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http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls3/vod/70717
This is the replay between gumiho and life, game 1 no GOMTV subscription needed  ^
Game starts at 1:42:00 or so:
http://www.twitch.tv/onemoregametv/b/341990997
This is a different game that someone also posted giving an example of minimal but effective drops and making mmmg build work. Taeja vs Miya EGMC game 3... thanks @eeChiama for the replay!
Hello TL this is my first post on here but I would like to get a legitimate discussion on using Marine marauder medivac ghost in the TvZ match up. I think we need to address real issues that plague most Terrans in this match up.
As you can see by this build. It is a 3 CC build with 2 racks before Factory which is fairly standard. Gumiho get really late hellions but I think they serve a good purpose as he is only investing into ~4 hellions. The hellions are only used for map control/scouting just like in every other game.
Important: he doesn't lose his initial hellions until infestors fungal them. So these are not expendable by any means, so he never tries to go into the base unless he was scouting for a 3rd or trying to get drones before queens/lings arrive.
Notice: He gets early stim and +1 instead of going for banshee. I believe this is important because most zergs go double evo chamber so it may seem like terran gets behind on upgrades, and it just goes downhill from there.
But back to the point of this post. Gumiho does an extreme amount of drop harass plus denial of 4th/5th throughout the entire game which was extremely beautiful to watch. Even though gumiho's army got fungaled a lot he was still able to recover because he kept denying the 4th of Life. He then got 2 ghost academies at ~16min mark which he then immediately started mobious reactor and cloak at the same time. He then used the ghosts for EMP, snipe, and offensive/defensive nukes which forced Life to back off from engaging. But while Life was out on the map with his army, gumiho just drop harassed and tried to snipe hatches/tech structures while life couldn't engage because of the nukes.
Note: Almost every drop contained 4 marauders. Not only are marauders are great for sniping tech structures they are also great at wasting fungal energy. It takes 3 Fungals to kill a marauder and with the extra range most of the time you are able to get a couple shots at a infestor if they do attempt to fungal you. Also lings take a long time without fungal to kill marauders, so its just enough time to snipe a structure (maybe not enough for a hatch) so this leaves marauder completely beast as drop harass units.
Gumiho only engages the full zerg army about once and in that engagement he loads up ghosts into a medivac and drops them relatively close to the infestors (which is risky but most players wouldnt waste a fungal on a single medivac when they could do more damage with their infestors) he then EMPs the infestors leaving 3 infestors with energy out of the 13 Life had. He then begins to use snipe a lot on the rest of the infestors. Once he was able to pick off infestors he then engaged the broodlords and those were obliterated quickly.
Note: Gumiho waited for Life to attack him. Which makes things easier for gumiho since he already has the concave and position needed to set up the best engagement possible against life's army.
Advantages of this build
Increase of mobility to exploit infestor and BL speed
Extra Gas leaving room for easy ghost Transition (plus infrastructure is already there)
Better positional battles because there are no tanks (which lead to the army retreating and then getting overrun by ling/infestor)
No Vikings (I know it makes sense to make vikings since BL cant shoot at them but Vikings decrease mobility of army plus requires magic boxing so they all dont get horribly fungaled, not to mention its a hell of a lot easier to make 10 corrupters then 10 vikings)
Marauder drops are extremely effective because they do well against spines, infestors, and lings when positioned properly. (Remember you are not attacking the lings you are attack tech structures)
Makes the opponent use their APM for defending and not attacking, which leads to less creep spread and other things.
Keeps a bit of army at home so it defends against ling run-by's which IMO there were very few considering who he was playing.
NO ZERG in their right mind will do a tech switch to Ultras when you already have marauders on the field.
Marauders have more health which IMO is very undervalued (3 Fungals instead of 2 on marines, plus banes are less effective)
Disadvantages of this build
APM intensive
Very vulnerable to attack in early game
Not sure how it would do against Muta/ling/bane (because of how mineral intensive it is) hard to put up turrets???
So, I guess what I'm trying to ask is: Do you think this is a viable strategy? I know Ghosts have been hit with the nerf bat but I still believe they can be effective. Discussion would be really nice. Or ways this strategy could be improved?
I wouldn't post this if I didn't think it were viable, but I'm sick and tired of watching games were the Terran gets crapped on because of either vikings or unseige of tanks.
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United States8476 Posts
Good post, but please look at the strategy forum guidelines and tag properly next time ^^.
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Great read, I've been meaning to implement bio+ghost on TvZ, but lacked the example games to do it. Will watch this game asap.
I think that the great advantage of bio is that the mobility lets you get really agressive and thus deny or delay the zerg's 4th (which is crucial) and maybe hive tech.
Taeja vs Miya from Liquid vs Slayers on EGMC (November 22) Game 3 on Ohana exemplifies the importance of denying the 4th I think. Even tho Taeja opened with shenanigans and got ghosts really late on the game he did still play bio and maybe we can get a thing or two from this game!
Game starts at 1:42:00 or so:
http://www.twitch.tv/onemoregametv/b/341990997
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts?
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I completely agree with you. Ohana is a very hard map to drop on and because its a very thing map but I still think the build still applies. When you are constantly putting on aggression on the zerg they are forced to make units. Also taeja made Miya in this game split up his infestors to deal with the drops. The drops are great for getting rid of not only infestor energy but sniping tech structures. Taeja does a great job at sniping +3 armor? Which is a freaking huge deal and not to mention Taeja is forcing him to choose BL because of the marauders. Honestly when it came down to the last engagement in that game it didnt really matter how well Taeja split because of how effective the ghosts and marauders were. I think this is a great replay... I honestly think Taeja could of done without the vikings because honestly when it came down to it the vikings weren't even a factor in the game.
