EPT[D] TvZ Gumiho vs Life MMMG build - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
| ||
|
lamiller
United States92 Posts
On December 05 2012 09:32 mau5mat wrote: Sadly I also don't think this would be viable for anyone else other than Code A/S level Terrans to try, it is just too demanding mechanically. I dont think you need to view it as my mechanics can keep up with this.. I think its possible to do minimal but effective drops rather than having to drop all the time. So i think it fits into any league that you are in. 9/10 the people you play are going to be roughly the same skill level as you so their multitasking is just as good as your multitasking making the build still viable | ||
|
NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
| ||
|
imre
France9263 Posts
On December 05 2012 10:03 NKexquisite wrote: This is a great VOD to watch in terms of a general guideline for possibly dealing with Infestors, but my god... Gumiho outplays Life for 20 minutes and still barely wins... Gumiho's play was full of small errors too because he was stretching so hard is multitask, he hadn't enough to babysit really well his drops and some of his splits were kinda bad. He was never in real danger of losing toon which is exceptionnal vZ. | ||
|
NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
On December 05 2012 10:32 sAsImre wrote: Gumiho's play was full of small errors too because he was stretching so hard is multitask, he hadn't enough to babysit really well his drops and some of his splits were kinda bad. He was never in real danger of losing toon which is exceptionnal vZ. I think you have it backwards. His play wasn't sloppy b/c he didn't babysit his drops enough, his play was good b/c he didn't sit there any babysit his drops. 3 different drops are better than sitting there targeting down some drones and a queen in one drop. Fact is Gumiho killed how many hatcheries? 5-6? Kept Zerg on basically 4 bases all game? It was still that close? If the last battle at Gumiho's 5th base goes Life's way, Life probably wins that game. | ||
|
vayuu
Canada66 Posts
Well isnt muta ling bane gas heavy? and you see that worked off of 2 base all the time. Well I think this build gives way for a lot of pressure and it may confuse the opponent on what you are doing. I think because Life wasn't expecting this build he played a lot more defensively... I think the build hits optimal effective at the 18 min which is when BL infestor hits so I just think it is an effective way for the patch zergs to go back on the decline. Even with the delayed 3rd he had infestors at 9 min and had about 8 or 9 of them and then moved up to 13 to 15. So I don't know if that means the build didn't work because he didn't have a 3rd earlier. Muta ling bane, is inferior to code s marine tank micro. When muta currently work, it is only because terrans are overcompensating for the infestor (which they have to) More importantly life is only at consistently behind in supply before the attack begins, this almost never happens. The late third also leads to a late 4th. All of this adds up to brood lords not out until 18 minutes, which is far too late considering how much a zerg can get away with greed in the midgame. Yes life made 14 infestors(the only units he made that cost gas), but he is still completely gas starved only making infestors and teching/upgrades. Should life have just went with the deny the fourth method along with better creep, i don't think pure bio is viable as long as life hits his fungals with earlier broodlords. | ||
|
Chronos.
United States805 Posts
| ||
|
imre
France9263 Posts
On December 05 2012 10:52 NKexquisite wrote: I think you have it backwards. His play wasn't sloppy b/c he didn't babysit his drops enough, his play was good b/c he didn't sit there any babysit his drops. 3 different drops are better than sitting there targeting down some drones and a queen in one drop. Fact is Gumiho killed how many hatcheries? 5-6? Kept Zerg on basically 4 bases all game? It was still that close? If the last battle at Gumiho's 5th base goes Life's way, Life probably wins that game. ideally you'd want to babysit your drops and microing your army while macroing back at home. It might be possible or not but Gumiho's drop play was good more because it fucked up Life multitask and micro than for its sheer cost-efficiency. And Gumi made way bigger mistakes than targetting: his drops paths, where he dropped, not microing at all etc... still it was worth it imo because it fucked up life harder than it fucked up himself. How many drops did he lose that he could have saved? One of the 1st bw daily of day9 is about tvp drop play on outlier where the T goes crazy (4 dropship) but doesn't deal enough while it was really impressive and lose because of it. If Gumi manages to pull the samething with a slightly better drop micro, which I think is the main drawback of his beautiful game, he'd just destroy the Z because it'll be both insanely efficient and it'll fuck up the Z. | ||
|
scarper65
1560 Posts
| ||
|
Hiea
Denmark1538 Posts
