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In depth look at HOTS unit design / issues

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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kaokentake
Profile Joined July 2012
383 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 02:04:56
September 06 2012 02:36 GMT
#1
Viper? At first i hated the unit because its worthless, but now i LIKE the unit because its worthless.

In my opinion i think we dont want too many drastic changes to the matchups as I believe, since WoL has many more units at release than SC1 did, in its essence WoL has almost as much racial diversity as BW (as most of WoL's unit designs came from BW). The non-mirror matchups in starcraft 2 are currently "feeling" very similar to the way they felt in BW (and battle hellions should bring TvP more in line with feeling like BW)

TvZ in BW is heavily about terran trying to use timings to punish a zerg whos ultimately going for his hive doom army

PvZ is largely the same thing

TvP in WoL is the matchup the most unlike its BW matchup, however if you consider the roles flipped then its like BW because in BW the protoss had army/units that were very strong in small numbers (now terran is like this) and the protoss did harassment fights all over the map trying to attack the terran where his doom army wasnt while the terran was trying to turtle to his doom army

I dont want too much crap being added that just ruins the matchups, and ruins the BW feel that does exist. Theres tons of generic RTS's out there, starcraft shouldnt try to "get away" from feeling like BW or it will just be boring and unfun to watch. The viper is a example of a good unit because its worthless, does pretty much nothing, so it wont ruin the game too much.

The viper will serve only two very small and niche roles, cloud against pure-mass terran bio, and the abduct ability against a protoss relying on turtling with collossi. Pretty much the way devourers were never seen in BW because they only were good to counter carriers and BC's, vipers should be almost never-seen unless the zerg really needs one of these 2 roles fulfilled.

And honestly those 2 roles "feel" zergish so im okay with the viper as a unit.

Pretty much a zerg should almost never want to make a viper (infestors are more powerful) but if a terrans massing pure bio, or if a protoss is camping behind cannons with some collossi in there, then 2-3 vipers could be a good addition to your army. Overall, I think the unit is fine and feels zergish.

The radius of the cloud seems way too small however. Buff its radius.

_________________________________________________

The oracle? sort of like the above, at first i hated this unit because its worthless, but now i like it because its worthless as i realized I dont want too many unit additions ruining the way the current matchups "feel" as I think they still are pretty darn close to BW.

Adding some new combat units is ok, but the warhound is a horrible example of how to add a combat unit to this game. Many combat units already fulfill the small amount of roles that could exist, and adding in a bland thing like the warhound that overlaps too much with everything else just feels dumb.

Back to the oracle. A problem with the oracle is its vision ability is very weak (low range) seems to have a low duration and is used in conjunction with the tempest, but i feel the tempest needs to be removed. So remove the oracles vision-ability and cloaking field and give the oracle 2 new spells, one super worthless (like the vipers building damage spell), and one sort of worthless (like the vipers cloud).

I have an idea for the oracle, what about a "empowered shield" ability for the oracle, for 100 energy when casted on a unit improves its shield strength by 100 extra, max of 200 extra, and when the extra shields are destroyed the unit doesnt get them back (it still has normal shields the extra is just extra from the spell). Then make units glow sort of blue-ish or something so you know it has extra shields. So this spell could be casted on collossi or carriers to make them stronger but its a very weak spell (100 energy for 100 life/shields, which is weak compared to fungals 75 energy to deal 250+ damage)

I also believe the cloaking field should be removed and returned to the mothership. Giving mothersihp air stasis, ground vortex, recall, and cloaking field seems fine. The oracle with the cloaking field seems dumb.

