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http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls3/vod/70717
This is the replay between gumiho and life, game 1 no GOMTV subscription needed  ^
Game starts at 1:42:00 or so:
http://www.twitch.tv/onemoregametv/b/341990997
This is a different game that someone also posted giving an example of minimal but effective drops and making mmmg build work. Taeja vs Miya EGMC game 3... thanks @eeChiama for the replay!
Hello TL this is my first post on here but I would like to get a legitimate discussion on using Marine marauder medivac ghost in the TvZ match up. I think we need to address real issues that plague most Terrans in this match up.
As you can see by this build. It is a 3 CC build with 2 racks before Factory which is fairly standard. Gumiho get really late hellions but I think they serve a good purpose as he is only investing into ~4 hellions. The hellions are only used for map control/scouting just like in every other game.
Important: he doesn't lose his initial hellions until infestors fungal them. So these are not expendable by any means, so he never tries to go into the base unless he was scouting for a 3rd or trying to get drones before queens/lings arrive.
Notice: He gets early stim and +1 instead of going for banshee. I believe this is important because most zergs go double evo chamber so it may seem like terran gets behind on upgrades, and it just goes downhill from there.
But back to the point of this post. Gumiho does an extreme amount of drop harass plus denial of 4th/5th throughout the entire game which was extremely beautiful to watch. Even though gumiho's army got fungaled a lot he was still able to recover because he kept denying the 4th of Life. He then got 2 ghost academies at ~16min mark which he then immediately started mobious reactor and cloak at the same time. He then used the ghosts for EMP, snipe, and offensive/defensive nukes which forced Life to back off from engaging. But while Life was out on the map with his army, gumiho just drop harassed and tried to snipe hatches/tech structures while life couldn't engage because of the nukes.
Note: Almost every drop contained 4 marauders. Not only are marauders are great for sniping tech structures they are also great at wasting fungal energy. It takes 3 Fungals to kill a marauder and with the extra range most of the time you are able to get a couple shots at a infestor if they do attempt to fungal you. Also lings take a long time without fungal to kill marauders, so its just enough time to snipe a structure (maybe not enough for a hatch) so this leaves marauder completely beast as drop harass units.
Gumiho only engages the full zerg army about once and in that engagement he loads up ghosts into a medivac and drops them relatively close to the infestors (which is risky but most players wouldnt waste a fungal on a single medivac when they could do more damage with their infestors) he then EMPs the infestors leaving 3 infestors with energy out of the 13 Life had. He then begins to use snipe a lot on the rest of the infestors. Once he was able to pick off infestors he then engaged the broodlords and those were obliterated quickly.
Note: Gumiho waited for Life to attack him. Which makes things easier for gumiho since he already has the concave and position needed to set up the best engagement possible against life's army.
Advantages of this build
Increase of mobility to exploit infestor and BL speed
Extra Gas leaving room for easy ghost Transition (plus infrastructure is already there)
Better positional battles because there are no tanks (which lead to the army retreating and then getting overrun by ling/infestor)
No Vikings (I know it makes sense to make vikings since BL cant shoot at them but Vikings decrease mobility of army plus requires magic boxing so they all dont get horribly fungaled, not to mention its a hell of a lot easier to make 10 corrupters then 10 vikings)
Marauder drops are extremely effective because they do well against spines, infestors, and lings when positioned properly. (Remember you are not attacking the lings you are attack tech structures)
Makes the opponent use their APM for defending and not attacking, which leads to less creep spread and other things.
Keeps a bit of army at home so it defends against ling run-by's which IMO there were very few considering who he was playing.
NO ZERG in their right mind will do a tech switch to Ultras when you already have marauders on the field.
Marauders have more health which IMO is very undervalued (3 Fungals instead of 2 on marines, plus banes are less effective)
Disadvantages of this build
APM intensive
Very vulnerable to attack in early game
Not sure how it would do against Muta/ling/bane (because of how mineral intensive it is) hard to put up turrets???
So, I guess what I'm trying to ask is: Do you think this is a viable strategy? I know Ghosts have been hit with the nerf bat but I still believe they can be effective. Discussion would be really nice. Or ways this strategy could be improved?
I wouldn't post this if I didn't think it were viable, but I'm sick and tired of watching games were the Terran gets crapped on because of either vikings or unseige of tanks.