Greedy opening by GuMiho, quick 3CC Tech opening by Life, 2base infestor. Okay, this turns out kinda okay, but GuMiho keeps even supply with Life, which is not supposed to happen. Life goes 100% ling/infestor, an outdated style as much zergs get banelings aswell, he did get banelings eventually, but even towards the end of the game baneling speed had not finished yet GuMiho never really built vikings in any numbers, in the final engagement Life had 15 corrupters hovering in the air, doing absolutely nothing, this could turn into 8 more broodlords. I think this is a viable strategy, but this game is not really a good example, its just GuMiho outplaying and outmultitasking Life greatly, while having Life making stupid decisions, like no banelings vs bio (no tanks) and having 15 corrupters chill in the air. | ||
|
c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On December 05 2012 09:32 mau5mat wrote: Sadly I also don't think this would be viable for anyone else other than Code A/S level Terrans to try, it is just too demanding mechanically. not at all also sc2 in general doesn't need THAT many APMs for you to be a strong player ive done this for a while in tvz, I used to have some good reps but they've all been lost TT> | ||
|
Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
It basically seems like the Ghosts are just replacing Tanks in a standard marine / tank / medivac composition, with the advantages of being more effective against Infestors specifically (cloak + emp / snipe), being better at harassment (with nukes + cloak) and costing less gas cost overall (uses same upgrades as bio, less gas per units), but at the cost of being extremely vulnerable to Banelings and Mutalisks with no Factory (i.e AoE) units and having much less staying power in direct engagements. Edit: Certainly not ruling it out as a strategy, probably going to test it out a bit on the ladder, but I think I'd need to see more examples of it in pro games before I'm convinced. | ||
|
mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On December 06 2012 02:04 c0sm0naut wrote: not at all also sc2 in general doesn't need THAT many APMs for you to be a strong player ive done this for a while in tvz, I used to have some good reps but they've all been lost TT> What I mean is, you would do much, much better playing a more standard TvZ 'really' well, than trying to do something like this when you don't have the mechanics to make it worthwhile. | ||
|
lamiller
United States92 Posts
On December 06 2012 03:18 Pursuit_ wrote: Watching both games, I'm not 100% sure about how viable this is. In both replays, Terran got a substantial advantage in the early game (3cc vs fast lair openings, Taeja game is an even bigger advantage) and their opponent went for extremely infestor heavy styles with no banelings. It basically seems like the Ghosts are just replacing Tanks in a standard marine / tank / medivac composition, with the advantages of being more effective against Infestors specifically (cloak + emp / snipe), being better at harassment (with nukes + cloak) and costing less gas cost overall (uses same upgrades as bio, less gas per units), but at the cost of being extremely vulnerable to Banelings and Mutalisks with no Factory (i.e AoE) units and having much less staying power in direct engagements. Edit: Certainly not ruling it out as a strategy, probably going to test it out a bit on the ladder, but I think I'd need to see more examples of it in pro games before I'm convinced. Okay so if we are talking about current engagement being 100% honest with ourselves. Most of the first tank shots in an engagement are wasted because they get soaked up by infested terran eggs and that still gives way for infestors, lings, and banes to attack your army. Im talking about pure cost efficiency... Tanks are not worth it. Tanks are lucky if they survive 5 seconds in that form of engagement... Not to mention if you are caught in a bad engagement where your on the retreat and the zerg comes at you with his zerglings and kills the tanks either way... I would much rather have the mobility and the flexibility of having more say in the engagement rather than being forced to engage. Also, arent infestors the problem? We are always complaining on how infestors are the problem well then these games should be great examples of how we can beat it. I would much rather have a zerg go muta ling bane rather than ling infestor Now with the patch it makes ghost 100% more viable then tanks. If you EMP the infestors you have enough dps in your army to take care of the lings and banes. Making splitting more possible rather than your army just sitting there and getting roasted. I dont think it vulnerable to mutalisk because tanks do not help against mutalisk. Sure it may make you more vulnerable to banes but with the amount of marauders in the composition it serves the same purpose (tanking) ability as the tanks.. Also with with this style you would be able to have more room for upgrades and not to mention if the zerg has a higher armor upgrade then you do attack it wouldnt even kill banes in one tank shot.. and not to mention siege tank has a minimal range and are completely useless unseiged. Thanks for the response! | ||
|
lamiller
United States92 Posts
