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April 3rd: added two replays (me vs AI and me vs Mojo, see below)
April 1st: published as 0.2 on NA and SEA by Akinokaze
March 31st: updated to 0.2e3 and published as 0.2 on EU
In-Game Description:
A long island in a wide and murky stream deep inside the jungle. A couple of rusty old steel structures feel seemlessly woven into the rocky surface. Two different attack paths lead up to each main base past highground Xel'Naga towers.
Introduction/Inspiration:
This is my second 1v1 melee map for SC2. I like modern ruins and forest/jungle settings so I decided to make a map with modern ruins in a jungle, except stuff is still up and running so technically the structures in this map are not ruins yet. ^^
Pictures (Aesthetics):
+ Show Spoiler +
Pictures (Gameplay):
+ Show Spoiler [Analyzer Summaries] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analyzer Grid/Pathing] +
Data (Aesthetics):
- Texture Set: Zhakul'Das Grass, Shakuras Sand/Dirt Cracked/Rock Cracked, Braxis Alpha Plates/wrecked Plates/Rust/Metal
- Cliff Type: Braxis Alpha Manmade, Zhakul'Das Organic
- Lighting: Custom
- Fog: No
- Clouds: some white ones
- Water: modified Zhakul'Das
- Number of Doodads: 2130
Data (Gameplay):
Playable Bounds: 176x144
Number of Starting Positions: 2
Number of Bases: 12, eight mineral patches and two geysers on each
Number of XWT's: 2
Number of Rocks: 4, splitting/narrowing wide ramps leading to middle high ground
Main Choke <-> Main Choke Distance(s): to be measured
Nat Choke <-> Nat Choke Distance(s): to be measured
Mineral/Gas Counts: 12000/5000 on each base
Number of Resources / (Map Width * Map Height): 204000 / 176x144 = 8.05
Changed Data: Lighting
Change Log:
+ Show Spoiler +v0.2e(first published)- de-choked the north/south entrances of third bases by moving the ramps leading up to the towers, placed the rocks on the east/west ramps back to where they were before and added access to the towers for the attacking party
- added doodads, texturing and critters
- painted the pathing layer
- created banner
v0.2d- reworked/moved fifth and area around fifth/paths to fourth and sixth from there
- removed high ramp in the process of reworking the fifth
- changed access to watch towers to favor defender at third
- slightly moved third and added extra choke cliffs near north/south entrance of third
- slightly moved sixth
v0.2c- raised sixth base to high ground and added ramped path through fifth to sixth
- added two more line of sight blockers in the central high ground near the the watch towers
- added basic shorelines of the wide stream which flows around the island
- a couple of aesthetic changes/doodads here and there
- fixed water flow direction and speed to look more realistic
v0.2b- reworked placement/openness and cliff levels of the fourth and fifth bases (which also brought some changes to the main middle high ground with it)
v0.2a(first public preview) - laid down basic structure and layout
- added minimal texturing to visually separate major cliff levels
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Your mood mockup is sooooo beautiful o___o.
On gameplay, I think you need to rethink your expansion layout. Like this, each time I manage to establish a base after my natural, I have another free one just beside it.
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3th and 4th expo have a very weird placement :O
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You could push the tower peninsulas a bit more, separating the 3rd and 4rth a little, and possible change height of the 5th or 6th, making one easier/harder to defend.
As it is, especially the 5th and 6th bases are really more of one big base.
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@ArcticRaven and Duvon: Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, I think I'll do something about the 4th and the 6th to make them not come for free with the 3rd and 5th.
On March 12 2012 02:57 algue wrote:
3th and 4th expo have a very weird placement :O What exactly do you mean by "weird"? Please clarify and also, do you really mean 3rd and 4th or 5th and 6th?
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I agree with a few above..the 3rd,4th,5th,6th layout could be reconfigured a bit...but the overall layout looks neat and aesthetically your mock-up is great! Would love to see this fleshed out...
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By weird I mean that there is nothing between these two expo. They are in the same area.
Look at all the map that have been made , there is never two bases next to each other with no cliff/ ramp / gap destructible rocks etc.
I'm not used with map making psychology but I think there is a reason to that ^^
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Your map looks very aesthetically beautiful and I like the idea behind the expand patterns.
However, I think that there could be a few issues with expansion/base placement.
Are the main bases siegeable from the cliffs behind it? (The ones right between the high ground and the double expo area)
Are the cliffs (the extended strips from the main high ground) behind the top left and bottom right expansions siegeable or have unit-pathing? (can you put units up there?)
The mutalisk harass from the main to any other base could be extremely good, or any other air harass, due to the long distances from the mineral line in the main to your natural and 3rd,4th bases, and how exposed it is.
