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This thread is to discuss TL's perspective on death/after death/afraid or not,
Disclaimer related to beliefs/religion/spirituality:
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ALL beliefs from EVERY religion are completely applicable to this thread, because this is a thread on "personal" beliefs. Note that I expect any religion bashing will result in fast closure of this thread which is really depressing because I find the topic rather interesting, and that I will personally be pming mods if anyone say's hateful/ignorant comments that go against someones belief structure.
Furthermore, any debate related to the "likely hood" of a persons "belief" is also accepted as long as it is purely scientific and does not relate to "faith or personal belief related to scripture that is not factual science"... By this I hope we stay away from "my religions better than yours mentality".
In the end, be respectful and this should be fine....
Furthermore, any debate related to the "likely hood" of a persons "belief" is also accepted as long as it is purely scientific and does not relate to "faith or personal belief related to scripture that is not factual science"... By this I hope we stay away from "my religions better than yours mentality".
In the end, be respectful and this should be fine....
This video is Alan Watts discussing his perspective on how everything is "nothingness" and discusses a few topics related to Buddhism philosophy. I found it particularly interesting because it directly relates to our beginning and our end, as a species and even the larger picture as the universe.
I am looking for this thread to discuss three topics, which are opinions based on your own personal beliefs.
A) After watching the video, what do you take away from it? Do you agree, or disagree? Does it affect your own belief structure? (if it doesn't, that is totally fine!)
B) What do you think will happen when you die? When family members die? (Please, you can just say what you think, but try and back this up with something (religion/science/void etc... literally anything, but I kind of want this to be deeper than just "well I hope this is what happens", this isn't about what you hope, but what you think)
C) Do you believe that Alan Watts has a valid point? Does our universe come from nothingness, and that all of our petty fears don't truly matter because in the end it's all nothingness? (off topic slightly, but based on how all our achievements are nothing but dust, "monopoly from zeitgeist"+ Show Spoiler +
Personal opinion:
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I use to have a very morbid approach, personally related to my father's death and having no religious beliefs, that it just ended (turned into dust and memory faded) but recently took CWR (comparative world religions) and though I generally am agnostic, and prefer to attempt not to comprehend things I truly can't understand, my outlook (especially after finding this video which put words to all of my feelings) improved greatly.
Do I think I matter? Yes, at this moment, at this time... I want to change the world, go into politics and actually give a damn about people, raise money for charity... But do I think in the "big" picture any of us matter? In our own minds, yes, but generally no... Everything is just a tiny spec on the galactic timeline, almost as useless as keeping 1.00EE-100 places on each separate number while calculating equations.
Do I think I matter? Yes, at this moment, at this time... I want to change the world, go into politics and actually give a damn about people, raise money for charity... But do I think in the "big" picture any of us matter? In our own minds, yes, but generally no... Everything is just a tiny spec on the galactic timeline, almost as useless as keeping 1.00EE-100 places on each separate number while calculating equations.
TL;DR: Ok, so to conclude, follow A, B & C topics (answer all or just one/two) and BE RESPECTFUL PLEASE! (MUST WATCH VIDEO TO POST AND READ GUIDELINES!)
Community Edits!
Here I will add any relevant youtube videos (ones that are related to the beginning/end and I deem are immensely interesting) that anyone adds and/or comments that boast an extremely interesting perspective/idea about any of the three topics (or all)
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Candadar (video about feeling big even while being just a spec in time)
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Jackmcplop(Alan watts "The silent mind" (meditation))
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HawaiianPig(Very interesting quote)
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RodrigoX (Very interesting idea, relating to philosophy)
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Jockmcplop(Alan watts on point of view, past present and how event's are just observed and they don't really exist)
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Veldril clears some misconception on Buddhism
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Aelfric shows "ThereminTrees" video about death, it is very emotional but compelling nonetheless
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Tofucake going extremely indepth about nothingness and taking the meaning to its core
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On May 26 2012 05:18 Candadar wrote:
B) What do you remember from before you were born?
Also:
B) What do you remember from before you were born?
