Good morning/afternoon/evening to all you Starcraft lovers! Today I would like to talk to you all about core unit design, and what makes these units interesting, or in some cases, uninteresting. You will find no balance whine in this thread. You will not find me bashing Blizzard at any point in this thread. What you will find, is a positive and calm atmosphere where we take a look at actual units/abilitiesoutside the discussion of balance.
Starcraft 2 is filled with units that are unique and powerful. What makes these units exciting to watch? What makes these units exciting to play with? Before we look for specific answers to these questions, let's take a step back and look at the most memorable champions from Starcraft 2 and Brood War.
Why are we looking at the most memorable champions? In order to find out why some units are exciting and why some units aren't exciting, we need to look at past champions that people love. There has to be a reason(outside of personality) why specific champions are so loved, and why some champions aren't loved at all.
Let's start with our beloved champions from Starcraft 2 and Brood War: DongRaeGu - While DRG does have one of the most memorable and bubbly personalities of past champions, there is another reason why he was loved so much. So why did his fans worship him religiously? His play-style was filled with interesting units. During DRG's prime, fans loved to watch his ZvT more than anything. His play was entirely focused around Zerglings, Banelings, and Mutalisks, commonly referred to as DRG's lingblingmuta style. This style had basically no skill cap. The faster and more precise his movements got, the better his results were. At the peak of his prime, his lingblingmuta was like watching incredibly fast moving chess. Just take a look: + Show Spoiler +
Jaedong - Quite possibly the most beloved champion of all time(next to SlayerS'BoxeR). So why was he so loved? Once again, his play-style involved such beautiful movements around the map. His attacks were precise and coordinated. His transitions were perfect. Jaedong's use of Mutalisks and Scourge in ZvT and ZvZ were phenomenal. His lurker micro combined with his zergling surrounds moved nations :D He defiler control was gorgeous. And his transitions through these units were just phenomenal. Once again, his style was so hard to perfect, so hard to control, and so much like fast moving chess. Just take a look: + Show Spoiler +
Marineking - This guy has crazy fans. His fans probably cry with him every time he loses So what makes Marineking so special? Once again, his play-style is what gains him tremendous amounts of fans. During his "prime" he played an extremely fast-paced style of Bio(MMM) in TvZ, TvT, and TvP. The skill cap for this style of play is so incredibly high that everyone wanted to recreate it, but nobody could He took groups of marines and split them like nobody's business. He was constantly near death if he took one wrong step, and he rarely did. His use of interesting units gained him many fans, and this basically sums up why: + Show Spoiler +
Flash - Oh Lee Young-Ho...You either love this guy, or you hate him. His play-style probably created just as many anti-fans as fans, but it still brought him endless amounts of fans. There are people who call his style of play perfect. He was what every macro player strove to be. He is the definition of methodical and precise. His play-style brought so many fans because this play-style required him to make zero mistakes. And he did make zero mistakes. He was defensive and built the perfect army. I can't actually sum up his play into one paragraph, his siege tank usage was out of this world though. He was the ultimate chess master. + Show Spoiler +
Bisu - Oh, this handsome nerd had so many fans...So why did Bisu have so many fans? Well, for one: + Show Spoiler +
His target firing and movements was second to none. But what really made Bisu have so many fans was his ability to multitask. Many Starcraft 2 fans refer to MMA as the Bisu of Terran because of his multitasking and harassing, but this is an understatement. Bisu is and always will be, the king of attacking at multiple fronts: + Show Spoiler +
So, HotS2013, why did you just waste my time with these champions? Because, these champions are memorable for specific aspects of specific units/abilities. We need to take a step back and look at Starcraft 2 and try to find what units/abilities will make more interesting champions in the future.