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United States8476 Posts
Good post, but please look at the strategy forum guidelines and tag properly next time ^^.
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Great read, I've been meaning to implement bio+ghost on TvZ, but lacked the example games to do it. Will watch this game asap.
I think that the great advantage of bio is that the mobility lets you get really agressive and thus deny or delay the zerg's 4th (which is crucial) and maybe hive tech.
Taeja vs Miya from Liquid vs Slayers on EGMC (November 22) Game 3 on Ohana exemplifies the importance of denying the 4th I think. Even tho Taeja opened with shenanigans and got ghosts really late on the game he did still play bio and maybe we can get a thing or two from this game!
Game starts at 1:42:00 or so:
http://www.twitch.tv/onemoregametv/b/341990997
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts?
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I completely agree with you. Ohana is a very hard map to drop on and because its a very thing map but I still think the build still applies. When you are constantly putting on aggression on the zerg they are forced to make units. Also taeja made Miya in this game split up his infestors to deal with the drops. The drops are great for getting rid of not only infestor energy but sniping tech structures. Taeja does a great job at sniping +3 armor? Which is a freaking huge deal and not to mention Taeja is forcing him to choose BL because of the marauders. Honestly when it came down to the last engagement in that game it didnt really matter how well Taeja split because of how effective the ghosts and marauders were. I think this is a great replay... I honestly think Taeja could of done without the vikings because honestly when it came down to it the vikings weren't even a factor in the game.
This is a little thing that I love which I believe more people should do: sending 2 to 3 marauders ahead of the army either 1. kill of creep tumors or 2. kill infestors or forcing the infestors to waste energy.
Note that Taeja didn't really have to drop a lot to get damage done. I would much rather see quality of drops (scan beforehand where you want to drop) rather than quantity and when you can balance that I think you are unbeatable.
Also note the mobility and engagements in that game. Every single one was "I am here with a purpose and once I am done with that purpose I am leaving." There was no room for lings to attack his army because his army is already soo mobile. So when many Terrans unseige the zerg will normally attack and crush that army with little to no losses because the mobility and the cost of tanks force you to engage or you don't engage and you lose all your tanks.
Great Reply!
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On December 05 2012 06:19 mau5mat wrote:
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts?
I already think Bio play is more efficient than marine tank. Tanks in my mind are only good for defense of the base against zerg. Because honestly when you look at most siege tank engagements 9/10 an infestor throws a beach ball that already soaks up 95% of your tank fire and by the next shot they are either attacking your army or hitting infestors when you target them. I just think tanks are a waste and considering the build time + upgrades + cost = not really worth it.
In regards to the new patch. I think ghosts will be the new tank because emp now out ranges fungal. Even though fungal is instant and emp is not. I still think tanks are still useless for the fact that it would still take 2 siege shots to kill a infested terran and I think its more of a wake up call for bio to be used because of emp range. Cut out tanks and you have more money for upgrades, and easier transition of tech with the excess gas.
Also it would be a wake up call to zergs to stop being so greedy. Previously, what was terrans only timing push? +2/+2 with +1 vehicle weapons and since ever zerg knows the timing of that it makes the push even more inefficient because they know the time to build units. I think bio gives way to put pressure on immediately and when done properly will create a much more exciting game because honestly no one likes watching the current meta unless the terran somehow severely outplays the zerg.
Thanks for the reply!
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I don't know if any of you guys have a gomtv subscription but I would also look at game 2 where Gumiho dismantles Parting... Another good watch.
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Thanks for sharing this, didn't know abut this, but great to see gumiho doing great (dismantling parting! and beating Life) and using MMMG before the patch, which should help this style even more now :D
Haven't seen ghosts used in TvZ for a long time now (to the point where they nuke harass)
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To the OP, it is, of course, a viable build, but not for most people's mechanics. I, for one, am sure I won't be able to micro my army in the same way he did in all engagements, and as a consequence will lose everything. So, to me, a high masters ex gm terran, the strategy is semi viable as it heavily relies on me not making any micro mistakes, for the whole game.
Besides, the game was very situational. If Life had done more spine, spore (he was floating a lot of minerals at a certain point), Gumiho would have not been able to execute his drops and more probably would have lost the game.