Also:
Jackmcplop(Alan watts "The silent mind" (meditation))
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bJVChTnVHtA#t=50s
(starts 50s in so we don't hear horrid music intro)
"original post (not 50s in)"
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(starts 50s in so we don't hear horrid music intro)
"original post (not 50s in)"
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On May 26 2012 06:41 Jockmcplop wrote:
my favourite alan watts video explaining a very logical deep reason for meditation.
my favourite alan watts video explaining a very logical deep reason for meditation.
HawaiianPig(Very interesting quote)
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On May 26 2012 10:21 HawaiianPig wrote:
If nothing we do matters... then all that matters is what we do.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jU0AR.jpg?1)
If nothing we do matters... then all that matters is what we do.
RodrigoX (Very interesting idea, relating to philosophy)
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On May 26 2012 08:40 RodrigoX wrote:
This video is a very secular perspective. It is essentially making sense of the secular perspective concerning death. However, I think this is not where the argument should be. If you read further, I think an actual argument that will go somewhere will happen.
I'm going to try and be incredibly deep here.
Now, speaking in terms of philosophy, as a human being. You have lots of questions to answer. You have lots of unknowns to define. You have areas of anthropology, cosmology, ontology, epistemology, ethical questions, political questions, economic questions. You have things to figure out. Death is one of them.
Now, the question is, how do we define things like death, life, what is right and wrong, all the above areas. Well, how do we define anything? We define things based on comparisons. Right light, and dark, good and evil, everyone has heard this before. But it does go farther than opposites. How do I know what a BMW is? I compare it to a prius. I really know what a BMW is if I compare it to a horse, a baseball glove. I know if I take gasoline, and compare it to all the things that a car has, I would figure out that gasoline would make the car run. Right, the more things there are, the better I can define something.
So, therefore we argue, that if I was to know about something, It would be best to know one hundred percent of that something. And if everything, helps me define everything, I will only know 100 percent about one individual thing, if I know every single individual thing and use each one to compare them to each other.
So thus comes into question, is that where do "things" end. Now we come into realms where people should know something. Right, do we end things at the ends of human perception (the 5 senses (6 if you count body language) or do we go beyond the senses, and go into outside of human perception, the supernatural, where God, Nirvana among other religions would exist and end "things" there.
This is now where Im getting back to the first paragraph. People get very very confused when arguing or debating. You know, people debate whether gays should marry or not. Essentially that is going to get you nowhere, if a Christian is taking the identity and characteristics of God, and comparing them to the concept of homosexuality, and an atheist isn't. You have completely different definitions of the concept of homosexuality, and it is impossible to get anywhere if you are defining things differently.
So now, the question really is, where do "things" end. Essentially we just need to know about everything that exists. Right, if there are infinite things, we are never going to get a 100 percent definition of something. An "end" can happen anywhere. Lets say that there is just a proton and an atom in the universe, and that is all that exists. Right I would know 100 percent of the universe. I know a proton makes up an atom and an atom is made up of protons. That is all I could possibly know in the universe. And thats the goal really.
So to skip a few steps, we can say, that I can have 100 percent of a definition in a closed system. Right, so essentially, that I could just use my 5 senses, the limit of my human perception and succeed in knowing everything. I would know the right answer to all ethical questions because i compared each to everything in the universe, and what works and what doesn't. So we don't need more than our senses to have 100 percent of a definition. So saying that, why would we go outside of our senses, giving faith (which is not an optimal thing to do) that there is a supernatural plain of existence (a very complicated subject speaking of) that I can use to define things, when I could not do the action of faith, which is suboptimal to have a definitive answer to the question of death, life, and right and wrong.
This video is a very secular perspective. It is essentially making sense of the secular perspective concerning death. However, I think this is not where the argument should be. If you read further, I think an actual argument that will go somewhere will happen.
I'm going to try and be incredibly deep here.
Now, speaking in terms of philosophy, as a human being. You have lots of questions to answer. You have lots of unknowns to define. You have areas of anthropology, cosmology, ontology, epistemology, ethical questions, political questions, economic questions. You have things to figure out. Death is one of them.
Now, the question is, how do we define things like death, life, what is right and wrong, all the above areas. Well, how do we define anything? We define things based on comparisons. Right light, and dark, good and evil, everyone has heard this before. But it does go farther than opposites. How do I know what a BMW is? I compare it to a prius. I really know what a BMW is if I compare it to a horse, a baseball glove. I know if I take gasoline, and compare it to all the things that a car has, I would figure out that gasoline would make the car run. Right, the more things there are, the better I can define something.
