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It has now come to our 6th map design topic for melee map-making. For the next few days, let's discuss choke points. Choke points are one of the prime features in the metagame, and they always will be. They shape the way the game is played. They create advantages and disadvantages. They force players to position properly, and they can help you protect a particular base, and so on. Choke points have all kinds of perks that make the game more strategic and tactical, which is why it's important to understand how to utilize them into your map to keep the game fresh while still retaining the current state of the metagame.
This is a bit of a difficult topic to work with, because there are several more questions I could ask but they would be hard to comprehend or answer. Forgive me if I missed any important details, but I added an optional question in the mix to let mappers voice any more perspectives or opinions on the topic if they wish. Basically I boiled down to five general questions that should give new mappers at least a decent feel of what choke points and openness are when making a map.
***NOTE: A choke point can be defined as an entrance into a base, whether it be a ramp or a flat choke. It can also be defined as the general open space (or 'openness') around your map.
So, my dear fellow Map-makers, let's answer a few questions about choke points for anyone who might be interested in melee map-making. I don't want to keep these threads for map-maker answers only however... any discussion on the topic matters!
+ Show Spoiler [What are these threads about anyways?] +
For anyone who is unaware, these map design questions are specifically for map-makers to gather and give their perspectives and feedback on melee map design according to each topic. This has nothing to do with gameplay balance or player perspectives, but for map-maker's opinions and thoughts. In the end I'll make a nice collaboration thread containing all the topics ^^
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Understanding: Choke Points
• We've heard mappers and players say that a map is "too chokey." What does this mean?
• Why is having an elevated ramp into your main base better than a flat choke?
• How wide, or open, should the choke into your natural be? What about your third?
• "Maps can be wide open in the middle as long as you have chokes into every base." What do you think of this statement?
• Where do you generally want the bigger choke points, or openness, on your map?
• (Optional): Do you have anything you would like to add concerning choke points and map-making?
• (Optional): Please provide at least one example of a map that utilizes good chokes (and/or openness) all throughout the map, ensuring its playability in the early, mid, and late game altogether. Also, please provide a bad example where chokes are not properly used or placed.
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My opinions:
• We've heard mappers and players say that a map is "too chokey." What does this mean?
It means that the main attack paths have too many thin passageways in it. Meaning a player can easily start standing behind the choke, so enemy does not ever want to push trough that choke. If chokes are too frequent, its too easy to stop an enemy army moving trough. Also vs zerg, especially the ones that goes muta ling bane, players keeping army on a choke makes them unteachable, or if there is always a choke nearby, players can always kite the zerg army to the choke which is unfair for zerg.
• Why is having an elevated ramp into your main base better than a flat choke?
Many complain that early aggression is too strong in SC2. Elevated ramps make defending early game aggression easier in almost every match up.
TvZ: If there were no ramp, zergs could shoot baracks and supply depots in wall for free with roaches in early game. But with ramp they need to come into range of marines behind the wall to gain vision.
TvP: Same but stalkers and sentries instead of roaches.
TvT: With ramp you can place your marines in the edges of the ramp so they gain free shots at enemy marines that are trying to power trough before enemy gets vision to shoot back.
PvZ: Same as in TvZ, but this really does not matter at all because a zerg never attacks a protoss on one base anyway.
PvP: Most impact on this match up. If there is no ramp then enemy can warp in or blink units trough the choke even if you forcefield the ramp. If there is ramp then one forcefield is enough to deny all vision.
PvT: With ramp you can hold position zealots right above the ramp, so enemy marines that walk up are greeted with zealots right in their face when they get vision.
ZvZ: Cant think how it helps here.
ZvP: Does not matter as zerg cant go and defend main behind choke anyway and leave natural. In maps with natural behind main zergs really can place spine above ramp, and they get a few extra shots before protoss gains vision for their ranged units.
ZvT: With ramp zerg can place queens on hold position on top of ramp so helions need to come in range of queens to get vision to shoot at them. With flat choke the helions can just outrange the queens.
• How wide, or open, should the choke into your natural be? What about your third?
I like macro maps so I like it when natural choke can be walled with 3 or 4 gates or barracks. Choke to third should be 4-6 gates or barracks wide.
• "Maps can be wide open in the middle as long as you have chokes into every base." What do you think of this statement?
This is correct if you there are also other viable attacks paths in late game except right trough middle. Even though I don't like Shattered Temple overall, it is a map where this is done right.
• Where do you generally want the bigger choke points, or openness, on your map?
Open area should be right after the choke to bases. This is because especially in mid-lategame zerg does not usually want to fight enemies in a choke, so open area after choke to bases acts as zergs defensive prime area.
• (Optional): Please provide at least one example of a map that utilizes good chokes (and/or openness) all throughout the map, ensuring its playability in the early, mid, and late game altogether. Also, please provide a bad example where chokes are not properly used or placed.