So basically, in my opinion what happened was Gumiho played almost close to perfectly the whole game and Life did many mechanical and tactical errors. So, in a sense, it is a viable strategy if you expect you would be making no mistakes and your zerg opponent will be making some big mistakes.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On December 05 2012 06:47 lamiller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:19 mau5mat wrote:
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts? I already think Bio play is more efficient than marine tank. Tanks in my mind are only good for defense of the base against zerg. Because honestly when you look at most siege tank engagements 9/10 an infestor throws a beach ball that already soaks up 95% of your tank fire and by the next shot they are either attacking your army or hitting infestors when you target them. I just think tanks are a waste and considering the build time + upgrades + cost = not really worth it. In regards to the new patch. I think ghosts will be the new tank because emp now out ranges fungal. Even though fungal is instant and emp is not. I still think tanks are still useless for the fact that it would still take 2 siege shots to kill a infested terran and I think its more of a wake up call for bio to be used because of emp range. Cut out tanks and you have more money for upgrades, and easier transition of tech with the excess gas. Also it would be a wake up call to zergs to stop being so greedy. Previously, what was terrans only timing push? +2/+2 with +1 vehicle weapons and since ever zerg knows the timing of that it makes the push even more inefficient because they know the time to build units. I think bio gives way to put pressure on immediately and when done properly will create a much more exciting game because honestly no one likes watching the current meta unless the terran somehow severely outplays the zerg. Thanks for the reply!
Will it not be a more situational thing depending on map, for example? I could see Bio-tank still being used, but with a small handful of ghosts, maybe 6 or so, for EMP/the threat of nuke harass/snipe? Tanks to me just seem to control space too well to be completely disregarded.
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On December 05 2012 07:16 madespecifically wrote:
To the OP, it is, of course, a viable build, but not for most people's mechanics. I, for one, am sure I won't be able to micro my army in the same way he did in all engagements, and as a consequence will lose everything. So, to me, a high masters ex gm terran, the strategy is semi viable as it heavily relies on me not making any micro mistakes, for the whole game.
Besides, the game was very situational. If Life had done more spine, spore (he was floating a lot of minerals at a certain point), Gumiho would have not been able to execute his drops and more probably would have lost the game.
So basically, in my opinion what happened was Gumiho played almost close to perfectly the whole game and Life did many mechanical and tactical errors. So, in a sense, it is a viable strategy if you expect you would be making no mistakes and your zerg opponent will be making some big mistakes.
I agree with you about life making big errors, but I also believe that it was not caused by lifes mechanics but it was because of the pressure and APM that Gumiho put into executing the build which by in large forces Life to deal with defending earlier than expected. When Life has to focus his APM towards defending he then has a weakness to where he is not. I know I wouldnt be able to execute the game that he had because he did it to a perfect 'T' but there are ways this can be just as effective to win you the game.
I'm in no way suggesting that everyone needs to execute this build exactly with as much APM as gumiho did. But what i am suggesting is that this be taken as a legitimate strategy and a new standard with new builds that can become extremely effective.
Could you tell me situations in which this wouldn't be a viable option over marine tank? I'm not trying to put you down I just want a good discussion about this topic.
Also there were a lot of times in that game where life got fungals off that were really good but because of what Gumiho was doing he made the game for himself a lot easier.
I dont think marine tank viking is the solution by any means to BL infestor because
1. Even if you do kill all the BL he has the option of going ultras which then leaves seige tanks useless and vikings
2. vikings are way to fragile
3. Tanks unseige anyway when BL come into the field.
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On December 05 2012 07:26 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:47 lamiller wrote:On December 05 2012 06:19 mau5mat wrote:
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts? I already think Bio play is more efficient than marine tank. Tanks in my mind are only good for defense of the base against zerg. Because honestly when you look at most siege tank engagements 9/10 an infestor throws a beach ball that already soaks up 95% of your tank fire and by the next shot they are either attacking your army or hitting infestors when you target them. I just think tanks are a waste and considering the build time + upgrades + cost = not really worth it. In regards to the new patch. I think ghosts will be the new tank because emp now out ranges fungal. Even though fungal is instant and emp is not. I still think tanks are still useless for the fact that it would still take 2 siege shots to kill a infested terran and I think its more of a wake up call for bio to be used because of emp range. Cut out tanks and you have more money for upgrades, and easier transition of tech with the excess gas. Also it would be a wake up call to zergs to stop being so greedy. Previously, what was terrans only timing push? +2/+2 with +1 vehicle weapons and since ever zerg knows the timing of that it makes the push even more inefficient because they know the time to build units. I think bio gives way to put pressure on immediately and when done properly will create a much more exciting game because honestly no one likes watching the current meta unless the terran somehow severely outplays the zerg. Thanks for the reply! Will it not be a more situational thing depending on map, for example? I could see Bio-tank still being used, but with a small handful of ghosts, maybe 6 or so, for EMP/the threat of nuke harass/snipe? Tanks to me just seem to control space too well to be completely disregarded.