This is a little thing that I love which I believe more people should do: sending 2 to 3 marauders ahead of the army either 1. kill of creep tumors or 2. kill infestors or forcing the infestors to waste energy.
Note that Taeja didn't really have to drop a lot to get damage done. I would much rather see quality of drops (scan beforehand where you want to drop) rather than quantity and when you can balance that I think you are unbeatable.
Also note the mobility and engagements in that game. Every single one was "I am here with a purpose and once I am done with that purpose I am leaving." There was no room for lings to attack his army because his army is already soo mobile. So when many Terrans unseige the zerg will normally attack and crush that army with little to no losses because the mobility and the cost of tanks force you to engage or you don't engage and you lose all your tanks.
Great Reply!
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On December 05 2012 06:19 mau5mat wrote:
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts?
I already think Bio play is more efficient than marine tank. Tanks in my mind are only good for defense of the base against zerg. Because honestly when you look at most siege tank engagements 9/10 an infestor throws a beach ball that already soaks up 95% of your tank fire and by the next shot they are either attacking your army or hitting infestors when you target them. I just think tanks are a waste and considering the build time + upgrades + cost = not really worth it.
In regards to the new patch. I think ghosts will be the new tank because emp now out ranges fungal. Even though fungal is instant and emp is not. I still think tanks are still useless for the fact that it would still take 2 siege shots to kill a infested terran and I think its more of a wake up call for bio to be used because of emp range. Cut out tanks and you have more money for upgrades, and easier transition of tech with the excess gas.
Also it would be a wake up call to zergs to stop being so greedy. Previously, what was terrans only timing push? +2/+2 with +1 vehicle weapons and since ever zerg knows the timing of that it makes the push even more inefficient because they know the time to build units. I think bio gives way to put pressure on immediately and when done properly will create a much more exciting game because honestly no one likes watching the current meta unless the terran somehow severely outplays the zerg.
Thanks for the reply!
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I don't know if any of you guys have a gomtv subscription but I would also look at game 2 where Gumiho dismantles Parting... Another good watch.
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Thanks for sharing this, didn't know abut this, but great to see gumiho doing great (dismantling parting! and beating Life) and using MMMG before the patch, which should help this style even more now :D
Haven't seen ghosts used in TvZ for a long time now (to the point where they nuke harass)
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To the OP, it is, of course, a viable build, but not for most people's mechanics. I, for one, am sure I won't be able to micro my army in the same way he did in all engagements, and as a consequence will lose everything. So, to me, a high masters ex gm terran, the strategy is semi viable as it heavily relies on me not making any micro mistakes, for the whole game.
Besides, the game was very situational. If Life had done more spine, spore (he was floating a lot of minerals at a certain point), Gumiho would have not been able to execute his drops and more probably would have lost the game.
So basically, in my opinion what happened was Gumiho played almost close to perfectly the whole game and Life did many mechanical and tactical errors. So, in a sense, it is a viable strategy if you expect you would be making no mistakes and your zerg opponent will be making some big mistakes.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On December 05 2012 06:47 lamiller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:19 mau5mat wrote:
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts? I already think Bio play is more efficient than marine tank. Tanks in my mind are only good for defense of the base against zerg. Because honestly when you look at most siege tank engagements 9/10 an infestor throws a beach ball that already soaks up 95% of your tank fire and by the next shot they are either attacking your army or hitting infestors when you target them. I just think tanks are a waste and considering the build time + upgrades + cost = not really worth it. In regards to the new patch. I think ghosts will be the new tank because emp now out ranges fungal. Even though fungal is instant and emp is not. I still think tanks are still useless for the fact that it would still take 2 siege shots to kill a infested terran and I think its more of a wake up call for bio to be used because of emp range. Cut out tanks and you have more money for upgrades, and easier transition of tech with the excess gas. Also it would be a wake up call to zergs to stop being so greedy. Previously, what was terrans only timing push? +2/+2 with +1 vehicle weapons and since ever zerg knows the timing of that it makes the push even more inefficient because they know the time to build units. I think bio gives way to put pressure on immediately and when done properly will create a much more exciting game because honestly no one likes watching the current meta unless the terran somehow severely outplays the zerg. Thanks for the reply!
Will it not be a more situational thing depending on map, for example? I could see Bio-tank still being used, but with a small handful of ghosts, maybe 6 or so, for EMP/the threat of nuke harass/snipe? Tanks to me just seem to control space too well to be completely disregarded.
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On December 05 2012 07:16 madespecifically wrote:
To the OP, it is, of course, a viable build, but not for most people's mechanics. I, for one, am sure I won't be able to micro my army in the same way he did in all engagements, and as a consequence will lose everything. So, to me, a high masters ex gm terran, the strategy is semi viable as it heavily relies on me not making any micro mistakes, for the whole game.
Besides, the game was very situational. If Life had done more spine, spore (he was floating a lot of minerals at a certain point), Gumiho would have not been able to execute his drops and more probably would have lost the game.
So basically, in my opinion what happened was Gumiho played almost close to perfectly the whole game and Life did many mechanical and tactical errors. So, in a sense, it is a viable strategy if you expect you would be making no mistakes and your zerg opponent will be making some big mistakes.
I agree with you about life making big errors, but I also believe that it was not caused by lifes mechanics but it was because of the pressure and APM that Gumiho put into executing the build which by in large forces Life to deal with defending earlier than expected. When Life has to focus his APM towards defending he then has a weakness to where he is not. I know I wouldnt be able to execute the game that he had because he did it to a perfect 'T' but there are ways this can be just as effective to win you the game.
