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kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 19:31:42
February 02 2012 22:04 GMT
#1
Are you a Protoss player that wants to play an aggressive macro game against Terran, but can't seem to find a way? Are you sick of going double forge and sitting in your base until 200/200 desperately trying to limit drop damage so that you can kill your opponent with one big A-move at 20 minutes? Have you been frustrated by trying to attack in the mid-game, only to see 4 medivacs swoop in just as you cross the map, and finding that Terran, with repairing bunkers and vikings on cliffs, can hold your attack even with half his army in your base? Are you a Turtle Toss yearning to break free from your shell? Are you done wearing brown and feelin' some plaid?

Reverse that shit!

[image loading]

This guide will describe a style of play that quickly gets upgrades, charge and templar tech on 2 bases, ramping up to an offensive macro mid-game with a guerilla style pressure that starts around 13 minutes and can last the rest of the game. The goal is to simultaneously attack multiple positions, taxing Terran's APM, and punishing him for every tiny mistake he makes. In other words, the goal is to do to Terran what Terran loves to do to Protoss.

Please note that this style is supposed to be fun, and while I think it can also be very strong at high levels, I don't intend for it to be an every-game strategy. It will take some silly losses against ghost timings and faked expansions, and if T knows what you're doing, he can preemptively build vikings to prevent your drops. This is good against standard play, but there are counters.

Build skeleton:

-FE
-defend with zealots and sentries while teching storm and chronoboosting upgrades
-multi-pronged attacks with warp prisms and pylons while taking bases
-templar-focused late game

This style can be played with a wide variety of build orders, but I'll share the one that I prefer.

Opening build order:

13 gate
15 gas
18 core (3 chrono on probes by this point)
19 zealot
22 pylon -- scout! (yes, it's delayed. More on this in a bit)
23 stalker and WG tech (4 chrono total on WG tech)
27 nexus
28 gateway
28 sentry
31 pylon
32 forge
32 zealot (1 chrono)

This is a variant of my 1 gate FE with an early forge. Tho it has only 2 gateways, it's safe against all early pressure, and it gets you more economy than any other safe 1 gate FE.

Because there are no scouting-based deviations in the BO until the forge at ~5:20, there's no need to send an early probe scout. This is great because early probe scouts don't usually get much information anyway, and delaying the scout gives you a mineral boost to hit timings you otherwise couldn't. We'll get all the scouting information we need by parking a probe in Terran's natural by ~5 min, and if the probe confirms that it's safe, a zealot+stalker poke. On some 4 player maps, I scout after core to make sure I find their position early enough to deal with quick marauder pressure and marine+SCV all-ins.

Scouting cues:

-This build is designed to be played against 2+ base Terran bio. It's nice to actually see the command center, but you can't always confirm an expansion because Terran is bullshit and they can deny scouting no matter how early you send your probe. You'll have to make a read if you want to play this style. If your read is wrong, you'll sometimes lose to a fake expansion into cloaked banshees. It happens to everybody.

-See when T leaves his base. There are 3 common early bio pushes that Terrans will do.

#1: 2 marauder pressure. Grab 4 probes and kill this when your sentry pops. If you wait longer, he might get a bunker which will cost you more to kill.

#2: Reactor 2-rax. This attack has ~5-9 marines and 1-2 marauders. It hits your base at ~6 minutes. Kill it after you warp in your 2 units at 6 minutes. Just hit your warp-ins on time and make sure T doesn't sneak a bunker before his army shows up and you'll handle this fine.

#3: Stim timing. This comes a little later than the reactor 2-rax. It's the most all-in of the group, and it's not very scary as long as you've been hitting your warp-ins on time.

-If there's no sign of pressure or expansion by 6 minutes, you should deviate from this build and prepare for banshees and hellion drops. You probably already have a forge, so you might want to get a cannon in each mineral line. If you start your robo a little after 6 minutes, you'll have to run your probes away from a cloaked banshee rush for a few seconds before your observer pops if you don't have cannons. It's not a big problem, but I think the cannons are good if my robo is late.