So, therefore we argue, that if I was to know about something, It would be best to know one hundred percent of that something. And if everything, helps me define everything, I will only know 100 percent about one individual thing, if I know every single individual thing and use each one to compare them to each other.
So thus comes into question, is that where do "things" end. Now we come into realms where people should know something. Right, do we end things at the ends of human perception (the 5 senses (6 if you count body language) or do we go beyond the senses, and go into outside of human perception, the supernatural, where God, Nirvana among other religions would exist and end "things" there.
This is now where Im getting back to the first paragraph. People get very very confused when arguing or debating. You know, people debate whether gays should marry or not. Essentially that is going to get you nowhere, if a Christian is taking the identity and characteristics of God, and comparing them to the concept of homosexuality, and an atheist isn't. You have completely different definitions of the concept of homosexuality, and it is impossible to get anywhere if you are defining things differently.
So now, the question really is, where do "things" end. Essentially we just need to know about everything that exists. Right, if there are infinite things, we are never going to get a 100 percent definition of something. An "end" can happen anywhere. Lets say that there is just a proton and an atom in the universe, and that is all that exists. Right I would know 100 percent of the universe. I know a proton makes up an atom and an atom is made up of protons. That is all I could possibly know in the universe. And thats the goal really.
So to skip a few steps, we can say, that I can have 100 percent of a definition in a closed system. Right, so essentially, that I could just use my 5 senses, the limit of my human perception and succeed in knowing everything. I would know the right answer to all ethical questions because i compared each to everything in the universe, and what works and what doesn't. So we don't need more than our senses to have 100 percent of a definition. So saying that, why would we go outside of our senses, giving faith (which is not an optimal thing to do) that there is a supernatural plain of existence (a very complicated subject speaking of) that I can use to define things, when I could not do the action of faith, which is suboptimal to have a definitive answer to the question of death, life, and right and wrong.
Jockmcplop(Alan watts on point of view, past present and how event's are just observed and they don't really exist)
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On May 26 2012 22:49 Jockmcplop wrote:
I think its best to refer back to Alan Watts on this point maybe....
There is some VERY conrtaversial thinking in this piece
I think its best to refer back to Alan Watts on this point maybe....
There is some VERY conrtaversial thinking in this piece
Veldril clears some misconception on Buddhism
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On May 29 2012 12:32 Veldril wrote:
Wow, I didn't know that there are people who study about Bhuddism in TL.
As a Theravada Buddhist, I think there's some misconception I need to clarify first. I will try not going too deep.
1. The concept of "Nothingness" comes from the "Three Nature of Things (Tri-Lakkhana)" in Bhuddism. We believe that everything is "Uncertainty (anicca)", "Spontaneosly Change (Dhukka, which can be interpreted as Suffering too but there's more meaning than that)", and "Uncontrollable (Anatta, which also means non-self)". As things are constantly changing without "ourselves" being able to control, the concept of "Sunyatta" or "Nothingness" is used to described this state of "emptiness" of the world.
It also means the state of mind when a person reaches a realization of "the world is empty of self or anything pertaining to self".
2. Meditation is not a way of escaping the reality. Rather, it is about facing the reality while being fully concious. To explain more, there is two types of meditation, Samatha meditation, and Vipassana meditation. The former is about sharpening the mind to the finest point, which is not really applicable in the real life. Vipassana, on the other hand, is about staying "concious" and realize what is happening in the present in the finest detail. For example, when doing Vipassana meditaion, one would realize how the air we breath come in and out, which part of the body expand when we inhale, which part we ache, etc. The key is that we realize those things and then look at how it happen, staying there and then fade away.
How this tie to the concept of "nothingness"? Well, there's a saying for Bhuddhist that "to live in the present", which means being concious of the present in the finest detail. And meditation is used to realize step by step how things are "nothingness". It's something you have to tried an experience by yourself but you will realize when trying that you can't stop the part we ache even you scream so lound within yourselve, but it will fade away in time without being controlled at all.