Good:
![[image loading]](http://us.media3.battle.net/cms/gallery/TEM368DBG88N1330144233108.jpg)
Small choke to natural, but right after it comes an open area which is good place for zergs to engage. Same goes for the 3rd base. Also the middle has alot of those big structures that allows wall hugging for armies pushing trough so surrounding them is not easy, but possible. A feature I like alot.
Bad:
![[image loading]](http://www.sc2castsfinder.com/maps/400px-Slag_Pits.jpg)
Look at that horror. The natural is very hard to defend in early game because the choke is so damn wide there, and main ramp is too far from naturl. Also if you spawn close positions then you can easily use the backdoor as an attack path meaning there is no way a zerg can engage an opponent attack trough that choke.
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- A map could be too chokey if a zerg is forced to engage straight into the enemy and can´t go for surrounds. That makes it just imbalanced. I would actually rather use the term "paths being not connected enough" to describe this matter. If it makes sense.
- Because ramps increase the defenders advantage which leads to longer games which are more enjoyable in most people´s´s opinion. Of course you can very well make flat jokes and increase the defenders advantage with natural-overlapping mains instead. But it affects the balance too, of course. Longer games require more skill, so the better player will win more often.
- I prefer maps like Shakuras plateau. But there is no real perfect way to do it. I mean, different maps should be different. If every map has the same chokes it would become kinda boring.
- As I described in my first point maps should not favor O or T because of the chokes. But if zerg has the option for surrounds and all that maps with more chokes require more skill because you have to do the positioning of your units based on the enviroment.
I don´t see how this affects the chokes into bases but as a general suggestion I´d say that your 3rd should be relatively easy to defend while the 4th and on should be hard to take or, better, hold for P & T. How easy it is to defend is of course not only defined by the chokes. The only thing I can say here is again: Different maps should be different.
- The middle should be open enough for a 200 deathball to cross without losing the shape of a circle. Either the main or the nat should be blockable with one forcefield. Other than that different maps should different.
- NEED MOAR AIR MAPS
- I think Calm Before the Storm is a great map, especially the middle is a perfect example of how a middle should be choked. Shakuras is my favourite map and the only Blizzard map that does not suck. Backdoors into the main/nat don´t fit the metagame.
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On March 11 2012 20:47 Aunvilgod wrote:
- NEED MOAR AIR MAPS
You mean this ?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Debris_Field
Games would be so messy and probably imbalanced !
Broodlord + corruptor + Muta VS Pheonix + Voidray + Mothership Vs Viking
I think this map would have a weird metagame :/
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On March 11 2012 23:06 algue wrote:You mean this ? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Debris_FieldGames would be so messy and probably imbalanced ! Broodlord + corruptor + Muta VS Pheonix + Voidray + Mothership Vs Viking I think this map would have a weird metagame :/
No no, just maps with more airspace. Airspace in the middle of the map. I don´t think this has been explored enough yet.
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What do we mean when we say too choky?
This could mean multiple things:
1) Too many chokes (often occurs when there are lots of ways to move through the map, also if there are lots of dots of removed terrain this can be a result)
2) Chokes are too skinny (lots of chokes that are around two gateways wide... too small, 3 is a pretty good minimum for choke width, with exceptions of course)
3) Chokes are too long. The chokes may be an acceptable width (3 gateways) but they are too long and thus a zerg player is very underpowered moving through that region and a toss will dominate that part of the map.
In order of commonality, it's probably 3 and 1 are tied and then 2.
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We've heard mappers and players say that a map is "too chokey." What does this mean?
Too many tight paths.
Why is having an elevated ramp into your main base better than a flat choke?
4 gate. Tal'darim is/was basically 4 gate every game or else you die. Because you can't block the choke with 1 force field, you can't stop a gateway force from rolling into your main if you have an inferior force. You can't have a small force field blockable choke because then you can wall with basically one building as Terran.
Of course, if you make the choke unbuildable then you can't wall it off and recently, 4 gate has been decreasing even on Tal'Darim if I'm up to date. So yeah, not much reason not to have it flat.
How wide, or open, should the choke into your natural be? What about your third?
2-wide if it's small. 3-wide if you want big. It's up to the rest of the map. Small nat chokes tend to help Toss because they can wall against Zerg, but wider choke points help Terran against Zerg a tad because it's easier to move hellions around. For the third, it doesn't really matter as long as it's not completely open.
"Maps can be wide open in the middle as long as you have chokes into every base." What do you think of this statement?
No.
How is a Protoss army supposed to move out at all? Toss is the race that relies on making chokes the most. That's what they have forcefield for. However, even forcefields can't completely get a good choke point. You need the map to help out. Terran will also have a harder time against a Zerg who can move around as he will.
Where do you generally want the bigger choke points, or openness, on your map?
When you want Zerg to be better.
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EPT