The ramp from the natural seems oddly placed, and does not seem like Forge Fast Expand is too viable unless you make the wall further away.
The 3rd and 4th bases might be better if there was some sort of gap or pathing block, water, etc between them. They feel very open, as do the 5th and 6th bases.
Other than that, I really think that this could be an interesting map to play on.
Good Luck in your mapmaking!!
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that mockup looks super awesome!
I'm going to have to echo everyone else who is saying the 4th and 6th look easy to take. shouldn't be too tough to use some of that dead space in the corners to make a more interesting layout for those bases though.
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Thanks hillman and thanks algue for the clarification.
@blizzfreak:Thank you for your detailed comment, the praise and the good luck. I had already finished my mapping session for today before I read your post though, so I haven't addressed the issues you pointed out yet.
Now to answer your questions:
On March 13 2012 00:08 blizzfreak wrote:Are the main bases siegeable from the cliffs behind it? (The ones right between the high ground and the double expo area) Currently a siege tank could get close enough but those cliffs around the main and the natural and some space beyond that on the low ground near those ventilation platforms will be painted impassable and decorated with doodads in the first playable version, so tanks won't be able to come close enough to besiege the main mineral lines.
On March 13 2012 00:08 blizzfreak wrote:Are the cliffs (the extended strips from the main high ground) behind the top left and bottom right expansions siegeable or have unit-pathing? (can you put units up there?) In case you're referring to the ones which look a bit like circle cross-sections then no, those won't be passable (and they're gone in the newest version (the fifth is sitting on a steel plateau there now). I'm thinking of leaving a small patch open (near the top left, bottom right of the steel plateaus) as a Reaper/Colossus cliff-pathing-backdoor though.
On March 13 2012 00:08 blizzfreak wrote:The mutalisk harass from the main to any other base could be extremely good, or any other air harass, due to the long distances from the mineral line in the main to your natural and 3rd,4th bases, and how exposed it is. Is that a good or a bad thing for the balance?
On March 13 2012 00:08 blizzfreak wrote:The ramp from the natural seems oddly placed, and does not seem like Forge Fast Expand is too viable unless you make the wall further away. I specifically checked for this by placing buildings in the editor, because this was a problem on my first map as well. I'll check it again.
On March 13 2012 00:08 blizzfreak wrote:The 3rd and 4th bases might be better if there was some sort of gap or pathing block, water, etc between them. They feel very open, as do the 5th and 6th bases. This has been radically changed in todays iteration 0.2b.
I will update the main post with new version images now...
edit/append: updated! and also (didn't see that new comment while I was busy writing the long reply):
On March 13 2012 01:34 TheFish7 wrote:
that mockup looks super awesome!
I'm going to have to echo everyone else who is saying the 4th and 6th look easy to take. shouldn't be too tough to use some of that dead space in the corners to make a more interesting layout for those bases though. Thank you and yeah those bases needed a good fix, maybe still need more, we'll see. 
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Ah, we meet again Baumvieh Unfortunately I don't have the time to provide any analysis at this time as it's getting late but the advice given so far on expansion layout is sound and should definitely be taken into consideration. It doesn't look quite as promising as Oceanic Mountain does in its current state but with your iterative approach to map making I'm sure it'll turn out fine
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Yeah, I was already wondering when you'd show up and comment Akinokaze ^^. (I might even make more changes to Oceanic Mountain as well, because players still complain about a few things on that one but for now all my focus will be on this new map until it hits the first playable version.)
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I definately like the change.
One thin I'm worried about he 5th base is 2 levels higher than the ground? I've never seen a ramp go up two levels like that, so I'm wondering if units will be able to see up the ramp, and if that might cause some issues with parking seige units at the top
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I like how you added high ground to the 4th and 5th base expansions. I think it will make it a more viable macro map.
Now that I look at it again, the air harass should work as it does on other maps, with the exception of the main being a bit more open.
One suggestion would be to maybe change the watchtowers a bit, as they don't really cover any "drop" path for you to spot incoming drops, etc. It could just be my opinion because I have trouble dealing with air harass in real game
If you are planning on updating the middle, maybe an attack path leading from the 6th base low ground to the 3rd bases. I'm just thinking in terms of Zerg run-bys and the ability to zone well with the current watchtower placement. It could be difficult to get counter-attacks off this way.
Keep up the good work! I'm interested to see how you do the doodads because the mock up looks beautiful!
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On March 13 2012 02:15 TheFish7 wrote:
I definately like the change.