I'm in no way suggesting that everyone needs to execute this build exactly with as much APM as gumiho did. But what i am suggesting is that this be taken as a legitimate strategy and a new standard with new builds that can become extremely effective.
Could you tell me situations in which this wouldn't be a viable option over marine tank? I'm not trying to put you down I just want a good discussion about this topic.
Also there were a lot of times in that game where life got fungals off that were really good but because of what Gumiho was doing he made the game for himself a lot easier.
I dont think marine tank viking is the solution by any means to BL infestor because
1. Even if you do kill all the BL he has the option of going ultras which then leaves seige tanks useless and vikings
2. vikings are way to fragile
3. Tanks unseige anyway when BL come into the field.
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On December 05 2012 07:26 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:47 lamiller wrote:On December 05 2012 06:19 mau5mat wrote:
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts? I already think Bio play is more efficient than marine tank. Tanks in my mind are only good for defense of the base against zerg. Because honestly when you look at most siege tank engagements 9/10 an infestor throws a beach ball that already soaks up 95% of your tank fire and by the next shot they are either attacking your army or hitting infestors when you target them. I just think tanks are a waste and considering the build time + upgrades + cost = not really worth it. In regards to the new patch. I think ghosts will be the new tank because emp now out ranges fungal. Even though fungal is instant and emp is not. I still think tanks are still useless for the fact that it would still take 2 siege shots to kill a infested terran and I think its more of a wake up call for bio to be used because of emp range. Cut out tanks and you have more money for upgrades, and easier transition of tech with the excess gas. Also it would be a wake up call to zergs to stop being so greedy. Previously, what was terrans only timing push? +2/+2 with +1 vehicle weapons and since ever zerg knows the timing of that it makes the push even more inefficient because they know the time to build units. I think bio gives way to put pressure on immediately and when done properly will create a much more exciting game because honestly no one likes watching the current meta unless the terran somehow severely outplays the zerg. Thanks for the reply! Will it not be a more situational thing depending on map, for example? I could see Bio-tank still being used, but with a small handful of ghosts, maybe 6 or so, for EMP/the threat of nuke harass/snipe? Tanks to me just seem to control space too well to be completely disregarded.
Yes absolutely. When you say Bio tank you mean Marine and Marauder Tank, right? If that is the case then adding on ghosts will be the problem or you will have to cut something out like the marauder which are crucial to the build. Because if you are making tanks that means you have at least 2 facts producing tanks plus making medivacs/vikings plus marauder/ghost plus all the upgrades necessary, that doesn't seem that great because your going to be laking in other areas. If you were to make ghosts then your seige tank or viking/medivac production would go down or upgrades. I dont know it tough to say honestly.
Other option, you meant marine tank ghosts which in that case is decently viable... My problem with tanks is that they are rendered useless when BL hit the field because they just become a waste in supply. But I am sure you can make it work. If you could provide an example where marine tank ghost and viking work well then please share!
Thanks for the reply!
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With the current patch, yes. Infestors have been nerfed. Now EMP range > Fungal range.... Therefore, it should be a matter of the better player to do its job.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On December 05 2012 07:51 lamiller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 07:26 mau5mat wrote:On December 05 2012 06:47 lamiller wrote:On December 05 2012 06:19 mau5mat wrote:
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts? I already think Bio play is more efficient than marine tank. Tanks in my mind are only good for defense of the base against zerg. Because honestly when you look at most siege tank engagements 9/10 an infestor throws a beach ball that already soaks up 95% of your tank fire and by the next shot they are either attacking your army or hitting infestors when you target them. I just think tanks are a waste and considering the build time + upgrades + cost = not really worth it. In regards to the new patch. I think ghosts will be the new tank because emp now out ranges fungal. Even though fungal is instant and emp is not. I still think tanks are still useless for the fact that it would still take 2 siege shots to kill a infested terran and I think its more of a wake up call for bio to be used because of emp range. Cut out tanks and you have more money for upgrades, and easier transition of tech with the excess gas. Also it would be a wake up call to zergs to stop being so greedy. Previously, what was terrans only timing push? +2/+2 with +1 vehicle weapons and since ever zerg knows the timing of that it makes the push even more inefficient because they know the time to build units. I think bio gives way to put pressure on immediately and when done properly will create a much more exciting game because honestly no one likes watching the current meta unless the terran somehow severely outplays the zerg. Thanks for the reply! Will it not be a more situational thing depending on map, for example? I could see Bio-tank still being used, but with a small handful of ghosts, maybe 6 or so, for EMP/the threat of nuke harass/snipe? Tanks to me just seem to control space too well to be completely disregarded. Yes absolutely. When you say Bio tank you mean Marine and Marauder Tank, right? If that is the case then adding on ghosts will be the problem or you will have to cut something out like the marauder which are crucial to the build. Because if you are making tanks that means you have at least 2 facts producing tanks plus making medivacs/vikings plus marauder/ghost plus all the upgrades necessary, that doesn't seem that great because your going to be laking in other areas. If you were to make ghosts then your seige tank or viking/medivac production would go down or upgrades. I dont know it tough to say honestly. Other option, you meant marine tank ghosts which in that case is decently viable... My problem with tanks is that they are rendered useless when BL hit the field because they just become a waste in supply. But I am sure you can make it work. If you could provide an example where marine tank ghost and viking work well then please share! Thanks for the reply!
You could possibly make bare minimum tanks off of 1 factory and keep the rest of the gas for Ghosts? Like minimum tank number, around 4-5 maybe just to zone infestors and provide decent AoE?