Teching up:

Build 2 more assimilators (total of 3) while your 2nd zealot builds. WG tech and your 2nd zealot will finish at 5:50, and at 6:00, you will start +1 armor and warp in 2 units. Usually, this will be a zealot and a sentry, but if T is doing a reactor-first 2-rax pressure, you can get a zealot and a stalker or 2 stalkers.

Fill your 2nd and 3rd assimilators ASAP, and constantly produce off of your 2 gates. Unlike most builds that get 3 or 4 gates and warp in units when they see T pushing out, we don't have burst production capacity. Don't skip production rounds! You want to get 3 sentries and then pure zealots. After 3 sentries, this portion of the build assumes constant probe and zealot production.

-twilight @100 gas (you actually have the gas before the 150 minerals if you're macroing well)
-templar archives @ 100% twilight
-+1 ground weapons
-robo
-storm
-observer
-2 templar
-charge and +2 armor
-more gates, a third, and a warp prism (order will be game-specific)
-dark shrine

Chronoboost the crap out of your forge as well as your storm and charge upgrades.

At this point, you want to get to 8 gates and a third base. I recommend adding gates 2 at a time--go to 4, then 6, then 8. How quickly you can take your third will depend on the map, what your opponent is doing, and how favorable any early trades were.

Terran usually waits for medivacs before starting his mid-game aggression which means he typically won't attack before you have storm. If he does, your upgraded zealots and 3 sentries can usually handle the pressure fine. You should know when Terran moves out, so if you're worried about a push (ie a ghost timing), just spam a few cannons. You'll need those cannons (paired with some templar) in the mid- and late-game anyway.

At roughly 13 minutes, you should have 3 bases, +1/+2 upgrades, storm, charge, a dark shrine, a bunch of gates, a robo, and a warp prism. Your base might look something like this:

[image loading]

You're well positioned to head into a late-game fight, and you don't have to attack and do damage. But you will!

The fun part:

This is the stage of the game where you can turn this:

[image loading]
Ho-hum even game

Into this:

[image loading]
Past performance does not necessarily predict future results

Put a probe and a high templar in a warp prism, and fly it around to some remote part of Terran's main as far from his 2nd and 3rd bases as possible. Cross the map with your main army leaving 2 templar at home for defense. You should be a little cautious crossing the map at this point since Terran is likely to be out on the map as well, and you don't want to be caught off guard. Park your prism in T's base, warp in a full round of zealots, and drop the probe to start a pylon while the zealots are warping in. We'd like to have pylons at every corner of Terran's base. Pull the probe back up and convert the prism to transport mode.

When a small army stims in to kill the zealots, you have the option to reinforce either the drop or your main army with your next warp cycle and you also have an option to pop the templar out of the prism to lay down a storm to support your drop. This puts the Terran in a really tough spot. He knows you have an army waiting to attack his front, but he doesn't know how many units he needs to split off from his main force to defend your drop. Is he defending against an 8 chargelot drop or a 16 chargelot drop with a storm or 2?

To make matters worse (for him--awesome for you), your observer should spot how many troops he sends to deal with the drop, and by abusing the warp-in mechanic to pick which position you reinforce, you can make sure that he has always sent too much or too little.

Better yet, Terrans can't kite in multiple positions at once, so by splitting your forces, you actually make his army much weaker in the spot(s) that he's not actively microing. And that's all BEFORE you start warping in DT's to force him to micro scans in addition to moving SCV's, kiting, killing prisms and pylons and lifting buildings.

This multi-pronged attack can be extremely deadly if Terran doesn't nip it in the bud by denying the first warp-ins. I've played games where Terran's were hitting 300 APM and still falling apart. It's great fun.

Transitioning:

This attack is great and it will win a lot of games, but sometimes Terrans will defend. On a map like Entombed Valley, there's not much space to warp in, so your attack might never get off the ground. In those cases, you'll just go straight into a macro style late game with upgraded chargelots and templar tech.

A full discussion of how to play late-game PvT is beyond the scope of this guide, but you can check out Welmu's great guide here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298060

In other cases, you will trade a lot of army for economy, and you'll need to defend 1 big Terran push in order to win. Here, cannons and storms are your friends. By this point, you should have 6+ or so templar spread across your bases gathering energy. Just keep storming and camping near cannons to wear him down and buy time. Eventually, your reinforcements should match his army strength.

