EPTEDIT: I don't have any good replays right now because lately I've been trying weird stuff like hidden dark shrine. Next time I get in this situation I'll save the replay.
[H]PvP Robo vs. Pheonix
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MilesDavis
United States3 Posts
EDIT: I don't have any good replays right now because lately I've been trying weird stuff like hidden dark shrine. Next time I get in this situation I'll save the replay. | ||
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orangejulius
United States6 Posts
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Animostas
United States568 Posts
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Reborn58
United States238 Posts
Replays will allow further analysis | ||
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oriwarr
Sweden29 Posts
@orangejulius collo transition is not so smart versus a player who opens with phoenix, considering he can scout the collo and make 6-7 phx before you can push out. | ||
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aBstractx
United States287 Posts
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SlackerSC
Australia41 Posts
On March 05 2012 13:58 Reborn58 wrote: Typically 3 gate robo does much better. you can punish phoenix is you chrono out 2 immortals and push, using obs for vision and expand behind. just leaving 3-4 stalkers behind or a few cannons can minimize damage. Replays will allow further analysis I'm not sure this is the best advice.. The phoenix will just lift up your immortals and then it's gateway V gateway. The phoenix player will also be producing out of 3 gates.. I'd say that if you see phoenix you should just take your expansion and defend with zealot stalker plus a few immortals while getting out Archon, charge/blink and upgrades. | ||
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PhysicsAP
8 Posts
while you poke, throw down your tech in response to pheonixes and their composition | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
The best response after you already have your robo would be a twilight council as you are already doing. Camp your probe line with your army and don't let your workers or stray units get picked off. Keep your obs on their army so they don't sneak up on you and keep tabs on if they expanded or not. Honestly though stargate openers pretty much counter robo openers so you should probably ditch the robo opener. IMO going twilight -> robo is much stronger if you favor obs-blink (which is what I assume you are doing because 1-base colossus is a horrible build). You can both fend off and do damage to a phoenix player with a fast obs-blink build, and in mid-diamond you could probably just win with a fast pure blink build by blinking up his ramp if they aren't on the ball with FF'ing their ramp constantly while they chrono out some immortals. | ||
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Espion9
Canada25 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
IMHO, the only "safe" PvP opener is 3 or 4 gates. If you place a robo, stargate, or council and they see this with their initial scouting probe, it's easy for them to just start the direct counter. Thus you cannot place any tech until your first stalker chases the probe away and this is now too late to beat 4 gate with anything less than 3 gates. PvP is highly random and you can pretty much expect at least half your losses against players of equal skill to be build order losses. There's not much you can do about it. There are tons of risky builds like second gas at 17 supply into 1 or 2 gate tech, 2/3 gate opening with no sentries, 2 gate stargate, 1 gate FE, etc. All these builds either get horribly crushed by 4 gate or allow your opponent to see the tech and build the straight counter. (You can beat 4 gate with 1 gate robo but only if you start the robo before your first stalker is out, which means the opponent will see it and can make a stargate) However, if your opponent went with a "safe" opening like 3 gate with a sentry and delayed gas you are so far ahead with any of these openings it's very hard to lose. For ladder, where opponent don't know your play history, I would strongly recommend just 4 gating every game in PvP. You'll win every time against the risky builds and with some practice you can occasionally steal a game against 3 gate + sentry openings if they make a mistake. | ||
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
On March 05 2012 15:48 Xequecal wrote: If they open stargate against robo you are significantly behind, there is no "good" answer. You can still win, but it's an uphill battle. You can't expand, because they can just push and kill you. If you attack them, they will just park at their easily defended ramp while their phoenix kill all your probes. If you go for blink, they can just expand as soon as they see the twilight council with their phoenix and you won't be able to do anything about it because you've wasted 750/450 (Robo, 1 immortal, council, blink) on stuff that is either now totally worthless or won't pay any dividends until over two minutes from now. your not "behind", you just cant be aggressive against the stargate player. I open robo all the time and when i see stargate, ill make a twilight council and go for blink, you DONT want to overmake stalkers; stargate openers often lead into a robo switch and they will produce non stop immortals if they see you have made way too many stalkers. If the stargate player stays on one base i suggest you do the same; The bigger the armies the more ineffective the phoenix are. However, if you see him expand, your gona neeed to expand as well. Remember your gona need a forge for cannon defense, not only for your mineral lines but also when you see a huge attack coming especially when he decides to attack when your expansion has just been placed down, you want to place some cannons in front of your natural if the stargate player tries to push you. 2-3 Cannons will next to your army will easily deflect any big attack the stargate player will try. i usually open one gate robo, and NO the guy wont see my tech because my BO allows me to get a zealot stalker and its still safe vs 4 gate. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117 ---> this will deflect any 12 gate oriented 4 gates. edit: when you make the first observer and you send it out, you want to make an immortal but with no chronoboost. On most maps your observer will reach his base before the immortal is done, if you see stargate you cancel the immortal. Against anything else its ok to let it finish but its up to you. DO NOT make immortals vs phoenix play, any 4 gate phoenix aggression will most likely kill you, because the immortal is one unit thats worth two stalkers and you'll have other gateway units nullified and the stargate player will have more attacking units. | ||