One thin I'm worried about he 5th base is 2 levels higher than the ground? I've never seen a ramp go up two levels like that, so I'm wondering if units will be able to see up the ramp, and if that might cause some issues with parking seige units at the top
Without air spotters, a unit would have to go 3/4 up the ramp before seeing the top, could be a potential issue I agree. I'm not actually sure why the 5th base needs to raised at all actually, any particular reasoning behind this?
The third base still seems too vulnerable, especially in XvZ where taking a relatively quick third (~10min) will be next to impossible. This could result in some stale match ups where X is forced to build up a sizable army on two base while Z is free to take the map. With control of the watch tower/vision of the two ramps coming in, an army could feasibly hold the third indefinitely, but this creates an opening for a muta attack or doom drop into the rather conveniently placed main.
Overall, the maps feels a bit larger than necessary and is a bit restrictive in what you can do. In its current state, the map favors either heavy turtling or harass based strategies (particularly by air), with little room in between.
Edit: The area in between the 5th and 6th outer bases currently serve no use at all (except as a staging area for doom drops maybe...or proxies). While a lot of maps have areas that simply aren't traversed in most games, I'm of the belief that allowing the player to incorporate the entire map into their strategy results in more diverse and entertaining games
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Is this a giant pylon turned 45 degrees clockwise? Kinda looks like one if you think about it.
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On March 14 2012 02:35 Akinokaze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 02:15 TheFish7 wrote:
I definately like the change.
One thin I'm worried about he 5th base is 2 levels higher than the ground? I've never seen a ramp go up two levels like that, so I'm wondering if units will be able to see up the ramp, and if that might cause some issues with parking seige units at the top Without air spotters, a unit would have to go 3/4 up the ramp before seeing the top, could be a potential issue I agree. I'm not actually sure why the 5th base needs to raised at all actually, any particular reasoning behind this? To separate the fifth from the sixth and to give more interesting paths to take from the main highground which spans across the center of the map. I'm thinking about raising the sixth as well but only by one cliff level and connecting it to the fifth to eliminate the high ramp (but actually I think that a high ramp like that could be interesting).
On March 14 2012 02:35 Akinokaze wrote:
The third base still seems too vulnerable, especially in XvZ where taking a relatively quick third (~10min) will be next to impossible. This could result in some stale match ups where X is forced to build up a sizable army on two base while Z is free to take the map. With control of the watch tower/vision of the two ramps coming in, an army could feasibly hold the third indefinitely, but this creates an opening for a muta attack or doom drop into the rather conveniently placed main. I'll see what I can do about that though I can already hear the 'too chokey' comments ringing through my head if I go ahead and make the third more easy to defend. I also think that a player could easily opt' to take the fourth as the third because that's easier to defend (or even the fifth, which would be very easy to defend if it stays on the high ground with the big ramp).
On March 14 2012 02:35 Akinokaze wrote:
Overall, the maps feels a bit larger than necessary and is a bit restrictive in what you can do. In its current state, the map favors either heavy turtling or harass based strategies (particularly by air), with little room in between. I don't think that's true at all, because there are many different paths which can be chosen to move across and about between all bases from third upwards (it's true though that the main and natural support turtleing a bit but that's the case on many other maps as well so it can't be too bad for the overall balance, I hope).
On March 14 2012 02:35 Akinokaze wrote:Edit: The area in between the 5th and 6th outer bases currently serve no use at all (except as a staging area for doom drops maybe...or proxies). While a lot of maps have areas that simply aren't traversed in most games, I'm of the belief that allowing the player to incorporate the entire map into their strategy results in more diverse and entertaining games Some areas of the map which appear empty and pointless right now will later be occupied with decorative terrain and doodads.
On March 14 2012 11:44 Chargelot wrote:
Is this a giant pylon turned 45 degrees clockwise? Kinda looks like one if you think about it. That was not intentional but now that you mentioned it, I can see that too, heh.
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On March 14 2012 21:50 Baumvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 02:35 Akinokaze wrote:On March 13 2012 02:15 TheFish7 wrote:
I definately like the change.
One thin I'm worried about he 5th base is 2 levels higher than the ground? I've never seen a ramp go up two levels like that, so I'm wondering if units will be able to see up the ramp, and if that might cause some issues with parking seige units at the top Without air spotters, a unit would have to go 3/4 up the ramp before seeing the top, could be a potential issue I agree. I'm not actually sure why the 5th base needs to raised at all actually, any particular reasoning behind this? To separate the fifth from the sixth and to give more interesting paths to take from the main highground which spans across the center of the map. I'm thinking about raising the sixth as well but only by one cliff level and connecting it to the fifth to eliminate the high ramp (but actually I think that a high ramp like that could be interesting).