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the only problem about this style is that I don't know how you're going to hold off mass ling+bane (such as muta ling bane timings, etc)
maybe get like max 3 (-5) tanks, and then go for this composition?
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this only worked because life didn't take a third at 5:30-6:00(which currently cannot be punished), meaning he had less gas for infestors.
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On December 05 2012 08:35 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 07:51 lamiller wrote:On December 05 2012 07:26 mau5mat wrote:On December 05 2012 06:47 lamiller wrote:On December 05 2012 06:19 mau5mat wrote:
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts? I already think Bio play is more efficient than marine tank. Tanks in my mind are only good for defense of the base against zerg. Because honestly when you look at most siege tank engagements 9/10 an infestor throws a beach ball that already soaks up 95% of your tank fire and by the next shot they are either attacking your army or hitting infestors when you target them. I just think tanks are a waste and considering the build time + upgrades + cost = not really worth it. In regards to the new patch. I think ghosts will be the new tank because emp now out ranges fungal. Even though fungal is instant and emp is not. I still think tanks are still useless for the fact that it would still take 2 siege shots to kill a infested terran and I think its more of a wake up call for bio to be used because of emp range. Cut out tanks and you have more money for upgrades, and easier transition of tech with the excess gas. Also it would be a wake up call to zergs to stop being so greedy. Previously, what was terrans only timing push? +2/+2 with +1 vehicle weapons and since ever zerg knows the timing of that it makes the push even more inefficient because they know the time to build units. I think bio gives way to put pressure on immediately and when done properly will create a much more exciting game because honestly no one likes watching the current meta unless the terran somehow severely outplays the zerg. Thanks for the reply! Will it not be a more situational thing depending on map, for example? I could see Bio-tank still being used, but with a small handful of ghosts, maybe 6 or so, for EMP/the threat of nuke harass/snipe? Tanks to me just seem to control space too well to be completely disregarded. Yes absolutely. When you say Bio tank you mean Marine and Marauder Tank, right? If that is the case then adding on ghosts will be the problem or you will have to cut something out like the marauder which are crucial to the build. Because if you are making tanks that means you have at least 2 facts producing tanks plus making medivacs/vikings plus marauder/ghost plus all the upgrades necessary, that doesn't seem that great because your going to be laking in other areas. If you were to make ghosts then your seige tank or viking/medivac production would go down or upgrades. I dont know it tough to say honestly. Other option, you meant marine tank ghosts which in that case is decently viable... My problem with tanks is that they are rendered useless when BL hit the field because they just become a waste in supply. But I am sure you can make it work. If you could provide an example where marine tank ghost and viking work well then please share! Thanks for the reply! You could possibly make bare minimum tanks off of 1 factory and keep the rest of the gas for Ghosts? Like minimum tank number, around 4-5 maybe just to zone infestors and provide decent AoE?
Yeah I think could be possible but I don't know if you could get a sufficient amount of tanks to be effective by a certain timing. Also what would you have to delay to make tanks/what upgrade would be delayed ? I think it coul be possible to work tanks in though!
Thanks!
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On December 05 2012 08:39 zhurai wrote:
the only problem about this style is that I don't know how you're going to hold off mass ling+bane (such as muta ling bane timings, etc)
maybe get like max 3 (-5) tanks, and then go for this composition?
Tanks maybe necessary if they are going to go muta I guess but I think you can lead with your marauders in your army and have the marauders soak up some of the baneling damage so the marines can take care of the lings.
Also consider the amount of other units that would be in your army instead of the tanks. So we can assume that 5 tanks that is 15 supply and thus either giving 7 marauders and 1 marine or just 15 marines... So I think the added dps is good that might be able to hold it off.
I think it could be good to get a low amount of tanks, but we need to consider how early or late the tanks are going to come out and what is going to have be delayed because of tanks?
Thanks for the post!
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On December 05 2012 08:57 vayuu wrote:
this only worked because life didn't take a third at 5:30-6:00(which currently cannot be punished), meaning he had less gas for infestors.
Well isnt muta ling bane gas heavy? and you see that worked off of 2 base all the time. Well I think this build gives way for a lot of pressure and it may confuse the opponent on what you are doing. I think because Life wasn't expecting this build he played a lot more defensively... I think the build hits optimal effective at the 18 min which is when BL infestor hits so I just think it is an effective way for the patch zergs to go back on the decline.
Even with the delayed 3rd he had infestors at 9 min and had about 8 or 9 of them and then moved up to 13 to 15. So I don't know if that means the build didn't work because he didn't have a 3rd earlier.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
Sadly I also don't think this would be viable for anyone else other than Code A/S level Terrans to try, it is just too demanding mechanically.
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On December 05 2012 09:32 mau5mat wrote:
Sadly I also don't think this would be viable for anyone else other than Code A/S level Terrans to try, it is just too demanding mechanically.
I dont think you need to view it as my mechanics can keep up with this.. I think its possible to do minimal but effective drops rather than having to drop all the time. So i think it fits into any league that you are in. 9/10 the people you play are going to be roughly the same skill level as you so their multitasking is just as good as your multitasking making the build still viable
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This is a great VOD to watch in terms of a general guideline for possibly dealing with Infestors, but my god... Gumiho outplays Life for 20 minutes and still barely wins...
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On December 05 2012 10:03 NKexquisite wrote:
This is a great VOD to watch in terms of a general guideline for possibly dealing with Infestors, but my god... Gumiho outplays Life for 20 minutes and still barely wins...
Gumiho's play was full of small errors too because he was stretching so hard is multitask, he hadn't enough to babysit really well his drops and some of his splits were kinda bad. He was never in real danger of losing toon which is exceptionnal vZ.