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Skiblet
South Africa206 Posts
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
On March 05 2012 15:48 Xequecal wrote: If they open stargate against robo you are significantly behind, there is no "good" answer. You can still win, but it's an uphill battle. You can't expand, because they can just push and kill you. If you attack them, they will just park at their easily defended ramp while their phoenix kill all your probes. If you go for blink, they can just expand as soon as they see the twilight council with their phoenix and you won't be able to do anything about it because you've wasted 750/450 (Robo, 1 immortal, council, blink) on stuff that is either now totally worthless or won't pay any dividends until over two minutes from now. IMHO, the only "safe" PvP opener is 3 or 4 gates. If you place a robo, stargate, or council and they see this with their initial scouting probe, it's easy for them to just start the direct counter. Thus you cannot place any tech until your first stalker chases the probe away and this is now too late to beat 4 gate with anything less than 3 gates. PvP is highly random and you can pretty much expect at least half your losses against players of equal skill to be build order losses. There's not much you can do about it. There are tons of risky builds like second gas at 17 supply into 1 or 2 gate tech, 2/3 gate opening with no sentries, 2 gate stargate, 1 gate FE, etc. All these builds either get horribly crushed by 4 gate or allow your opponent to see the tech and build the straight counter. (You can beat 4 gate with 1 gate robo but only if you start the robo before your first stalker is out, which means the opponent will see it and can make a stargate) However, if your opponent went with a "safe" opening like 3 gate with a sentry and delayed gas you are so far ahead with any of these openings it's very hard to lose. For ladder, where opponent don't know your play history, I would strongly recommend just 4 gating every game in PvP. You'll win every time against the risky builds and with some practice you can occasionally steal a game against 3 gate + sentry openings if they make a mistake. You cant be more wrong... Seriously, there is no BIG randomness like there was in PvP before... Like everybody in the thread said: Go twilight, robo if you want to go robo otherwise you're behind ... thats it. If you want to see every post that is wrong in their suggestion (Collosus is the first LOL), look the PvP phoenix Thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296637 Mid Master who open Phoenix EVERY PvP he plays... | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On March 05 2012 15:58 recklessfire wrote: your not "behind", you just cant be aggressive against the stargate player. I open robo all the time and when i see stargate, ill make a twilight council and go for blink, you DONT want to overmake stalkers; stargate openers often lead into a robo switch and they will produce non stop immortals if they see you have made way too many stalkers. If the stargate player stays on one base i suggest you do the same; The bigger the armies the more ineffective the phoenix are. However, if you see him expand, your gona neeed to expand as well. Remember your gona need a forge for cannon defense, not only for your mineral lines but also when you see a huge attack coming especially when he decides to attack when your expansion has just been placed down, you want to place some cannons in front of your natural if the stargate player tries to push you. 2-3 Cannons will next to your army will easily deflect any big attack the stargate player will try. You are extremely behind if your opponent opens stargate against robo. Twilight council into blink is the best response, but it's still far behind. Your opponent will see the council with his phoenix. At this point, he can just expand immediately. What are you going to do? You're 750 minerals and 450 gas behind him. Like you said, you can't possibly break the expo. You can expand yourself once you see him expanding, but you are still far behind. First you have to deal with the problem that at literally any point he can just cancel his expansion, warp in an extra round of units 10 feet away from your natural with those minerals, and walk up and kill you. Second, even if he doesn't do this and you both expand, your expansion will be online significantly later than his, and he is going to get many free probe kills with his phoenix as there is no way you can effectively defend both mineral lines against them. If you're forced to make cannons to defend anything, this puts you even further in the hole as it's more minerals totally wasted. It is certainly possible to win, there's no doubt about that, but you're very behind and need to outplay your opponent significantly or take huge risks and hope you don't get punished. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On March 05 2012 16:09 Yokoblue wrote: You cant be more wrong... Seriously, there is no BIG randomness like there was in PvP before... Like everybody in the thread said: Go twilight, robo if you want to go robo otherwise you're behind ... thats it. If you want to see every post that is wrong in their suggestion (Collosus is the first LOL), look the PvP phoenix Thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296637 Mid Master who open Phoenix EVERY PvP he plays... There's no randomness? How can you claim that? 3 gate twilight is great against stargate, but if your opponent decided he's going to do a risky robo or expansion build that dies to 4 gate, you're just straight up dead. | ||
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