As for the third spell of the oracle, I have an idea to turn the vision spell into an actual useful spell. \

Right now, the vision spell of the oracle serves as nothing more than tempest support. But I believe the tempest is retarded and should be removed, and thus with no tempest the oracles vision spell is worthless. But What about making the vision spell of the oracle have, say, 30 sight-range (but make the spell have a low cast-range making the oracle in danger when casting it), and it can only target buildings, and it costs 200 energy and lasts forever, and the building with it on glows bright-green letting the enemy know its there. So for 200 energy and the cost of a oracle the protoss can cast it on your command center and basically go "boom baby i just nuked your base with my maphackz. it costed me 200 energy and was expensive, but now i see 100% of your army movement around your base and i know if your not there then you must be attacking me". So this spell seems powerful, but not too OP as it costs 200 energy and a expensive oracle and you must risk the oracle to use the spell.

A terran could spend 1800 on 4 orbitals for a few scans a minute that provides the same benefit at a increased cost but doesnt require risking an oracles life to perform. So the oracle method is MUCH cheaper than 4 orbitals, but might never work if the enemy keeps killing your oracle because it can cast the spell.

I think that is a great spell idea. So that can serve as the oracles 3 spells. So the oracle spells could be something like entombed, the above vision idea, and the empowered shields (or something else that blizzard comes up with. But I believe the spells of these new casters should be weak as fungal/storm/HSM is already so strong)

Entombed is like a reverse-mule. It does no damage to your units but it reduces the rate at which you mine. Keeping a few marines in the mineral line should deal with it ok but honestly I think it lasts a bit too long maybe make it last only 30 seconds.

EDIT: many people think my vision spell is imbalanced. I contest it very well probably is, however all im saying is the oracle has some useless spells right now and if the tempest is removed then the oracle should have its useless spells replaced with something good. The oracles "scan" to not die to cloaked units is fine IMO but the preordaine ability is only useful with tempests.
_________________________________________________


The tempest? Im sorry but this units "purpose" does not need to exist, and should not exist for protoss.

The design of the tempest is to have longrange thus forcing engagements or slowly damaging your enemy. Sorry but that just does not belong on protoss. It doesnt belong in the game at all, but if it did it would belong on terran, but terran already has a unit that is designed to serve that role (siege tank). This means the tempest should just be removed, or redesigned and given a new role.

The role of "longrange unit, if your enemy is turtling you use it to force him out with its longrange" is a role that protoss unit does not need. Protoss does not need it, remove it. Bring back the carrier, give it 90 second buildtime (and give BC's 75 while ur at it), allow it to attack while moving (allowing it to kite BC's and moveshot bases like in bw). Make the attack-while-moving ability of the carrier a toggled ability, meaning the protoss can turn it on or off (as theres some moments like sieging a base and getting into position where you dont want your carriers to fire all their interceptors into turrets and marines)

Boom youve got a great unit. Carriers are never seen now BECAUSE mech sucks. With battle hellions making mech good, carriers will see new play. Carriers are ALREADY the standard lategame PvZ unit, why the fuck remove it? Stop it Dustin, keep carriers in, When your entire design team is telling you you're wrong, you're wrong.

When battlecruisers were first introduced they had HORRENDOUS movement speed which was actually balanced because they were so much stronger than carriers but carriers could kite them. When BC's were buffed to have movement speed higher, it really through out of whack carriers perceived balance compared to BC's because carriers can no longer kite BC's (yes every 2 BC's can yamato and instantly 1shot a carrier, and BC's do counter carriers, but they didnt counter them as-hard when they were kite-able, and with templars to feedback/storm the BC's you had a shot)

EDIT:
It seems many protoss here feel that tempests are needed to combat infestor/broodlord.

I feel thats incorrect. I think one problem that does exist however is that carriers received a "nerf" in patch 1.5 where the interceptors clump up alot more now, making 1fungal hit almost all the interceptors.

I think carriers would be a better counter to infestor/broodlords if fungal was changed to no longer work against interceptors.

How about just make interceptors immune to spells, boom I think thats perfect and thats all thats needed. So thor splash still works against interceptors, but spells (hsm/storm/fungal) do nothing to interceptors.