What units will make more interesting champions in the future? Before we decide what units will make more interesting champions in the future, let's look at types of units that will make more interesting champions. -Units with relatively no skill cap/high skill cap -Units that punish people who don't pay attention, but don't outright kill them in 1 second -Units that promote multitasking from both sides -Units that promote positional play, but don't outright dominate entire areas -Units that can change the game, but are very hard to use
So what units fill these rolls currently? Well, there are many units that fill these rolls: -Zerglings (Greatly promote positional play, defensively and offensively & high skill cap) -Banelings (Punish people who don't pay attention & promote multitasking from both sides & landmines can change the game but are hard to use) -Mutalisks (Very high skill cap & promote multitasking from both sides & promotes positional play) -Marines (Very high skill cap & promote multitasking from both sides) -Siege tanks (Very high skill cap & promotes positional play & punishes but doesn't destroy) -Banshees (High skill cap & punishes people who don't pay attention but doesn't destroy) -Ghosts (Greatly promotes positional play & high skill cap) -Warp Prisms (Promotes multitasking & very high skill cap & promotes positional play) -Phoenixes (High skill cap & punishes people who don't pay attention) -High Templar (Greatly promotes positional play & punishes those who don't pay attention & can change the game) -Blink Stalkers (High skill cap & promotes multitasking from both sides)
So, HotS2013, what units don't create interesting champions? Infestor and Fungals The most talked about unit over the past few months fits this category perfectly. Outside the discussion of balance, fungal growth and infested terran are very bad for the game. Infestors can stop harassment completely by themselves with a fungal and a couple infested terran. This is bad for the game. It also changes the tide of battle too much. Fungals completely remove micro from battle and chain fungals are just boring to watch. Very few will remember the one who one tournaments with infestors, but nearly everyone will remember the one that multitasks with lingblingmuta and gets off a few baneling landmines. A good idea for infestors is to remove chain fungaling, meaning units that have been fungaled can't be fungaled for another 5 seconds or something along those lines.
Sentries and Forcefields Like the infestor, forcefields just remove micro completely from one side of the battle. Take a look at this thread for a more in depth analysis of the forcefield: + Show Spoiler +
Marauder Concussive Shells Simply, it just removes micro completely from one side of the battle. This is just bad design.
Colossi Outside the discussion of balance, basically, it's just a boring unit. Nobody is going to remember the guy who build colossi and absolutely decimated the opponent's forces in a matter of seconds.
I hope you all enjoyed this discussion, and I hope we can move toward a better game in the future! <3 you all <3 Brood War <3 Starcraft 2
PS: If someone could post this in the battle.net HotS forum for me so David Kim and Dustin Browder could see, it would be much appreciated
EDIT: Just to make myself clearer, I'd like to add this post to the OP: There aren't specific units that make "good" champions. I am saying there should be more units that are open to skillful use, which helps create more interesting champions. The champions we absolutely adore are the champions that take interesting units and wow us with them. There isn't a lot of room for these champions to really wow us with infestors, marauders, and sentries. In fact, they make more people dislike them for using them. What I'm trying to say, someone like DongRaeGu at his prime, couldn't really make Infestors more exciting to watch, than a standard European Zerg (not trying to take anything away from them, DRG is just DRG).
On November 21 2012 06:21 Apolo wrote: It's ok to hinder movement. But one thing is to hinder, another is to halt. Fungal could, for example, decrease speed incrementally, then incrementally give back speed, like a desease slowly spreading then being cured. That would give the other guy some room to spread units for instance, so they're spread when they stop. It could be given a projectile so it's not 100% hit, and the zerg would have to predict the pathing of the enemies units.
But even so, there's something about hindering movement that sucks. The same feeling applies to forcefields. The feeling of powerlessness. Once a zealot is concussive shelled, it's sad. There is nothing it can do. Same about forcefields. Same about fungal.
For forcefields, yes they encourage micro before. But so does storm, emp, burrowed banes, sieged tanks, blink, etc and they don't disencourage micro at any time. Encouraging micro before, only to disencourage it later kind of nullyfies the point no?
