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Hi,
I recently started playing Starcraft 2 again. I'd like to call myself diamond as my profile shows, but I feel like I'm plat. I played a lot in the first 2 seasons and was diamond, but ever since I quit, i've just been coming back every season to play that 1 placement match  . I like that diamond emblem in my prof haha
Anyways, enough about me, now on to my problem with ZvT. Back then ZvT was usually an easy win for me, ling bling muta took care of it. Not even infests. Now I'm puzzled. Today, terrans are crazy with their marine micro and a quick rine tank push at about 9 mins cripples me. First comes hellions for map control, (my lings get owned), next thing, the terran has took his nat and is working on a rine tank army, and ofc the left over hellions in the mix as well (about 4). This shit gets me every time.
How do i take care of this rine tank push?
Here's the replay:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/17373
P.S. Excuse my poor play. Taking the third was a bad decision, I know.
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P.S. you don't have to watch the replay if you know the counter. I'm just providing it for those who want to know what situation I was in.
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the simple answer is if you see a terran get gas at 13 (while the rax is building) then it's going to be hellions, otherwise it will always be 2 rax, either as a rush or as a way to safely get a quick command. From there just adapt according to what his early game plan is.
Against hellions if you like using lings then you will need more queens, so getting like 3-4 queens is pretty safe and easy to do and protects you from small amounts of hellions. 1 spine crawler never hurt either. As long as you can maintain your drone production to safely get you to lair, then you'll be fine. There are so many things you can do but as long you macro, a ling bane only style with baneling speed and burrow for traps will allow for pretty safe 2 base play against 2 base timing pushes from terran. Of course with this style you will need a macro hatch.
Thats a defensive style. If they open gas you can always open with an aggressive style of your own. If you 14g 14p then baneling bust him. If you open 14h or 15h then go roaches and assault him.
there is a really great 15h into roach build on TL I will try to find that transitions really nicely into a macro game.
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after watching the replay, i notice you spend a TON of resources and energy getting roaches up. then the roaches help you accomplish nothing. then i notice after watching the replay again, that you were behind terran on # of workers(if you include mules) the ENTIRE game. i'd say concentrate more on droning, make sure you are safe in your base against hellion play, and get your economy booming while transitioning to mutalisks like you did and you will have like twice as many mutas, and if you never miss any injects, you can have a ton of ling bling to back those mutas up. my 2 cents
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I am a high Diamond terran and can tell you a couple things that kill my early pushes.
Getting a quick lair gives you some options to deal with the early 9-10 minute push. I'm not a zerg so I don't know how this would work but I think getting an early baneling speed would really kill my early pushes. Expecially if you catch me before I can seige up. (My seige pushes come from making about 4-6 hellions for map control and then swapping until i have 2 barracks with reactors and 2 factories with tech labs allowing me to get around 4-6 tanks before the 10 minute first push.) This means I dont yet have any upgrades for marines/ stim and combat shield. And most early terran pushes that come with tanks probably don't have any upgrades either. Also early Mutas xan be effective at stopping early marine tank pushes.
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On January 22 2012 17:50 emc wrote:
Thats a defensive style. If they open gas you can always open with an aggressive style of your own. If you 14g 14p then baneling bust him. If you open 14h or 15h then go roaches and assault him.
Thank you for the reply. I need you to clarify one thing though, by "open gas" did you mean the 13 gas while the rax is building?
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On January 22 2012 17:50 emc wrote:
the simple answer is if you see a terran get gas at 13 (while the rax is building) then it's going to be hellions, otherwise it will always be 2 rax, either as a rush or as a way to safely get a quick command. From there just adapt according to what his early game plan is.
Against hellions if you like using lings then you will need more queens, so getting like 3-4 queens is pretty safe and easy to do and protects you from small amounts of hellions. 1 spine crawler never hurt either. As long as you can maintain your drone production to safely get you to lair, then you'll be fine. There are so many things you can do but as long you macro, a ling bane only style with baneling speed and burrow for traps will allow for pretty safe 2 base play against 2 base timing pushes from terran. Of course with this style you will need a macro hatch.
Thats a defensive style. If they open gas you can always open with an aggressive style of your own. If you 14g 14p then baneling bust him. If you open 14h or 15h then go roaches and assault him.
there is a really great 15h into roach build on TL I will try to find that transitions really nicely into a macro game.
so you want to defend a 9 min no upgrades marine siegetank push with burrow? you will never have that ready in time (Except if you rush tech and if you do you wont be able to get enough units)
you cant afford to 14gas 14pool vs terran because youre always going to lose sooo much vs hellions if they come
also baneling bust is horrible vs reactor hellion opening (which is most likely when you see 13 gas)
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I play a zvt style that is pretty safe against that type of tank push. I start with the standard hatch first opening, get 1-2 spines to fend off hellions (start the spines at 5:00-5:30 rather than 4:00 against hellion openings).