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On December 05 2012 10:32 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 10:03 NKexquisite wrote:
This is a great VOD to watch in terms of a general guideline for possibly dealing with Infestors, but my god... Gumiho outplays Life for 20 minutes and still barely wins... Gumiho's play was full of small errors too because he was stretching so hard is multitask, he hadn't enough to babysit really well his drops and some of his splits were kinda bad. He was never in real danger of losing toon which is exceptionnal vZ.
I think you have it backwards. His play wasn't sloppy b/c he didn't babysit his drops enough, his play was good b/c he didn't sit there any babysit his drops. 3 different drops are better than sitting there targeting down some drones and a queen in one drop.
Fact is Gumiho killed how many hatcheries? 5-6? Kept Zerg on basically 4 bases all game? It was still that close?
If the last battle at Gumiho's 5th base goes Life's way, Life probably wins that game.
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Well isnt muta ling bane gas heavy? and you see that worked off of 2 base all the time. Well I think this build gives way for a lot of pressure and it may confuse the opponent on what you are doing. I think because Life wasn't expecting this build he played a lot more defensively... I think the build hits optimal effective at the 18 min which is when BL infestor hits so I just think it is an effective way for the patch zergs to go back on the decline.
Even with the delayed 3rd he had infestors at 9 min and had about 8 or 9 of them and then moved up to 13 to 15. So I don't know if that means the build didn't work because he didn't have a 3rd earlier.
Muta ling bane, is inferior to code s marine tank micro. When muta currently work, it is only because terrans are overcompensating for the infestor (which they have to)
More importantly life is only at consistently behind in supply before the attack begins, this almost never happens. The late third also leads to a late 4th. All of this adds up to brood lords not out until 18 minutes, which is far too late considering how much a zerg can get away with greed in the midgame. Yes life made 14 infestors(the only units he made that cost gas), but he is still completely gas starved only making infestors and teching/upgrades.
Should life have just went with the deny the fourth method along with better creep, i don't think pure bio is viable as long as life hits his fungals with earlier broodlords.
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Just watched that game, looks like an amazingly fun style to use. I'll probably try this out for a while on ladder!
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On December 05 2012 10:52 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 10:32 sAsImre wrote:On December 05 2012 10:03 NKexquisite wrote:
This is a great VOD to watch in terms of a general guideline for possibly dealing with Infestors, but my god... Gumiho outplays Life for 20 minutes and still barely wins... Gumiho's play was full of small errors too because he was stretching so hard is multitask, he hadn't enough to babysit really well his drops and some of his splits were kinda bad. He was never in real danger of losing toon which is exceptionnal vZ. I think you have it backwards. His play wasn't sloppy b/c he didn't babysit his drops enough, his play was good b/c he didn't sit there any babysit his drops. 3 different drops are better than sitting there targeting down some drones and a queen in one drop. Fact is Gumiho killed how many hatcheries? 5-6? Kept Zerg on basically 4 bases all game? It was still that close? If the last battle at Gumiho's 5th base goes Life's way, Life probably wins that game.
ideally you'd want to babysit your drops and microing your army while macroing back at home. It might be possible or not but Gumiho's drop play was good more because it fucked up Life multitask and micro than for its sheer cost-efficiency. And Gumi made way bigger mistakes than targetting: his drops paths, where he dropped, not microing at all etc... still it was worth it imo because it fucked up life harder than it fucked up himself. How many drops did he lose that he could have saved?
One of the 1st bw daily of day9 is about tvp drop play on outlier where the T goes crazy (4 dropship) but doesn't deal enough while it was really impressive and lose because of it.
If Gumi manages to pull the samething with a slightly better drop micro, which I think is the main drawback of his beautiful game, he'd just destroy the Z because it'll be both insanely efficient and it'll fuck up the Z.
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That game was very impressive. Gumiho just completely out-multitasked life.
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I think a lot of how Life lost this came down to a few factors -
Greedy opening by GuMiho, quick 3CC
Tech opening by Life, 2base infestor.
Okay, this turns out kinda okay, but GuMiho keeps even supply with Life, which is not supposed to happen.
Life goes 100% ling/infestor, an outdated style as much zergs get banelings aswell, he did get banelings eventually, but even towards the end of the game baneling speed had not finished yet
GuMiho never really built vikings in any numbers, in the final engagement Life had 15 corrupters hovering in the air, doing absolutely nothing, this could turn into 8 more broodlords.
I think this is a viable strategy, but this game is not really a good example, its just GuMiho outplaying and outmultitasking Life greatly, while having Life making stupid decisions, like no banelings vs bio (no tanks) and having 15 corrupters chill in the air.
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On December 05 2012 09:32 mau5mat wrote:
Sadly I also don't think this would be viable for anyone else other than Code A/S level Terrans to try, it is just too demanding mechanically.
not at all
also sc2 in general doesn't need THAT many APMs for you to be a strong player
ive done this for a while in tvz, I used to have some good reps but they've all been lost TT>
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Watching both games, I'm not 100% sure about how viable this is. In both replays, Terran got a substantial advantage in the early game (3cc vs fast lair openings, Taeja game is an even bigger advantage) and their opponent went for extremely infestor heavy styles with no banelings.
It basically seems like the Ghosts are just replacing Tanks in a standard marine / tank / medivac composition, with the advantages of being more effective against Infestors specifically (cloak + emp / snipe), being better at harassment (with nukes + cloak) and costing less gas cost overall (uses same upgrades as bio, less gas per units), but at the cost of being extremely vulnerable to Banelings and Mutalisks with no Factory (i.e AoE) units and having much less staying power in direct engagements.