You can still chain fungal on the carriers and kill them with corrupters or launch 50 infested terrans and fungal the carriers, you just cannot chain fungal the interceptors anymore and kill 80% of the interceptors with 2 fungals.

If interceptors were buffed to be immune to spells, it would fix alot of stuff in lategame PvZ (combined with letting carriers attack while moving, and reducing buildtime by a bit). Right now I feel most zergs are starting to abuse fungal vs interceptors when the toss reponds with carriers, and it does seem a little too good.

_________________________________________________


Warhound?
Warhounds "fix" a problem (tank stalemate TvT) that does not exist.

Warhounds werent needed in TvP because the problem with TvP mech was there was no real viable tanking unit for the tanks (like mines in bw) to contest zealots. And the battle hellions solve that. With the introduction of battle hellions (which is essentially a entirely new unit, a mineral-only high-hp unit to soak damage for your tanks) mech should be fixed in TvP and warhounds are not needed.

Not only that, blizzard even added mines? i was against the mines at first thinking it didnt really need to exist and was just giving some free AoE dps on top of tanks for no reason. But now that their damage is alot weaker I think im slightly starting to like them. Make mines no longer target air units IMO, and I think they are a nice addition.

Warhounds are nothing more than a glorified roach/marauder with no reason to exist. Mech doesnt need something like warhound anymore in TvP, and in TvT its pointless. Its just a super buff marauder. It overlaps in role of the marauder, and its anti-mech missiles are a game-design void of purpose. It doesnt need to exist, terran doesnt need a anti-mech "unit" to slaughter the protoss race which is all mech. It forces protoss to get archon/chargelot with 100% of their minerals/gas in order to "avoid" the anti-mech missiles.

The warhound as a unit cannot be balanced to have combat stats allowing it to be use-able against zerg, while at the same time having free anti-mech missiles. This means the unit would be balanced to have strong stats, and then free missiles on top of it? making it overpowered against protoss. Or on the flip side, if the warhounds were balanced to be not overpowered against protoss with the missiles, then they would be underpowered against zerg with reduced stats and no missiles.

Either way the warhound cannot exist with its current design. One option could be to make the warhound missiles a transformation like the hellion where the user clicks the missiles to arm them, and then once armed with the missiles the warhound will have reduced strength in combat, but improved strength against mech with its missiles activated, making the unit balanced against protoss. And then the terran could de-activate his missiles against zerg since the missiles are useless against zerg.

Or the second option is to just remove the warhound and replace it with a better designed unit actually fitting a role that seems "terran-ish" or at least a role that seems "exciting to watch as an esport". Sure I guess the marauder is exciting in my eyes and i guess the role of the warhound which overlaps the marauder "can" in some ways be exciting. But it does a really bad job of it. In my opinion the marauder already fills the role of the warhound in a more exciting way, so sorry, but the warhound needs to be axed (or completely redesigned).

_________________________________________________

Swarm host?

I think this is a good unit because terran and protoss now have much stronger anti-zergling options in the form of battle hellion AND the powerful midgame presence of the mothership core allowing the protoss to more safely and greedily macro up and get to collossus faster and safer so protoss will have more collossi.

This means the strength of zerglings has gone down dramatically (still useful, but, other races were given large options against it. zerglings are now heavily super early unit, and a lategame swarm option after most of your enemies battle hellions and collossi have been destroyed by roaches+fungal+swarmhosts)

So zerg needs the swarm hosts now because in WoL zergs could swarm in and suicide armies of lings and be okay, but with terrans battle hellions and tosses mothership core (allowing a strong midgame presence, so faster/stronger collossi) the suicide armies of lings will be much less potent

_________________________________________________

And finally the mothership core. A first i hated it, but now I love it because its an actual unit and serves as protosses "new combat unit".

The mothership core fixes everything toss needed. Protoss has plenty lategame power units (collossi, immortal, voidrays, carrier, mothership, storms, archons) and felt like the midgame had something to be desired. Now the mothership core fits in there perfectly.

