sign in your window. I believe that's outdated thinking and just not sensitive to the modern world. It belongs in 1776 not 2012.

Show nested quote +
On January 19 2013 02:13 cLAN.Anax wrote:
On January 19 2013 01:57 sc4k wrote:
Depends is the only one that makes sense to me. We have laws against racist speech and we should have laws against racist actions. For the good of society and to allow bigoted morons less of a chance to attempt to divide society. The liberals and conservative thing is hilarious (how do you test it) but shouldn't be illegal.


I assume they ask you at the register. It looks like their policy is plastered pretty plainly so there's no misunderstanding.


So I assume you can just say 'yes, I am a conservative. I love me some guns, I hate me some immigants, the south shall rise again. Can I have my burger now.'

I'm actually still laughing at the conservative/ liberal price difference. I love how it's only one dollar. Like...I'm going to insult you and make you pay more for your food...but not that much more so really it's quite a reasonable penalty for being liberal. Haha.


I would argue they're only tolerating the freedom to be racist, not the racism itself.

For the smoothie shop, I'm sure you could lie about your political inclination and pay the lower price. I doubt they do background checks or check voting histories on customers to make sure they are telling the truth, lol. And if they charged too much, they wouldn't get any money from liberal consumers ever. He's trying to make a point first, minimally exploit certain-minded individuals second.

You misspelled "immigrants," by the way. I honestly cannot tell if that was intentional however, lol.
┬─┬___(ツ)_/¯ 彡┻━┻ I am the 4%. "I cant believe i saw ANAL backwards before i saw the word LAN." - Capped
SgtCoDFish
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom1520 Posts
January 18 2013 17:36 GMT
#20
Discriminating against people for the way they were born (i.e. homophobia, racism, sexism) is stupid as fuck and should never be allowed, customer or not.

The guy doing the "liberal tax" is just trying to get publicity. He's basically telling half his potential customer base to go fuck themselves hoping it'll make the other half buy more to support him. Business decision which I'd think would backfire, but I don't see much of an issue with it morally.

I'd fully support any business that discriminates against assholes and morons, though. E.g. tech support gets a call from an angry clueless computer user who claims to "know computers" but actually knows nothing, I'd be happy if the business just told him exactly where to stick it. If the same guy had rung up and asked politely for help, they'd serve him. That I'm cool with. But it doesn't happen and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
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