I agree, and I'm glad to do so. Fungal, FF and Colossus are boring as hell, as they (as you've already said) prevent people from microing, or are just bland.. A redesign of the colossus (or a complete removal of it with a good replacement (reaver...cough)) would be much appreciated. Basically, every PvP gets stale and uninteresting as soon as it enters the "let's mass colossus until one of us dies" phase. PvP actually has evolved into a nice matchup, but the colossus massing destroys all possible variability. I don't want to say something about fungal and FFs, because I think everything's been said before. The DB interview actually lets me hope for HotS, maybe SC2 will be as awesome as BW one day. (I also love BOTH games, so please no stupid SC2 vs. BW discussion)
I'm really glad to see Concussive Shells included in a list of anti-micro abilities. Usually it's just Forcefield and Fungal, Fungal and Forcefield. While I agree that both of those abilities destroy the ability of the opponent to make an active response, at least they require some skill from the player using them. Landing perfect forcefields consistently is something that only the best of the pros can do, and even they screw up some times. Chain fungal is easy to do, but fungal only lasts 4 game seconds, so doing it while macroing and other unit control isn't something anyone can do.
Concussive Shells, on the other hand, is a passive skill. You don't even need to do anything, and your opponent loses most of their ability to micro. It happens naturally, while you take care of other battle micro, like kiting. This, to me, makes it the worst offender of these skills.
It goes without saying that the way certain units work in SC2 prevents the players from using their units to their fullest capacity. Abilities (and normal attacks, too) should promote unit movement, not restrict it. Unfortunately, the response you'd get from Dustin is "SC2 is a different game". I think the problem lies not only in how abilities work, but in how fast the (huge) battles go.
I kinda disagree on the Banelings. They dont punish people who dont pay attention, because they will CRUSH people who dont pay attention OR who are too slow. In addition they will punish people who pay attention. There simply is no severe disadvantage to using a mass of Banelings, because they are easy to use and force an opponent to react/flee.
On November 21 2012 04:13 Kyadytim wrote: I'm really glad to see Concussive Shells included in a list of anti-micro abilities. Usually it's just Forcefield and Fungal, Fungal and Forcefield. While I agree that both of those abilities destroy the ability of the opponent to make an active response, at least they require some skill from the player using them. Landing perfect forcefields consistently is something that only the best of the pros can do, and even they screw up some times. Chain fungal is easy to do, but fungal only lasts 4 game seconds, so doing it while macroing and other unit control isn't something anyone can do.
Concussive Shells, on the other hand, is a passive skill. You don't even need to do anything, and your opponent loses most of their ability to micro. It happens naturally, while you take care of other battle micro, like kiting. This, to me, makes it the worst offender of these skills.
You heard it here first folks, concussive is more micro impeding than fungal and forcefield!
@people who have commented on the thread so far about fungals, concussives, and forcefields. The point isn't which is worse or better. The point is that both of them are very negative abilities that remove micro.
I disagree with the entire premise that specific units make 'good' champions. Champions are the ones that every aspect of their play, not just being good at one singular unit: MKP never became a champion, partially because his play is still gimmicky and uncontrolled. MVP is a champion because he makes every style work, without any downsides. DRG only became a champion after he developed beyond cute mutalisk play.
The rest of the post is just (somewhat) valid complaints about units but there's a million different threads on collossi/fungals/concussive/forcefields on these forums already.
On November 21 2012 05:44 Scootaloo wrote: So OP do you hate toss or something? Just noticing there's no listed toss champion for SC2 and half the unit's you whine about are protoss...
Even in your list of interesting unit toss seems a mere afterthought.
1. I listed Bisu in there. 2. I don't hate Protoss. 3. I don't see a SC2 Protoss champion that fits this role yet. I thought about Parting because of his earlier PvTs, which were a spectacle to watch, but his PvZ is brutally against the premise of this thread. I thought about MC, but he doesn't really fit this discussion, because he is very timing based and a lot of fans came because of his awesome personality. 4. I may have missed a couple units in the interesting units section, care to add any?