Edit: Certainly not ruling it out as a strategy, probably going to test it out a bit on the ladder, but I think I'd need to see more examples of it in pro games before I'm convinced.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On December 06 2012 02:04 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 09:32 mau5mat wrote:
Sadly I also don't think this would be viable for anyone else other than Code A/S level Terrans to try, it is just too demanding mechanically. not at all also sc2 in general doesn't need THAT many APMs for you to be a strong player ive done this for a while in tvz, I used to have some good reps but they've all been lost TT>
What I mean is, you would do much, much better playing a more standard TvZ 'really' well, than trying to do something like this when you don't have the mechanics to make it worthwhile.
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On December 06 2012 03:18 Pursuit_ wrote:
Watching both games, I'm not 100% sure about how viable this is. In both replays, Terran got a substantial advantage in the early game (3cc vs fast lair openings, Taeja game is an even bigger advantage) and their opponent went for extremely infestor heavy styles with no banelings.
It basically seems like the Ghosts are just replacing Tanks in a standard marine / tank / medivac composition, with the advantages of being more effective against Infestors specifically (cloak + emp / snipe), being better at harassment (with nukes + cloak) and costing less gas cost overall (uses same upgrades as bio, less gas per units), but at the cost of being extremely vulnerable to Banelings and Mutalisks with no Factory (i.e AoE) units and having much less staying power in direct engagements.
Edit: Certainly not ruling it out as a strategy, probably going to test it out a bit on the ladder, but I think I'd need to see more examples of it in pro games before I'm convinced.
Okay so if we are talking about current engagement being 100% honest with ourselves. Most of the first tank shots in an engagement are wasted because they get soaked up by infested terran eggs and that still gives way for infestors, lings, and banes to attack your army. Im talking about pure cost efficiency... Tanks are not worth it. Tanks are lucky if they survive 5 seconds in that form of engagement... Not to mention if you are caught in a bad engagement where your on the retreat and the zerg comes at you with his zerglings and kills the tanks either way... I would much rather have the mobility and the flexibility of having more say in the engagement rather than being forced to engage.
Also, arent infestors the problem? We are always complaining on how infestors are the problem well then these games should be great examples of how we can beat it. I would much rather have a zerg go muta ling bane rather than ling infestor
Now with the patch it makes ghost 100% more viable then tanks. If you EMP the infestors you have enough dps in your army to take care of the lings and banes. Making splitting more possible rather than your army just sitting there and getting roasted.
I dont think it vulnerable to mutalisk because tanks do not help against mutalisk. Sure it may make you more vulnerable to banes but with the amount of marauders in the composition it serves the same purpose (tanking) ability as the tanks.. Also with with this style you would be able to have more room for upgrades and not to mention if the zerg has a higher armor upgrade then you do attack it wouldnt even kill banes in one tank shot.. and not to mention siege tank has a minimal range and are completely useless unseiged.
Thanks for the response!
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On December 06 2012 04:10 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:04 c0sm0naut wrote:On December 05 2012 09:32 mau5mat wrote:
Sadly I also don't think this would be viable for anyone else other than Code A/S level Terrans to try, it is just too demanding mechanically. not at all also sc2 in general doesn't need THAT many APMs for you to be a strong player ive done this for a while in tvz, I used to have some good reps but they've all been lost TT> What I mean is, you would do much, much better playing a more standard TvZ 'really' well, than trying to do something like this when you don't have the mechanics to make it worthwhile.
When I play, I always expect my opponent to be better than me. That means they can time engagements properly and that they are going to make engagement work strategically for them. So if that is the case then standard isnt going to cut it because when it comes down to it zerg is going to know how to react to marine tank. The zerg already knows that the Terran has one timing thats going to be effective and so anytime before then they can do whatever the heck they want. Which leads to 70-80 drones before the 10 min mark and then straight units after that. You can perform this style really well and cause the zerg to screw up his macro because you are putting on pressure and preventing them from getting their ultimate composition. Terran likes to cut corners but Zerg likes to cut corners even more so anyway we as Terrans can hinder that I think that is a success.
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On December 06 2012 02:04 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 09:32 mau5mat wrote:
Sadly I also don't think this would be viable for anyone else other than Code A/S level Terrans to try, it is just too demanding mechanically. not at all also sc2 in general doesn't need THAT many APMs for you to be a strong player ive done this for a while in tvz, I used to have some good reps but they've all been lost TT>
I'm glad you have been doing this in TvZ! Can you tell us how engagements go and how to defend against muta ling bane?
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On December 06 2012 04:39 lamiller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:04 c0sm0naut wrote:On December 05 2012 09:32 mau5mat wrote:
Sadly I also don't think this would be viable for anyone else other than Code A/S level Terrans to try, it is just too demanding mechanically. not at all also sc2 in general doesn't need THAT many APMs for you to be a strong player ive done this for a while in tvz, I used to have some good reps but they've all been lost TT> I'm glad you have been doing this in TvZ! Can you tell us how engagements go and how to defend against muta ling bane?
Well I play differently in that I pretty much every game open with 2 rax poking either 11s, 12/14, or after cc first to force lings for his third base. Muta is the counter to mmm strategies, but I only find these builds challenging if I leave Zerg to macro. Normally with the tempo it's my goal to play at, he's morphing bane and lings to survive instead of thinking about harassing me.