Yes absolutely. When you say Bio tank you mean Marine and Marauder Tank, right? If that is the case then adding on ghosts will be the problem or you will have to cut something out like the marauder which are crucial to the build. Because if you are making tanks that means you have at least 2 facts producing tanks plus making medivacs/vikings plus marauder/ghost plus all the upgrades necessary, that doesn't seem that great because your going to be laking in other areas. If you were to make ghosts then your seige tank or viking/medivac production would go down or upgrades. I dont know it tough to say honestly.
Other option, you meant marine tank ghosts which in that case is decently viable... My problem with tanks is that they are rendered useless when BL hit the field because they just become a waste in supply. But I am sure you can make it work. If you could provide an example where marine tank ghost and viking work well then please share!
Thanks for the reply!
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With the current patch, yes. Infestors have been nerfed. Now EMP range > Fungal range.... Therefore, it should be a matter of the better player to do its job.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On December 05 2012 07:51 lamiller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 07:26 mau5mat wrote:On December 05 2012 06:47 lamiller wrote:On December 05 2012 06:19 mau5mat wrote:
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts? I already think Bio play is more efficient than marine tank. Tanks in my mind are only good for defense of the base against zerg. Because honestly when you look at most siege tank engagements 9/10 an infestor throws a beach ball that already soaks up 95% of your tank fire and by the next shot they are either attacking your army or hitting infestors when you target them. I just think tanks are a waste and considering the build time + upgrades + cost = not really worth it. In regards to the new patch. I think ghosts will be the new tank because emp now out ranges fungal. Even though fungal is instant and emp is not. I still think tanks are still useless for the fact that it would still take 2 siege shots to kill a infested terran and I think its more of a wake up call for bio to be used because of emp range. Cut out tanks and you have more money for upgrades, and easier transition of tech with the excess gas. Also it would be a wake up call to zergs to stop being so greedy. Previously, what was terrans only timing push? +2/+2 with +1 vehicle weapons and since ever zerg knows the timing of that it makes the push even more inefficient because they know the time to build units. I think bio gives way to put pressure on immediately and when done properly will create a much more exciting game because honestly no one likes watching the current meta unless the terran somehow severely outplays the zerg. Thanks for the reply! Will it not be a more situational thing depending on map, for example? I could see Bio-tank still being used, but with a small handful of ghosts, maybe 6 or so, for EMP/the threat of nuke harass/snipe? Tanks to me just seem to control space too well to be completely disregarded. Yes absolutely. When you say Bio tank you mean Marine and Marauder Tank, right? If that is the case then adding on ghosts will be the problem or you will have to cut something out like the marauder which are crucial to the build. Because if you are making tanks that means you have at least 2 facts producing tanks plus making medivacs/vikings plus marauder/ghost plus all the upgrades necessary, that doesn't seem that great because your going to be laking in other areas. If you were to make ghosts then your seige tank or viking/medivac production would go down or upgrades. I dont know it tough to say honestly. Other option, you meant marine tank ghosts which in that case is decently viable... My problem with tanks is that they are rendered useless when BL hit the field because they just become a waste in supply. But I am sure you can make it work. If you could provide an example where marine tank ghost and viking work well then please share! Thanks for the reply!
You could possibly make bare minimum tanks off of 1 factory and keep the rest of the gas for Ghosts? Like minimum tank number, around 4-5 maybe just to zone infestors and provide decent AoE?
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the only problem about this style is that I don't know how you're going to hold off mass ling+bane (such as muta ling bane timings, etc)
maybe get like max 3 (-5) tanks, and then go for this composition?
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Canada66 Posts
this only worked because life didn't take a third at 5:30-6:00(which currently cannot be punished), meaning he had less gas for infestors.