On November 21 2012 05:42 Derez wrote: I disagree with the entire premise that specific units make 'good' champions. Champions are the ones that every aspect of their play, not just being good at one singular unit: MKP never became a champion, partially because his play is still gimmicky and uncontrolled. MVP is a champion because he makes every style work, without any downsides. DRG only became a champion after he developed beyond cute mutalisk play.
The rest of the post is just (somewhat) valid complaints about units but there's a million different threads on collossi/fungals/concussive/forcefields on these forums already.
I don't think OP is stating that players like MKP and DRG "became champions" only because of their use of one or two units. I think OP is saying that their prowess in using these units made them incredibly interesting people to watch and garnered them tons of fans because of their captivating play-style.
On November 21 2012 05:10 Rabiator wrote: Most of it seems pretty good, but ...
I kinda disagree on the Banelings. They dont punish people who dont pay attention, because they will CRUSH people who dont pay attention OR who are too slow. In addition they will punish people who pay attention. There simply is no severe disadvantage to using a mass of Banelings, because they are easy to use and force an opponent to react/flee.
I think there is a disadvantage to using a lot of banelings. The disadvantage is that they suck in masses. Overkill on banelings and the terran splits/focus fires his tanks and all of a sudden a massive amount of cash blows up in a mass of green goop. They aren't like the preferred unit for balance whine, the infestor, in that regard. Overkill on banelings and you die, barring really good fungals. Also, I heard about "baneling splitting" a while ago and how certain pros were practicing it. I'm not sure if it ever panned out, but basically what the pros did was split the banelings to follow the split marines. It was pretty cool, and even more micro intensive than what the terran had to do. Not sure what the downside for forcing your opponent to react is. Isn't that one of the most important parts of a good ability, like storm?
On November 21 2012 05:42 Derez wrote: I disagree with the entire premise that specific units make 'good' champions. Champions are the ones that every aspect of their play, not just being good at one singular unit: MKP never became a champion, partially because his play is still gimmicky and uncontrolled. MVP is a champion because he makes every style work, without any downsides. DRG only became a champion after he developed beyond cute mutalisk play.
The rest of the post is just (somewhat) valid complaints about units but there's a million different threads on collossi/fungals/concussive/forcefields on these forums already.
I think you are missing the point I'm trying to make. There aren't specific units that make "good" champions. I am saying there should be more units that are open to skillful use, which helps create more interesting champions. The champions we absolutely adore are the champions that take interesting units and wow us with them. There isn't a lot of room for these champions to really wow us with infestors, marauders, and sentries. In fact, they make more people dislike them for using them. What I'm trying to say, someone like DongRaeGu at his prime, couldn't really make Infestors more exciting to watch, than a standard European Zerg (not trying to take anything away from them, DRG is just DRG).
Also, as the person above me stated- Banelings have a major downside to them. They cause the zerg player to invest in a potentially worthless unit. This creates very interesting positional situations.
While I agree that infestors are too multi-purpose...
I just don't know when we got on this circlejerk about anything that hinders movement being "anti-micro"
First, it's ok if some things hinder movement. That is ok. I really don't know how to argue with it because simply the idea that anything that slows a unit down or stops it is inherently bad is just a bad idea.
Secondly, things like forcefields and fungal aren't necessarily "anti-micro"
Yeah, sure, if you're caught, you're basically screwed, but in those cases you should have micro-ed beforehand, not now that you're caught. While there are some instances (forcefield traps on ramps and whatnot) what this whine is really about is being sorry that you got caught being lazy with your control.
For forcefields, setup a flank. This requires usually double the number of forcefields from the protoss, and allows you multiple avenues of escape if its going poorly.
For fungals, split, and lead with small groups to try to snipe stray infestors.
Both of these tasks are inherently micro-intensive, you're just not doing it after the fact, but before. Siege tanks and widow mines follow a similar pattern. All their planning and preparation and micro is done when you set them up. It doesn't mean they're "anti-micro" it just means you don't have to micro them in the battle to maximize their effectiveness.
You do have to micro them beforehand. And that's ok.