3. Bhuddism at its core is about trying to get rid of concept of "self" or "belonging to self".
Now to OP's questions:
A.) Nothingness is a part of Nibbana and so it's the key part of Bhuddism. I experince a part of it once during my meditation practice camp so I would say I have to believe in it
B.) I don't think about "death" as much because as I said above, it is more important to try to live in the present. I believe there's no point thinking about it and trying to practice our mind to stay concious all of the time is more important.
C.) It's really hard to describe but I see "nothingness" in term of "lack of self of everything" because we cannot really control things, both ourselves and surrounding. Things have value because we assign those values to it, and that's all.
Wow, I didn't know that there are people who study about Bhuddism in TL.
As a Theravada Buddhist, I think there's some misconception I need to clarify first. I will try not going too deep.
1. The concept of "Nothingness" comes from the "Three Nature of Things (Tri-Lakkhana)" in Bhuddism. We believe that everything is "Uncertainty (anicca)", "Spontaneosly Change (Dhukka, which can be interpreted as Suffering too but there's more meaning than that)", and "Uncontrollable (Anatta, which also means non-self)". As things are constantly changing without "ourselves" being able to control, the concept of "Sunyatta" or "Nothingness" is used to described this state of "emptiness" of the world.
It also means the state of mind when a person reaches a realization of "the world is empty of self or anything pertaining to self".
2. Meditation is not a way of escaping the reality. Rather, it is about facing the reality while being fully concious. To explain more, there is two types of meditation, Samatha meditation, and Vipassana meditation. The former is about sharpening the mind to the finest point, which is not really applicable in the real life. Vipassana, on the other hand, is about staying "concious" and realize what is happening in the present in the finest detail. For example, when doing Vipassana meditaion, one would realize how the air we breath come in and out, which part of the body expand when we inhale, which part we ache, etc. The key is that we realize those things and then look at how it happen, staying there and then fade away.
How this tie to the concept of "nothingness"? Well, there's a saying for Bhuddhist that "to live in the present", which means being concious of the present in the finest detail. And meditation is used to realize step by step how things are "nothingness". It's something you have to tried an experience by yourself but you will realize when trying that you can't stop the part we ache even you scream so lound within yourselve, but it will fade away in time without being controlled at all.
3. Bhuddism at its core is about trying to get rid of concept of "self" or "belonging to self".
Now to OP's questions:
A.) Nothingness is a part of Nibbana and so it's the key part of Bhuddism. I experince a part of it once during my meditation practice camp so I would say I have to believe in it
B.) I don't think about "death" as much because as I said above, it is more important to try to live in the present. I believe there's no point thinking about it and trying to practice our mind to stay concious all of the time is more important.
C.) It's really hard to describe but I see "nothingness" in term of "lack of self of everything" because we cannot really control things, both ourselves and surrounding. Things have value because we assign those values to it, and that's all.
Aelfric shows "ThereminTrees" video about death, it is very emotional but compelling nonetheless
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On May 29 2012 03:37 Aelfric wrote:
I think it would be useful to share ThereminTrees' videos about death:
I think it would be useful to share ThereminTrees' videos about death:
Tofucake going extremely indepth about nothingness and taking the meaning to its core
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On May 30 2012 05:43 tofucake wrote:
Any Book or Novel entries are edited in here, with the users name/book! Post away!
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MAJOR THREAD EDIT ON PMING ME ABOUT DETAILS REGARDING THIS THREAD, PLEASE READ.
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Fuck you, next time be more respectful and take the bickering to pms instead of derailing your own thread moron.
sent by sovernPosts such as this are not to be sent please, it really has no taste, I mean first this poster who's named Sovern decides to argue in a thread about others beliefs when it's completely against the threads policy and implies he know the answers(or at least insinuates by exclaiming others are so ridiculous)... So he has trouble reading in general obviously, continuing, than he posts about respect while starting his PM "fuck you" which is entirely hypocritical and then implies me (the guy who started, and has been constantly updating and watching the threads progress) as derailing this thread...
So again, as a disclaimer, all posters who post here please if you want me to add content PM ME! if you want to voice your opinion about how I am moderating my own thread, please PM ME! if you want to act like an idiot and throw shit at the walls, this isn't your cage curious george, thank you, Nemesis3.