Essentially the Midgame belongs to Zerg unless they are playing their race wrong, so I like to build a lot of bunkers (like three at your third base) and scout what they're up to with a floating factory. Against Muta long bane I play really defensive unless I have some tempo advantage. If they are aggressively getting in my face and shutting down my expos, I try to counter with a small force and take out the queens/live rumors ad then as many zergling as I can when he turns back to clean it up. I'm talking about like, 1/3rd of your army. When you maneuver like this you can force him into base trading vs 2/3rds Of your army + bunkers or frantically sending units back that will take a while to completely shut down your force.
Against hive tech it's actually a but easier IMO because of ghosts, and also if you are caught with your pants down you have a crap ton of rax/orbital/pf you can stay alive with. Also with no enough infestirs or banes, you can flank his army nicely and trade well that way
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On December 06 2012 06:47 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 04:39 lamiller wrote:On December 06 2012 02:04 c0sm0naut wrote:On December 05 2012 09:32 mau5mat wrote:
Sadly I also don't think this would be viable for anyone else other than Code A/S level Terrans to try, it is just too demanding mechanically. not at all also sc2 in general doesn't need THAT many APMs for you to be a strong player ive done this for a while in tvz, I used to have some good reps but they've all been lost TT> I'm glad you have been doing this in TvZ! Can you tell us how engagements go and how to defend against muta ling bane? Well I play differently in that I pretty much every game open with 2 rax poking either 11s, 12/14, or after cc first to force lings for his third base. Muta is the counter to mmm strategies, but I only find these builds challenging if I leave Zerg to macro. Normally with the tempo it's my goal to play at, he's morphing bane and lings to survive instead of thinking about harassing me. Essentially the Midgame belongs to Zerg unless they are playing their race wrong, so I like to build a lot of bunkers (like three at your third base) and scout what they're up to with a floating factory. Against Muta long bane I play really defensive unless I have some tempo advantage. If they are aggressively getting in my face and shutting down my expos, I try to counter with a small force and take out the queens/live rumors ad then as many zergling as I can when he turns back to clean it up. I'm talking about like, 1/3rd of your army. When you maneuver like this you can force him into base trading vs 2/3rds Of your army + bunkers or frantically sending units back that will take a while to completely shut down your force. Against hive tech it's actually a but easier IMO because of ghosts, and also if you are caught with your pants down you have a crap ton of rax/orbital/pf you can stay alive with. Also with no enough infestirs or banes, you can flank his army nicely and trade well that way
So you would say this is a good strategy in the late game. Could you throw tanks into this composition for the midgame? and then just go pure mmmg in the late game?
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Life could have that game with a few earlier banelings. But great game nonetheless
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I've been playing this style a lot after patch and I have to say it's very strong. I'm sniping infestors before they even get in range to fungal.
Against Muta ling bane however, bio is pretty underwhelming without insane micro (e.g. maradaurs and marines on different hotkeys, good splits, baneling focus fire) and without the security of running back to your tanks you will lose a lot of fights. Also, you will be much more vulnerable to muta ling bane timings without tanks.
Weakest thing about bio openings is that you need to open pretty greedily because you need fast double upgrades and the economy to power up to insane production or else your army will straight up lose.
Just keep a close eye on GSL and Pro league. I have a very strong feeling that bio will become the standard now that the infestor has been nerfed.
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On December 06 2012 08:33 lamiller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 06:47 c0sm0naut wrote:On December 06 2012 04:39 lamiller wrote:On December 06 2012 02:04 c0sm0naut wrote:On December 05 2012 09:32 mau5mat wrote:
Sadly I also don't think this would be viable for anyone else other than Code A/S level Terrans to try, it is just too demanding mechanically. not at all also sc2 in general doesn't need THAT many APMs for you to be a strong player ive done this for a while in tvz, I used to have some good reps but they've all been lost TT> I'm glad you have been doing this in TvZ! Can you tell us how engagements go and how to defend against muta ling bane? Well I play differently in that I pretty much every game open with 2 rax poking either 11s, 12/14, or after cc first to force lings for his third base. Muta is the counter to mmm strategies, but I only find these builds challenging if I leave Zerg to macro. Normally with the tempo it's my goal to play at, he's morphing bane and lings to survive instead of thinking about harassing me. Essentially the Midgame belongs to Zerg unless they are playing their race wrong, so I like to build a lot of bunkers (like three at your third base) and scout what they're up to with a floating factory. Against Muta long bane I play really defensive unless I have some tempo advantage. If they are aggressively getting in my face and shutting down my expos, I try to counter with a small force and take out the queens/live rumors ad then as many zergling as I can when he turns back to clean it up. I'm talking about like, 1/3rd of your army. When you maneuver like this you can force him into base trading vs 2/3rds Of your army + bunkers or frantically sending units back that will take a while to completely shut down your force. Against hive tech it's actually a but easier IMO because of ghosts, and also if you are caught with your pants down you have a crap ton of rax/orbital/pf you can stay alive with. Also with no enough infestirs or banes, you can flank his army nicely and trade well that way So you would say this is a good strategy in the late game. Could you throw tanks into this composition for the midgame? and then just go pure mmmg in the late game?
i dont like tanks because they slow down your tempo a lot, i think you have so much extra cash, especially if you are distracting well with drops or small bio pokes that you can use PF's to block off a lot of areas. tanks are good but with a mass bio style, your army is going to get stomped / crushed if zerg is willing to spend enough money to make sure that happens, so it's more about having a bunker/PF area to reinforce to so that you can be very ballsy with your army (as in doing base trades when you get the opportunity) as opposed to a small tank line. you can do it if you want, but you will not be able to afford ghosts in this way so its better to just do MMM G and add vikings if you absolutely have to
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i personally feel putting 4 marauders in a medivac drop is very dangerous as the muta counterattack interception will undoubtedly utterly dismantle its ability to deal damage to the zerg players vital economy and making drone harass obsolete. also i think that by putting marines inside medivacs profits more as they will be able to harrass workers way more effectivgely than a marauder otherwise could when being dropped in spite of being better at killing zerg buildings such as greater spires.