The mothership core will be used as a offensive unit more than a defensive unit. It flies, comes fast, and is extremely powerful. I expect protosses to build a mothership core after their cyber, attack terran/zerg with it, let it die (killing many marines or queens in the process), then build another and attack with your main army plus another core. The mothership core is very powerful in cost/strength but you can only build one of them and it will be used in the army (until ultimately lategame its replaced by mothership)

The mothership core seems like a good unit added to protoss that fits-in well like the battle hellion fits-in well. I think the mothership core is serving well as the "new protoss unit".

The mothership core moves extremely slow, but it is cheap and you can actually attack a enemy with it pretty quickly at about 8 minutes if you fly it to your enemies base after getting it at a normal time. A offensive mothership core is almost as powerful as a flying collossi, but comes alot faster, at 8 minutes, but moves super slow, and I honestly dont think its imbalanced as queens/marines both deal with it very well and it serves as a mid-game strength unit that protoss seemed to be lacking.

But toss can only spend their money on 1 mothership core, while terran/zerg can spend all their money on bio/roaches, so protoss gets to have this one powerful midgame unit, but only one of them, then the rest of protoss money is spent getting to their endgame goodies.

_________________________________________________

Reapers. I feel the reapers are going in the wrong direction. Reapers could be a strong harassment unit but they dont need the regeneration because medivacs exist, let them keep their speed as i think the speed has been removed).

The problem with reapers is their buildtime. The days of 3range queens and 3range roaches are over, zerg no longer is worried about reapers, so the buildtime of reapers should be changed to like 20 seconds. Yes, 20 seconds, you heard me. Marauders are 30 seconds with a techlab, I feel 15-20 seconds for a reaper buildtime with a techlab is completely fine given the fact that marauders are 30 seconds for 2food, why 15 seconds for 1food seems fine.

Also, reapers can serve as a great harassment unit with this improved buildtime (which means less barracks are needed for reaper production). With speed and the improved buildtime, reapers could be a great addition to lategame bio with upgrades being fast and strong and they dont need the health regeneration lategame due to medivacs.


_________________________________________________


So far with my above ideas (remove warhound, remove tempest, allow carrier to attack while moving, change oracles useless spells) I think that is the direction hots should go.

Looking at my above ideas it would produce the following changes

Terran has mines and battle hellions added. Honesty, I think thats fine, stop there, add nothing more to terran. Remember battle hellions are essentially completely new combat unit, like a powerful zealot you can add to your mech army to tank for your tanks. Then terran gets mines instead of a semi-worthless caster. I dont think "mech" needs more anti-air then the thor since the viking is also there as an anti-air option. The thor is a fine anti-air unit that fits more in line with how mech should be than the goliath. The thor with +3 upgrades and some viking/hellion support should do just fine against broodlords (heck, marineking won a game lastnite against a similar supply broodlord army using thors. We saw MVP at IEM crushing zerg broodlord armies with thor timing attacks when the zerg cant have 10+ broods. When the supply count of broodlords/thors is less than 50 and both have backup support, thors do well against broods. And when the supply count of broodlords is over 70, then you better best damn have some HSM's and vikings and possibly BC's)

Protoss has mothership core and oracle added. That seems fine to. Add nothing more.

Zerg has viper added swarm host added.

The above seems perfect. Basically Im the jist of my write-up is I think the warhound and tempest are complete Dustin Browder C&C units that dont belong in starcraft and their design and purpose is shit and they shouldnt exist. It will only make the game worse.

With the above plan I propose, each race gets 2 new units, and the balance seems pretty well. Then in LOTV each race can each receive 1 new amazing pure-combat unit (no lame spellcasters) that are hopefully better designed than the warhound/tempest and actually fit a good role that feels well within its race.