If things are still pretty even at this point, head into lategame as discussed above.

Maps:

This build isn't great on all maps. Pro-features include long rush distance, a natural that's easily defended with forcefields, large mains with plenty of air space around the edges, and spread out expansions. Basically, Tal'Darim Altar is the perfect map for this build.

Replays:

http://drop.sc/113174 -- fun win against #70 ranked Season 5 GM
http://drop.sc/101068
http://drop.sc/103641
http://drop.sc/103640
http://drop.sc/103700 -- defending 3 rax all-in with 2 gates
http://drop.sc/103949 -- close loss. my drops got foiled early but did damage later. wound up 1 storm short of a win in the end
http://drop.sc/103948 -- missing early forcefields put me in a bad spot, but we dropped each other all game and I managed to do a little more damage for a narrow win
http://drop.sc/103947 -- solid loss. pro tip: don't lose 10 probes to a reaper backstab. pro tip #2: drop first, then attack front.
http://drop.sc/103946 -- solid win. Terran player after game: "I couldn't kill the damn pylon fast enough"
http://drop.sc/106066 -- better execution than I usually pull off, but DT shrine was late
http://drop.sc/106204 -- fun game. Shows army splitting to defend 10 minute medivac timing, tho I did screw it up a bit. Also shows a good defense after trading army for economy (I killed 40+ workers, but his army was 4x the size of mine afterwards)
http://drop.sc/106564

I'll add more when I get a chance.
netro008
Profile Joined July 2011
19 Posts
February 02 2012 22:08 GMT
#2
nice guide! Gonna go try it out now
FnaticPink
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark324 Posts
February 02 2012 22:17 GMT
#3
my hero <3 bookmarked this : )

Do you have any issues with early medievac timings? Sorry if its in the replays, will watch in the morning! : )
Golbat
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States499 Posts
February 02 2012 22:20 GMT
#4
Sounds like a lot of fun. I've been having trouble with terran, i'll have to try this out.
Like why do u use an oven instead of a fire? Coz its fucking better at cooking, that doesnt mean you want the shit to burn.
Erik.TheRed
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1655 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-02 22:29:41
February 02 2012 22:29 GMT
#5
I'll tell you what, I've been using your 1 gate FE for a long time and I think it's a super solid way to open.

Now I'm getting a new mid-game jacket.

Thanks dude!
"See you space cowboy"
cmen15
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1519 Posts
February 02 2012 22:40 GMT
#6
I will try kcdc but i feel like im going to fail lol. Nonetheless i will try this in my next pvt's!! Thanks again!!!!! : )
Greed leads to just about all losses.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
February 02 2012 22:55 GMT
#7
Have my babies kcdc, i am bored out of my mind in pvt because it's either deathball or allin. This is gonna make the matchup a lot more fun

You mention the timings for your extra gates, third, dt shrine and warp prism change based on what the terran is doing. Could you be more specific? What makes you decide the order in which you get stuff (ghost vs medivac first, 2-4 rax before teching, fast third, double eng bay...)
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
February 02 2012 23:12 GMT
#8
On February 03 2012 07:55 Teoita wrote:
You mention the timings for your extra gates, third, dt shrine and warp prism change based on what the terran is doing. Could you be more specific? What makes you decide the order in which you get stuff (ghost vs medivac first, 2-4 rax before teching, fast third, double eng bay...)


Basically, I like to get my third as early as I think I can defend it. On TDA, that's pretty early. On other maps, it's later.

I get the DT shrine when I feel safe and I have a few HT's. I'd always want to have at least 4 gates before starting my DT shrine, but it could come after 6 or 8 gates. It really depends on the map and how any early trades have gone.

The extra gates come when minerals allow. If I think I can defend an early third, the extra gates will be later. If I'm worried about pressure, I'll slow the third down and get the gates earlier.

Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-02 23:15:05
February 02 2012 23:14 GMT
#9
I would be very glad to see this in a TvP >:-)

I do a marauder FE and get E-Bay at 27 for fast attack upgrade. Once it's done, I have stim, conc, combat shields, and a fair sized army to push with. It's not usually supposed to be a game winner, but I could probably pull it off with a little micro against this bo. I think I push at around 11 minutes, so I wouldn't have any troubles with that Warp Prism unless you manage to defend without getting more units.
goal 888
Profile Joined April 2011
167 Posts
February 02 2012 23:14 GMT
#10
woohoo finally a PvT build where i don't sit in my base for 20 min.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
February 02 2012 23:15 GMT
#11
If any high masters or GM players try this out, it'd be great if you'd post any replays. I don't have the multitasking or APM to really do this style justice, and I'd love to see what players with better mechanics can do with it.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
February 02 2012 23:19 GMT
#12
I am picturing HerO doing this...god the fanboy in me would start squeaking or something.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
TechnoSchaman
Profile Joined October 2010
United States156 Posts
February 02 2012 23:25 GMT
#13
"you can't always confirm an expansion because Terran is bullshit" confirmed that i will be trying this build. love your guides man.
ty
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
February 02 2012 23:45 GMT
#14
I have been trying some builds like this but haven't liked it too much yet.
The fundamental problem I have with this style is that chargelot-ht is just not really great to rush to. It's incredibly gas heavy to get templar so early as you basically need 500-700 gas when the archives finishes (storm + 2-4 templar) which is an awkward amount to save up that early, especially if you need other stuff like upgrades etc. too.
HT are also just too flimsy for defending drop harass early on I think, when you are so spread out and the HT are not where you get dropped you have real trouble fending it off as without enough stalkers and blink they can just drop without risk.

In general I think templar are a lousy tech to go from second to a third, if you've already taken a third early on then HT are great as you can easily switch into them but off 2 base while getting upgrades it's just too hard imo.

Unfortunately chargelot drops are rarely worth the trouble too, inside a terran base they often just do nothing especially as terran will have some units in his main anyway because of their production mechanic. HT drops are great but chargelots drops never seem worth it, I've never seen a really succesful one in a pro game either. Usually they just wind up killing 2 scv's and doing some random damage against some buildings.. It's just terrible how protoss doesn't have any good units to drop..
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-03 00:06:14
February 03 2012 00:05 GMT
#15
Merkwerf, if you're finding that chargelot drops don't work well, you could try this strategy. I play against high masters/low GM on NA ladder, and my 'drops' often do a ton of damage. But I don't really drop so much as I attack multiple positions. My goal is to get pylons all over T's base and to warp in zealots wherever T's army isn't.

And while it's true that templar tech takes a lot of gas, so does colossus tech, and so does double forge. IMO, templar+charge is a million times better than colossus tech for defending drops.
alepoff
Profile Joined January 2012
140 Posts
February 03 2012 00:08 GMT
#16
Oh I'd love it if P's actually try to play real games. Good guide bro =)
let's bounce
lolterzard
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom17 Posts
February 03 2012 00:10 GMT
#17
On February 03 2012 09:05 kcdc wrote:
templar+charge is a million times better than colossus tech for defending drops.


Do you use templar + cannons for drop defence, or warp in when you see it?


durr
Profile Joined April 2010
United States148 Posts
February 03 2012 00:17 GMT
#18
omg finally what i have been looking for im so tied of sitting and defending forever. i see pvt and think ok 30 minute game inc.
thank you for this
MARINES OORAH
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-03 00:27:46
February 03 2012 00:27 GMT
#19
Better yet, Terrans can't kite in multiple spots at once, so by splitting your forces, you actually make his army much weaker in the spot(s) that he's not actively microing. And that's all BEFORE you start warping in DT's to force him to micro scans in addition to moving SCV's, kiting, killing prisms and pylons and lifting buildings.

This multi-pronged attack can be extremely deadly if Terran doesn't nip it in the bud by denying the first warp-ins. I've played games where Terran's were hitting 300 APM and still falling apart. It's great fun.


Interesting point about the kiting. I use this heavy warp in style lategame versus zerg, but didn't feel it would be as viable with Terran... but the more I think about it, it is. It seems like warp prisms may be the great Protoss hope after all. There's always a bit of a worry that it just devolves into epic drop wars.

I feel like the only real counter for terran would be to build PF and turrets in his base, hehe.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
February 03 2012 00:28 GMT
#20
Siiiiiccck, kcdc. I've been working on developing a very similar style lately and this looks awesome!
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