Rather than go for the fast lair, delay lair and gas mining for a bit to allow for your economy to grow properly. In terms of gas expenditure, I'll go metabolic boost, baneling nest, +1 carapace, lair, baneling speed then spire. Mine from only 1 gas for a while, until you start saturating your mineral lines. I noted that in your game you had 6 workers in gas at your natural with only 6 workers on minerals there too. The end result is an inability to afford drones and zerglings in addittion to the mutas you are aiming for.
Meanwhile, get a fast 3rd queen to help vs hellions and also to spread creep. When you are close to saturating your minerals, throw down a macro hatch so you can make more zerglings. With 3 hatches worth of production cranking out tons of upgraded lings, you should be able to overrun any straight up tank push given some time. Be sure to start making lings once you're saturated at each of your 2 bases (16 on minerals, 6 on gas) and waiting for your 3rd.
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I'd say The Art of ZvT is still very valid (from the strategy pinned thread here), explaining how to go 2 base ling/bling/muta properly. It was probably written before hellion openings became standard, but the general ideas still apply. Hatch first, gas between 17-23 supply, an extra queen immediately, 1-2 spine crawlers at nat. first 100 gas into speedlings, next 100 into lair, next 50 into banelings. Get fully saturated on minerals before getting gas, mass lings/banes if there's a push. When spire finishes, get 7-8 mutas and scout.
Following this general strategy, I would think that the only big issue would be a push coming when you want to start muta production but need lings/banes to hold.
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During his first push terran would siege up his tanks near the creep, so he prevents creep spread with helions so his first push would be successful. Always get some queens to spread creep asap. Often when I arrive with my marines + tanks and see that creep is spread well then its very scary to advance forward. Usually zerg can assemble tons of units to crush the push before I move close to his base. As for unit composition I think 50+ zerglings with +1/+1 should do the work really well. At higher leagues small ammounts of banelings seems not to work, you need to either get tons of them or dont get at all, focus fire will kill them easily.
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Ive started opening roach if I see hellions.
You get roach warren at 22-26 food depending on map, smaller earlier etc etc.
You make 2-5 roaches, depending on what you want to do.
These roaches push back hellions nicley and gets you back map control so you can expand a bit earlier.
I usually use these roaches to push up to thier ramp and scout. Also im often delaying expos here by a full minute or two. then just tech into my normal lair and lin/bling/muta style.
Careful not to over commit to roaches and do not lose them for no reason as they hold map control nicely from hellions or small marine pushes 
These delay the marine/tank push by alot also, giving you more time to get speedbanes and decent muta count.
As for the engagement, make sure you micro your banelings and try to get a multi-prong angle attack, it helps so much.
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make sure you move the banelings and dont attack-move them
also, you can try infestor-upgraded ling
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On January 23 2012 09:44 ButterMeUp wrote:Ive started opening roach if I see hellions. You get roach warren at 22-26 food depending on map, smaller earlier etc etc. You make 2-5 roaches, depending on what you want to do. These roaches push back hellions nicley and gets you back map control so you can expand a bit earlier. I usually use these roaches to push up to thier ramp and scout. Also im often delaying expos here by a full minute or two. then just tech into my normal lair and lin/bling/muta style. Careful not to over commit to roaches and do not lose them for no reason as they hold map control nicely from hellions or small marine pushes These delay the marine/tank push by alot also, giving you more time to get speedbanes and decent muta count. As for the engagement, make sure you micro your banelings and try to get a multi-prong angle attack, it helps so much.
What's your transition?
That many roaches cost 125 gas, so what do you sacrifice in order to get them?
I only ask because I've tried this but can't get it to work. If they push at like 9 - 10 mins, i find i'm behind because i used the gas and mins on roach tech, so i'm missing 5 banes, an upgrade, or bane speed.
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just a silver zerg here. but here is a couple things i noticed.
a fair few resources which is fine, but i also see queens with energy and hatcherys/lairs not being injected. that could of made a slight difference.
baneling speed wouldve of gone in your favour because most the battles were on creep.
i noticed you got 1 upgrade.
maybe some infestors wouldve been cool. with that many seiged tanks, an infested terran would clean up a big pair of rines.
your screen was looking elsewhere when you shouldve been looking at the mutas and trying to harass but you lost them to rines.
hope this helps
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EPT