Whatever blizzard does I hope it works. I know i come off as egotistical in this thread most likely but im sorry, I guess you cant write a huge analysis thread like this without throwing your own ideas in there.
KJSharp
Profile Joined May 2011
United States84 Posts
September 06 2012 03:28 GMT
#2
Thank you for your post. I think you propose several changes that would be positive. Concerning the warhound, I think there are a many different things the warhound could be converted into. Right now, the unit is awful, for all the reasons you stated. I have a few ideas, and I'm sure the community will be able to propose others as well.

1) The Warhound as a necessary first stage for the Thor, in a similar vein as a high templar or dark templar is for an archon. The Warhound would be a factory unit and not require a tech lab, and it would have a ground attack and anti-air attack. It would be weaker than the Thor, but smaller and more mobile. Then, after getting an armory, you then get the ability to convert 2 warhounds into a Thor. In this vision, the Thor would need to be buffed in some way to make this conversion worth it, perhaps giving its cannon upgrade an AOE effect and stun effect so it is actually useful against collossi and ultralisks.

2) The Warhound as a sort of kamikaze self-destruction unit. This warhound has 2 abilities. First, it has an ability that causes it to instantly explode, dealing aoe damage all around it. Second, it has a harpoon ability which can only target an air target. The harpoon latches onto the air unit, pulling the warhound up to the air unit, dealing a significant amount of damage to the air unit and all ground units below it. I suppose you could modify the unit to where it has the harpoon ability and also a basic ground attack (and remove the instant self-destruct ability). This warhound would never be an integral core of a standard unit composition, but would have its uses in the late game, especially against Terran (Vikings) and Zerg (broodlords/corruptors). It also requires some micro on the user's end, and requires some reactionary micro on the opponents end, which is a plus in my book.
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 03:52:23
September 06 2012 03:48 GMT
#3
actually, you are incorrect about the reason for the vision on oracle.

it's not for tempest at all. It's so you don't auto lose to cloak banshee or DT if you open stargate.
That's all. In WoL if you open stargate you build order lose to stealth tech.

For oracle vision you can either poke with phoenix, or hallu phoenix, or obs, or suicide a probe, or any number of options to get tempest the vision they need.

I think most people agree that the tempest is stupid. Even with range, it's supply vs damage ratio is too poor, meaning for them to be a credible threat their critical mass requires too much army supply. So the opponent either ignores them, or just 1A's your army and kills you. They are BL's that lack the ability to actually hurt anything. If their damage is increased or supply cost lowered protoss will get enough to do serious damage and cannon creep accross the map similar to spines and broods. I simply cannot see this unit working out.
Lawliet
Profile Joined May 2010
United States70 Posts
September 06 2012 05:39 GMT
#4
Tempest and Warhounds need to die. Absolutely worthless.

Tempest is just lazy. As a unit it doesn't make any sense. It just seems like they didn't want to balance Carriers and made this unit. They had this insane idea (remember pre beta Tempest that blew up muta clouds in a few hits?) that didn't pan out but instead of admitting fault and redoing something they're trying to reuse as much of the Tempest resource? I dunno. Maybe the guy who designed the unit or rendered the model or something is like Browder's cousin or something.

Warhound thing has been pounded into the ground. That unit is already in the game under a different name. And a Factory unit that makes other factory units that makes mech unviable? wtf?!

Oracles seem a little.... I dunno. gimmicky too. I guess it's so you have a stronger presence with a stargate opening but I thought that's what Phoenix openings were for.

Visage814
Profile Joined April 2012
United States109 Posts
September 06 2012 07:29 GMT
#5
Some of your ideas in the article sounded a little weird, but by the time I had finished reading it I actually think all the changes you represent together are perfect. It's amazing how much of a consensus there is on the warhound, there is no way they will leave that unit as it is (hopefully they won't even leave it in).