I just don't know when we got on this circlejerk about anything that hinders movement being "anti-micro".
Because in the case of fungal it's more a negation of movement than a hindrance. It would be great if it slowed, rooting in place completely negates micro though.
Great read I really like the analysis of iconic player's playstyles. I really hope muta ling bling can be a bit more viable in Hots, right now it's looking bad though, mech is prevalent and widow mines shut down mutas so hard..
On November 21 2012 06:02 Felnarion wrote: While I agree that infestors are too multi-purpose...
I just don't know when we got on this circlejerk about anything that hinders movement being "anti-micro"
First, it's ok if some things hinder movement. That is ok. I really don't know how to argue with it because simply the idea that anything that slows a unit down or stops it is inherently bad is just a bad idea.
Secondly, things like forcefields and fungal aren't necessarily "anti-micro"
Yeah, sure, if you're caught, you're basically screwed, but in those cases you should have micro-ed beforehand, not now that you're caught. While there are some instances (forcefield traps on ramps and whatnot) what this whine is really about is being sorry that you got caught being lazy with your control.
For forcefields, setup a flank. This requires usually double the number of forcefields from the protoss, and allows you multiple avenues of escape if its going poorly.
For fungals, split, and lead with small groups to try to snipe stray infestors.
Both of these tasks are inherently micro-intensive, you're just not doing it after the fact, but before. Siege tanks and widow mines follow a similar pattern. All their planning and preparation and micro is done when you set them up. It doesn't mean they're "anti-micro" it just means you don't have to micro them in the battle to maximize their effectiveness.
You do have to micro them beforehand. And that's ok.
It's ok to hinder movement. But one thing is to hinder, another is to halt. Fungal could, for example, decrease speed incrementally, then incrementally give back speed, like a desease slowly spreading then being cured. That would give the other guy some room to spread units for instance, so they're spread when they stop. It could be given a projectile so it's not 100% hit, and the zerg would have to predict the pathing of the enemies units.
But even so, there's something about hindering movement that sucks. The same feeling applies to forcefields. The feeling of powerlessness. Once a zealot is concussive shelled, it's sad. There is nothing it can do. Same about forcefields. Same about fungal.
For forcefields, yes they encourage micro before. But so does storm, emp, burrowed banes, sieged tanks, blink, etc and they don't disencourage micro at any time. Encouraging micro before, only to disencourage it later kind of nullyfies the point no?
It's ok to hinder movement. But one thing is to hinder, another is to halt. Fungal could, for example, decrease speed incrementally, then incrementally give back speed, like a desease slowly spreading then being cured. That would give the other guy some room to spread units for instance, so they're spread when they stop. It could be given a projectile so it's not 100% hit, and the zerg would have to predict the pathing of the enemies units.
For forcefields, yes they encourage micro before. But so does storm, emp, burrowed banes, sieged tanks, blink, etc and they don't disencourage micro at any time. Encouraging micro before, only to disencourage it later kind of nullyfies the point no?
I think you hit the nail on the head here! Great post! However, instead of another projectile spell, keep it instant, but make it so the units can't be fungaled again for 5 seconds after.
EPT
So what makes Marineking so special? Once again, his play-style is what gains him tremendous amounts of fans. During his "prime" he played an extremely fast-paced style of Bio(MMM) in TvZ, TvT, and TvP. The skill cap for this style of play is so incredibly high that everyone wanted to recreate it, but nobody could He took groups of marines and split them like nobody's business. He was constantly near death if he took one wrong step, and he rarely did. His use of interesting units gained him many fans, and this basically sums up why:
Fungal, FF and Colossus are boring as hell, as they (as you've already said) prevent people from microing, or are just bland.. A redesign of the colossus (or a complete removal of it with a good replacement (reaver...cough)) would be much appreciated. Basically, every PvP gets stale and uninteresting as soon as it enters the "let's mass colossus until one of us dies" phase. PvP actually has evolved into a nice matchup, but the colossus massing destroys all possible variability. 