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On December 05 2012 08:35 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 07:51 lamiller wrote:On December 05 2012 07:26 mau5mat wrote:On December 05 2012 06:47 lamiller wrote:On December 05 2012 06:19 mau5mat wrote:
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts? I already think Bio play is more efficient than marine tank. Tanks in my mind are only good for defense of the base against zerg. Because honestly when you look at most siege tank engagements 9/10 an infestor throws a beach ball that already soaks up 95% of your tank fire and by the next shot they are either attacking your army or hitting infestors when you target them. I just think tanks are a waste and considering the build time + upgrades + cost = not really worth it. In regards to the new patch. I think ghosts will be the new tank because emp now out ranges fungal. Even though fungal is instant and emp is not. I still think tanks are still useless for the fact that it would still take 2 siege shots to kill a infested terran and I think its more of a wake up call for bio to be used because of emp range. Cut out tanks and you have more money for upgrades, and easier transition of tech with the excess gas. Also it would be a wake up call to zergs to stop being so greedy. Previously, what was terrans only timing push? +2/+2 with +1 vehicle weapons and since ever zerg knows the timing of that it makes the push even more inefficient because they know the time to build units. I think bio gives way to put pressure on immediately and when done properly will create a much more exciting game because honestly no one likes watching the current meta unless the terran somehow severely outplays the zerg. Thanks for the reply! Will it not be a more situational thing depending on map, for example? I could see Bio-tank still being used, but with a small handful of ghosts, maybe 6 or so, for EMP/the threat of nuke harass/snipe? Tanks to me just seem to control space too well to be completely disregarded. Yes absolutely. When you say Bio tank you mean Marine and Marauder Tank, right? If that is the case then adding on ghosts will be the problem or you will have to cut something out like the marauder which are crucial to the build. Because if you are making tanks that means you have at least 2 facts producing tanks plus making medivacs/vikings plus marauder/ghost plus all the upgrades necessary, that doesn't seem that great because your going to be laking in other areas. If you were to make ghosts then your seige tank or viking/medivac production would go down or upgrades. I dont know it tough to say honestly. Other option, you meant marine tank ghosts which in that case is decently viable... My problem with tanks is that they are rendered useless when BL hit the field because they just become a waste in supply. But I am sure you can make it work. If you could provide an example where marine tank ghost and viking work well then please share! Thanks for the reply! You could possibly make bare minimum tanks off of 1 factory and keep the rest of the gas for Ghosts? Like minimum tank number, around 4-5 maybe just to zone infestors and provide decent AoE?
Yeah I think could be possible but I don't know if you could get a sufficient amount of tanks to be effective by a certain timing. Also what would you have to delay to make tanks/what upgrade would be delayed ? I think it coul be possible to work tanks in though!
Thanks!
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On December 05 2012 08:39 zhurai wrote:
the only problem about this style is that I don't know how you're going to hold off mass ling+bane (such as muta ling bane timings, etc)
maybe get like max 3 (-5) tanks, and then go for this composition?
Tanks maybe necessary if they are going to go muta I guess but I think you can lead with your marauders in your army and have the marauders soak up some of the baneling damage so the marines can take care of the lings.
Also consider the amount of other units that would be in your army instead of the tanks. So we can assume that 5 tanks that is 15 supply and thus either giving 7 marauders and 1 marine or just 15 marines... So I think the added dps is good that might be able to hold it off.
I think it could be good to get a low amount of tanks, but we need to consider how early or late the tanks are going to come out and what is going to have be delayed because of tanks?
Thanks for the post!
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On December 05 2012 08:57 vayuu wrote:
this only worked because life didn't take a third at 5:30-6:00(which currently cannot be punished), meaning he had less gas for infestors.
Well isnt muta ling bane gas heavy? and you see that worked off of 2 base all the time. Well I think this build gives way for a lot of pressure and it may confuse the opponent on what you are doing. I think because Life wasn't expecting this build he played a lot more defensively... I think the build hits optimal effective at the 18 min which is when BL infestor hits so I just think it is an effective way for the patch zergs to go back on the decline.
Even with the delayed 3rd he had infestors at 9 min and had about 8 or 9 of them and then moved up to 13 to 15. So I don't know if that means the build didn't work because he didn't have a 3rd earlier.
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EPT