I really feel like all of this is Blizzard not being able to just admit they were wrong. It's totally okay to just go backwards a couple steps. The process of continuously changing things and trying to implement new ideas instead of fixing old ones isn't working out.
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
September 06 2012 09:27 GMT
#6
Warhounds werent needed in TvP because the problem with TvP mech was there was no real viable tanking unit for the tanks (like mines in bw) to contest zealots. And the battle hellions solve that. With the introduction of battle hellions (which is essentially a entirely new unit, a mineral-only high-hp unit to soak damage for your tanks) mech should be fixed in TvP and warhounds are not needed.


No no no. Zealots are not the problem in Mech TvP. The immortal is.

The immortal alone can rip through a massive tank army with thor support and it's stupid as hell.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
kaokentake
Profile Joined July 2012
383 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 09:33:51
September 06 2012 09:33 GMT
#7
On September 06 2012 18:27 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
Warhounds werent needed in TvP because the problem with TvP mech was there was no real viable tanking unit for the tanks (like mines in bw) to contest zealots. And the battle hellions solve that. With the introduction of battle hellions (which is essentially a entirely new unit, a mineral-only high-hp unit to soak damage for your tanks) mech should be fixed in TvP and warhounds are not needed.


No no no. Zealots are not the problem in Mech TvP. The immortal is.

The immortal alone can rip through a massive tank army with thor support and it's stupid as hell.


I said "to contest zealots" which means you need a damage soaking unit thats "contesting" the damage soaking power of zealots.

Old hellions couldnt do that

New hellions can do that

now that new hellions contest zealots in the strength of tanking damage for the big power units (zealots tanking for immortal/collossi, hellions tanking for tanks/thors) mech would be viable now.

I tested it in the ohana map and mech without warhounds but WITH the new battle hellions shreds any combination of immortals/collossi (or even mass immortals) you want to throw at it, in equal cost/food armies
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
September 06 2012 09:34 GMT
#8
Remove warhound, buff tank damage to 60 flat.

Mech is now awesome.
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
September 06 2012 09:39 GMT
#9
On September 06 2012 18:34 forsooth wrote:
Remove warhound, buff tank damage to 60 flat.

Mech is now awesome.


I think everyone would be happy with this.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
kaokentake
Profile Joined July 2012
383 Posts
September 06 2012 09:40 GMT
#10
On September 06 2012 18:34 forsooth wrote:
Remove warhound, buff tank damage to 60 flat.

Mech is now awesome.


60 to armored im ok with

not ok with 60 to zealots
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
September 06 2012 09:51 GMT
#11
On September 06 2012 18:39 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2012 18:34 forsooth wrote:
Remove warhound, buff tank damage to 60 flat.

Mech is now awesome.


I think everyone would be happy with this.

I know one man that wouldn't be. He thinks tank lines are a problem in TvT.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
Berceno
Profile Joined May 2012
Spain401 Posts
September 06 2012 10:02 GMT
#12
I think the same way about most of the units, but actually the game looks good, there is a lot of back and forth and it looks harder than wol
protoss living in da ghetto
Killmouse
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria5700 Posts
September 06 2012 10:16 GMT
#13
tempest and warhounds are so terrible designed, it almost hurts my head T.T such 1 A and boring units
yo
Evangelist
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1246 Posts
September 06 2012 10:24 GMT
#14
You've got to be utterly stupid not to see the reason why the Tempest is in the game. What's the main problem with Toss at the moment?

Could it possibly be massive colossus/broodlord standoffs that are only resolved using either an A move onto another deathball or an archon toilet?

Voila. Tempest solves those problems.
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
September 06 2012 10:27 GMT
#15
On September 06 2012 19:24 Evangelist wrote:
You've got to be utterly stupid not to see the reason why the Tempest is in the game. What's the main problem with Toss at the moment?

Could it possibly be massive colossus/broodlord standoffs that are only resolved using either an A move onto another deathball or an archon toilet?

Voila. Tempest solves those problems.