On December 06 2012 04:10 mau5mat wrote: What I mean is, you would do much, much better playing a more standard TvZ 'really' well, than trying to do something like this when you don't have the mechanics to make it worthwhile. When I play, I always expect my opponent to be better than me. That means they can time engagements properly and that they are going to make engagement work strategically for them. So if that is the case then standard isnt going to cut it because when it comes down to it zerg is going to know how to react to marine tank. The zerg already knows that the Terran has one timing thats going to be effective and so anytime before then they can do whatever the heck they want. Which leads to 70-80 drones before the 10 min mark and then straight units after that. You can perform this style really well and cause the zerg to screw up his macro because you are putting on pressure and preventing them from getting their ultimate composition. Terran likes to cut corners but Zerg likes to cut corners even more so anyway we as Terrans can hinder that I think that is a success. | ||
|
lamiller
United States92 Posts
On December 06 2012 02:04 c0sm0naut wrote: not at all also sc2 in general doesn't need THAT many APMs for you to be a strong player ive done this for a while in tvz, I used to have some good reps but they've all been lost TT> I'm glad you have been doing this in TvZ! Can you tell us how engagements go and how to defend against muta ling bane? | ||
|
c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On December 06 2012 04:39 lamiller wrote: I'm glad you have been doing this in TvZ! Can you tell us how engagements go and how to defend against muta ling bane? Well I play differently in that I pretty much every game open with 2 rax poking either 11s, 12/14, or after cc first to force lings for his third base. Muta is the counter to mmm strategies, but I only find these builds challenging if I leave Zerg to macro. Normally with the tempo it's my goal to play at, he's morphing bane and lings to survive instead of thinking about harassing me. Essentially the Midgame belongs to Zerg unless they are playing their race wrong, so I like to build a lot of bunkers (like three at your third base) and scout what they're up to with a floating factory. Against Muta long bane I play really defensive unless I have some tempo advantage. If they are aggressively getting in my face and shutting down my expos, I try to counter with a small force and take out the queens/live rumors ad then as many zergling as I can when he turns back to clean it up. I'm talking about like, 1/3rd of your army. When you maneuver like this you can force him into base trading vs 2/3rds Of your army + bunkers or frantically sending units back that will take a while to completely shut down your force. Against hive tech it's actually a but easier IMO because of ghosts, and also if you are caught with your pants down you have a crap ton of rax/orbital/pf you can stay alive with. Also with no enough infestirs or banes, you can flank his army nicely and trade well that way | ||
|
lamiller
United States92 Posts
On December 06 2012 06:47 c0sm0naut wrote: Well I play differently in that I pretty much every game open with 2 rax poking either 11s, 12/14, or after cc first to force lings for his third base. Muta is the counter to mmm strategies, but I only find these builds challenging if I leave Zerg to macro. Normally with the tempo it's my goal to play at, he's morphing bane and lings to survive instead of thinking about harassing me. Essentially the Midgame belongs to Zerg unless they are playing their race wrong, so I like to build a lot of bunkers (like three at your third base) and scout what they're up to with a floating factory. Against Muta long bane I play really defensive unless I have some tempo advantage. If they are aggressively getting in my face and shutting down my expos, I try to counter with a small force and take out the queens/live rumors ad then as many zergling as I can when he turns back to clean it up. I'm talking about like, 1/3rd of your army. When you maneuver like this you can force him into base trading vs 2/3rds Of your army + bunkers or frantically sending units back that will take a while to completely shut down your force. Against hive tech it's actually a but easier IMO because of ghosts, and also if you are caught with your pants down you have a crap ton of rax/orbital/pf you can stay alive with. Also with no enough infestirs or banes, you can flank his army nicely and trade well that way So you would say this is a good strategy in the late game. Could you throw tanks into this composition for the midgame? and then just go pure mmmg in the late game? | ||
|
tuho12345
4482 Posts
| ||
|
decado90
United States480 Posts
Against Muta ling bane however, bio is pretty underwhelming without insane micro (e.g. maradaurs and marines on different hotkeys, good splits, baneling focus fire) and without the security of running back to your tanks you will lose a lot of fights. Also, you will be much more vulnerable to muta ling bane timings without tanks. Weakest thing about bio openings is that you need to open pretty greedily because you need fast double upgrades and the economy to power up to insane production or else your army will straight up lose. Just keep a close eye on GSL and Pro league. I have a very strong feeling that bio will become the standard now that the infestor has been nerfed. | ||
| ||