I personally do like the idea of keeping the high ramp as well, it's out of the way enough that it won't have a impact on the game until the base their is actually taken. I think the cardinal ramps need to go though, possibly angle the expo towards the center as well.
On March 14 2012 21:50 Baumvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 02:35 Akinokaze wrote:
The third base still seems too vulnerable, especially in XvZ where taking a relatively quick third (~10min) will be next to impossible. This could result in some stale match ups where X is forced to build up a sizable army on two base while Z is free to take the map. With control of the watch tower/vision of the two ramps coming in, an army could feasibly hold the third indefinitely, but this creates an opening for a muta attack or doom drop into the rather conveniently placed main. I'll see what I can do about that though I can already hear the 'too chokey' comments ringing through my head if I go ahead and make the third more easy to defend. I also think that a player could easily opt' to take the fourth as the third because that's easier to defend (or even the fifth, which would be very easy to defend if it stays on the high ground with the big ramp).
I'm actually not sure anymore if the third is too hard to take or not  It's definitely not an expansion layout I'm used to seeing as it's out in the open with three paths of leading to it (the only other maps that come to mind with three-path-thirds are Cloud Kingdom, which pulls it off quite well, and Jungle Basin). That being said the earliest I think P or T could take the third vs Z would be at around 13-14min. Protoss would need 3-4 Colossi while Terran would have to Tank push with bunkers.
Taking the fourth as your third would only be an option for Z I think. It's easier to defend, but only if your army is already in place. You'd still want to keep your army around the natural third anyway to defend the center path so the benefits would be marginal at best imo.
On March 14 2012 21:50 Baumvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 02:35 Akinokaze wrote:
Overall, the maps feels a bit larger than necessary and is a bit restrictive in what you can do. In its current state, the map favors either heavy turtling or harass based strategies (particularly by air), with little room in between. I don't think that's true at all, because there are many different paths which can be chosen to move across and about between all bases from third upwards (it's true though that the main and natural support turtleing a bit but that's the case on many other maps as well so it can't be too bad for the overall balance, I hope).
I was mostly thinking about XvZ when I wrote this. PvT and TvT could work out great on this map with all the different paths imo. PvZ and TvZ on the other hand look rather shaky. The third is a bit hard to take during the mid game when your AoE is still weak. Once you've built up your army to say 4 Colossi or 8 Tanks though you can effectively lock down the center of the map and take the other three expos on your side of the map.
On March 14 2012 21:50 Baumvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 02:35 Akinokaze wrote:Edit: The area in between the 5th and 6th outer bases currently serve no use at all (except as a staging area for doom drops maybe...or proxies). While a lot of maps have areas that simply aren't traversed in most games, I'm of the belief that allowing the player to incorporate the entire map into their strategy results in more diverse and entertaining games Some areas of the map which appear empty and pointless right now will later be occupied with decorative terrain and doodads.
Decorative terrain and doodads don't exactly make an area more useful than it already is Just think about how armies will move around the map and you'll see that almost all movement will be exclusively down the center high ground strip and surrounding ramps until late late game. Balance issues asides, I think the ladder maps are good of examples of how you can make the most out of your map space. With the exception of neutral spawns and naturals on 4-player maps, almost all of the bases on the ladder lie along or are very close to a viable attack path.
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updated to 0.2c (see updated main post)
On March 13 2012 04:57 blizzfreak wrote:If you are planning on updating the middle, maybe an attack path leading from the 6th base low ground to the 3rd bases. I'm just thinking in terms of Zerg run-bys and the ability to zone well with the current watchtower placement. It could be difficult to get counter-attacks off this way.
Keep up the good work! I'm interested to see how you do the doodads because the mock up looks beautiful! Thanks. I don't know if that addititional ground path from the sixth to third is necessary or good. I think it's not necessary because it would be pretty much right next to the path which is already there (the one that leads across the two ramps forming a rotated V).
@Akinokaze: Thanks for all the detailed feedback, I tried to fix some of the things you mentioned in the latest iteration (0.2c). I didn't mean to say that a pointless area could be fixed by making it pretty though, I meant to say that it was my intention from the beginning on not to use that particular area and that it would stay unused (well there is a path there now and I will keep allowing cliff walking around that ramp).
Tomorrow I'll start decorating and texturing and I will think about making the access to the third more chokey (but I still think it already isn't all that open and there are only two direct paths towards it ... maybe extending the rocky cliff below the towers a tiny bit towards the third would help).
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I think some bases are still too cramped (Upper left) Try to spread out more, that way you can fill the airspace, too.
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