On March 05 2012 16:20 Xequecal wrote: There's no randomness? How can you claim that? 3 gate twilight is great against stargate, but if your opponent decided he's going to do a risky robo or expansion build that dies to 4 gate, you're just straight up dead. Ever heard of Twilight/Robo ?... the build that is neither ahead or behind any build... really... Even Phoenix build is only behind 1 build... and that build is still counterable.. (4 gates blink) since you can always FF until you have your immortals (since if you go phoenix you usually follow with a quick robo) IF PvP was that random... Why are there player who have around 70-75% winrate in the MU ? | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On March 05 2012 16:24 Yokoblue wrote: Ever heard of Twilight/Robo ?... the build that is neither ahead or behind any build... really... Even Phoenix build is only behind 1 build... and that build is still counterable.. (4 gates blink) since you can always FF until you have your immortals (since if you go phoenix you usually follow with a quick robo) IF PvP was that random... Why are there player who have around 70-75% winrate in the MU ? Risky robo first openers absolutely smash twilight/robo. 1 gate robo opening crushes anything except 4 gate and stargate openings. If you place the robo before your first stalker is out, you can even beat 4 gate. However, this allows your opponent to see the robo with his probe, and immediately go for stargate, which is why it doesn't work against good players. A stargate opening loses to twilight first, as well as to any fast expansion build. Of course, the FE can't beat 4 gate and the twilight first can't beat robo first, but like I said, stupidly random. The reason pros can do well in PvP is because pro play is not ladder. If a player is known to open with a risky opening in the matchup, his opponents know this and can easily counter him. This means risky openings are less common and the matchups are more often more fair mirror builds. On ladder, your opponent has no idea if you do risky openings. | ||
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
On March 05 2012 16:30 Xequecal wrote: Risky robo first openers absolutely smash twilight/robo. 1 gate robo opening crushes anything except 4 gate and stargate openings. If you place the robo before your first stalker is out, you can even beat 4 gate. However, this allows your opponent to see the robo with his probe, and immediately go for stargate, which is why it doesn't work against good players. A stargate opening loses to twilight first, as well as to any fast expansion build. Of course, the FE can't beat 4 gate and the twilight first can't beat robo first, but like I said, stupidly random. The reason pros can do well in PvP is because pro play is not ladder. If a player is known to open with a risky opening in the matchup, his opponents know this and can easily counter him. This means risky openings are less common and the matchups are more often more fair mirror builds. On ladder, your opponent has no idea if you do risky openings. Risky Robo openers dont Auto-Win vs Twilight-Robo, if the twilight user only go for zealots instead of a 2x3 stalkers when he sees that you have a really early robo... Stargate doesnt auto lose to twilight first. If you're good with FF and go quick robo after stargate (which you should otherwise you lose to blink all in and dts) you can hold the ramp long enough to get an immortal. Once you have that immortal, hell need to blink on your zealot to enter your base so you can fight him with the immo + zealots + another immortal on the way. Its close but you can. Its not because 1 player went for a tech that he need to attack. All you're saying is that if the player all in you with a "Counter build" you are in deep shit but its not necessarily true. + its not because a player is known to go stargate that hell go... So the other point doesnt make any sense. You can say its random but I really dont think so... Just like people find ZvZ random and its not if you understand it well (Nestea) | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On March 05 2012 15:48 Xequecal wrote: If they open stargate against robo you are significantly behind, there is no "good" answer. You can still win, but it's an uphill battle. You can't expand, because they can just push and kill you. If you attack them, they will just park at their easily defended ramp while their phoenix kill all your probes. If you go for blink, they can just expand as soon as they see the twilight council with their phoenix and you won't be able to do anything about it because you've wasted 750/450 (Robo, 1 immortal, council, blink) on stuff that is either now totally worthless or won't pay any dividends until over two minutes from now. IMHO, the only "safe" PvP opener is 3 or 4 gates. If you place a robo, stargate, or council and they see this with their initial scouting probe, it's easy for them to just start the direct counter. Thus you cannot place any tech until your first stalker chases the probe away and this is now too late to beat 4 gate with anything less than 3 gates. PvP is highly random and you can pretty much expect at least half your losses against players of equal skill to be build order losses. There's not much you can do about it. There are tons of risky builds like second gas at 17 supply into 1 or 2 gate tech, 2/3 gate opening with no sentries, 2 gate stargate, 1 gate FE, etc. All these builds either get horribly crushed by 4 gate or allow your opponent to see the tech and build the straight counter. (You can beat 4 gate with 1 gate robo but only if you start the robo before your first stalker is out, which means the opponent will see it and can make a stargate) However, if your opponent went with a "safe" opening like 3 gate with a sentry and delayed gas you are so far ahead with any of these openings it's very hard to lose. For ladder, where opponent don't know your play history, I would strongly recommend just 4 gating every game in PvP. You'll win every time against the risky builds and with some practice you can occasionally steal a game against 3 gate + sentry openings if they make a mistake. I don't think you've fully explored the various early game options for protoss yet. You can hold a 4-gate with various 2-gate openings (3-stalker, 2-gate early sentry variant, etc.), and getting your tech structure after your first stalker isn't "too late" to stop a 4-gate. There was even a thread about holding a 4-gate with 1-gate posted on these forums a while back. The only time where you need to go at least 3 gates are on maps w/ no ramp. | ||
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