The tempest adds more dumb to the clusterfuck of dumb that is PvZ lategame. It's not an optimal solution by any means.
kaokentake
Profile Joined July 2012
383 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 10:33:01
September 06 2012 10:32 GMT
#16
On September 06 2012 19:24 Evangelist wrote:
You've got to be utterly stupid not to see the reason why the Tempest is in the game. What's the main problem with Toss at the moment?

Could it possibly be massive colossus/broodlord standoffs that are only resolved using either an A move onto another deathball or an archon toilet?

Voila. Tempest solves those problems.



broodlords are the counter to collossi and should be strong against them. mothership/carrier/voidray/storm counters the lategame zerg broodlord/infestor based army nicely its a fine back and forth relationship


the tempest is just completely stupid and doesnt belong in the matchup. letting carrier attack while moving would help alot too.
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
September 06 2012 11:02 GMT
#17
On September 06 2012 19:32 kaokentake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2012 19:24 Evangelist wrote:
You've got to be utterly stupid not to see the reason why the Tempest is in the game. What's the main problem with Toss at the moment?

Could it possibly be massive colossus/broodlord standoffs that are only resolved using either an A move onto another deathball or an archon toilet?

Voila. Tempest solves those problems.



broodlords are the counter to collossi and should be strong against them. mothership/carrier/voidray/storm counters the lategame zerg broodlord/infestor based army nicely its a fine back and forth relationship


the tempest is just completely stupid and doesnt belong in the matchup. letting carrier attack while moving would help alot too.


Back and forth relationship? Are you watching the same ZvPs I am? Either the protoss wins with that battle or the zerg, there's no back and forth when the armies are so slow.
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kaokentake
Profile Joined July 2012
383 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 11:08:16
September 06 2012 11:07 GMT
#18
On September 06 2012 20:02 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2012 19:32 kaokentake wrote:
On September 06 2012 19:24 Evangelist wrote:
You've got to be utterly stupid not to see the reason why the Tempest is in the game. What's the main problem with Toss at the moment?

Could it possibly be massive colossus/broodlord standoffs that are only resolved using either an A move onto another deathball or an archon toilet?

Voila. Tempest solves those problems.



broodlords are the counter to collossi and should be strong against them. mothership/carrier/voidray/storm counters the lategame zerg broodlord/infestor based army nicely its a fine back and forth relationship


the tempest is just completely stupid and doesnt belong in the matchup. letting carrier attack while moving would help alot too.


Back and forth relationship? Are you watching the same ZvPs I am? Either the protoss wins with that battle or the zerg, there's no back and forth when the armies are so slow.



Ive seen lategame PvZ's where theres multiple army trades of broodlord/infestor deathball vs carrier/collossi/stalker/mothership/storm deathball. Cant remember the players off the top of my head, but archon toilets are essentially a non-issue as long as the zerg splits his units. Fungal and vortex will both own you if you dont split. Deathballs exist in every non-mirror and you cannot get rid of it with the tempest.
Evangelist
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1246 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 11:10:02
September 06 2012 11:08 GMT
#19
The only reason there's some much crap about the Tempest is they replaced a unit that's been completely useless since the beginning (carrier) with something that actually solves problems. The Tempest is a fantastic idea - it basically forces engagements on the terms of the toss by sniping off broodlords/infestors. It provides an immediate threat that must be dealt with.

Tempests will make the matchup more dynamic, as you will see more flanking, more corruptor movement and stalker/archon/corruptor battles as toss try and protect their tempests from corruptors. Hell they'll probably force hydras to be included, thus breaking up the deathball even more.

They will become standard in late game ZvP.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
September 06 2012 11:12 GMT
#20
On September 06 2012 18:39 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2012 18:34 forsooth wrote:
Remove warhound, buff tank damage to 60 flat.

Mech is now awesome.


I think everyone would be happy with this.


I think you people don't realize how tank splash works. Look at the chart in liquipedia:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Splash_damage

This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling:
From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area
From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;

Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
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