sorry for my bad english
hope i could help
lahara
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On December 08 2012 06:09 lahara wrote:
i personally feel putting 4 marauders in a medivac drop is very dangerous as the muta counterattack interception will undoubtedly utterly dismantle its ability to deal damage to the zerg players vital economy and making drone harass obsolete. also i think that by putting marines inside medivacs profits more as they will be able to harrass workers way more effectivgely than a marauder otherwise could when being dropped in spite of being better at killing zerg buildings such as greater spires.
sorry for my bad english
hope i could help
lahara
imo mutas (in the midgame at least) are the best way to slow down the tempo of a bio player. responding to high level muta harass takes a lot of APM and a lot of commitment to static D or intelligent unit positioning (which slows down his attacking)
if you see ppl like.. hmm.. vortix is someone i have seen do this. they go mutas just to get rid of medivacs basically (5-8 or so) and then get infestors. marine tank and bio combat zerg splash by spreading off clumps of marines (8 stim marine firing on a hatch, 8 tanks and 60 marines behind them but not too close to the hatch). once you get good carapace upgrades for mutalisk and an infestor count, you can fungal these marines that poke in and kill them for 1 fungal + a dive in with the mutas. it's a high apm style but its definitely not a stretch when you consider how much flanking and IT dropping you do with normal tank pushes
i think getting a few mutalisks, starting air upgrades as well as continuing ground carapace + ranged or melee, taking a 4th and 5th base and then going into infestors with PG is the best way to combat a bio heavy or pure bio force (only 1 factory or less), and the carapace upgrades for your mutas eventually add up quite a bit and your broodlords just live forever. mutas and infestors are both incredibly mineral light, so you can make these and drone up + expand or spend your minerals on other things instead (like adding in 10-12 queens for crazy ass transfuse)
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On December 05 2012 06:47 lamiller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:19 mau5mat wrote:
Wonder if we'll be seeing more play like this with the new changes due today? Will Bio play with ghosts more effective than Bio-tank? Any thoughts? I already think Bio play is more efficient than marine tank. Tanks in my mind are only good for defense of the base against zerg. Because honestly when you look at most siege tank engagements 9/10 an infestor throws a beach ball that already soaks up 95% of your tank fire and by the next shot they are either attacking your army or hitting infestors when you target them. I just think tanks are a waste and considering the build time + upgrades + cost = not really worth it. In regards to the new patch. I think ghosts will be the new tank because emp now out ranges fungal. Even though fungal is instant and emp is not. I still think tanks are still useless for the fact that it would still take 2 siege shots to kill a infested terran and I think its more of a wake up call for bio to be used because of emp range. Cut out tanks and you have more money for upgrades, and easier transition of tech with the excess gas. Also it would be a wake up call to zergs to stop being so greedy. Previously, what was terrans only timing push? +2/+2 with +1 vehicle weapons and since ever zerg knows the timing of that it makes the push even more inefficient because they know the time to build units. I think bio gives way to put pressure on immediately and when done properly will create a much more exciting game because honestly no one likes watching the current meta unless the terran somehow severely outplays the zerg. Thanks for the reply!
Dude great post I logged in just to say this lol
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After rewatching this vod i'm starting to think that this bbuild was not completely planned out by gumiho.. he shows some indecisiveness with his unit control and resource spending.. i think this might have been purely reactionary as there was no real muta threat or baneling swell the entire game. MMM > Infestors, with no instant DPS in banelings zerg loses all fights without hive tech
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On December 08 2012 08:48 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 06:09 lahara wrote:
i personally feel putting 4 marauders in a medivac drop is very dangerous as the muta counterattack interception will undoubtedly utterly dismantle its ability to deal damage to the zerg players vital economy and making drone harass obsolete. also i think that by putting marines inside medivacs profits more as they will be able to harrass workers way more effectivgely than a marauder otherwise could when being dropped in spite of being better at killing zerg buildings such as greater spires.
sorry for my bad english
hope i could help
lahara imo mutas (in the midgame at least) are the best way to slow down the tempo of a bio player. responding to high level muta harass takes a lot of APM and a lot of commitment to static D or intelligent unit positioning (which slows down his attacking) if you see ppl like.. hmm.. vortix is someone i have seen do this. they go mutas just to get rid of medivacs basically (5-8 or so) and then get infestors. marine tank and bio combat zerg splash by spreading off clumps of marines (8 stim marine firing on a hatch, 8 tanks and 60 marines behind them but not too close to the hatch). once you get good carapace upgrades for mutalisk and an infestor count, you can fungal these marines that poke in and kill them for 1 fungal + a dive in with the mutas. it's a high apm style but its definitely not a stretch when you consider how much flanking and IT dropping you do with normal tank pushes i think getting a few mutalisks, starting air upgrades as well as continuing ground carapace + ranged or melee, taking a 4th and 5th base and then going into infestors with PG is the best way to combat a bio heavy or pure bio force (only 1 factory or less), and the carapace upgrades for your mutas eventually add up quite a bit and your broodlords just live forever. mutas and infestors are both incredibly mineral light, so you can make these and drone up + expand or spend your minerals on other things instead (like adding in 10-12 queens for crazy ass transfuse)
Im a big fan of this play. If someone goes mutas like just 7-8 then it makes stopping dropships so much easier. Very useful.
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EPT
