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PvP is quite build driven, so I'll begin by outlining the builds. Next, I will touch on scouting before moving on to decision making and execution. This will contain spoilers so if you haven't watched the games, feel free to do so:
Code S group H
The first game is free to view without a pass, as far as I know.
Game 1 on entombed
Builds
+ Show Spoiler +Puzzle's build: 9 Pylon 12 Gateway (scout) 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core 18 Gate(2) 19 Gas (2) 19 Stalker; WG 23 Pylon 23 Stalker 26 Stargate 27 Zealot 29 Sentry 31 Gate (3) Probes are cut (1z2s1s, 6 probes on gas, 16 on minerals) Phoenix production begins
Parting's build: 9 Pylon 12 Gateway 14 Gas 14 Pylon (scout) 17 Core 20 Stalker (CB'd); WG 23 Stalker (CB'd) 28 Nexus - temporary probe cut 28 Stalker 30 Gate (2) 30 Gate (3) 30 Robo 30 Stalker - resume probe production 34 Pylon @100 Robo, Immortal Probes are cut at 29
Puzzle's build is an extremely safe yet slightly inefficient 2 gate into stargate phoenix build. It will hold a 4gate, but it sacrifices secondary scouting by delaying the initial gateway units. Against 1 gas builds (or if the second gas is taken after his probe scout is shut down by a stalker), he will not be able to leave his ramp safely until his phoenixes can help him discern his opponent's actual build.
Scouting
+ Show Spoiler +On maps with a tower in the middle, scouting cross spawns first is beneficial to check for proxy gates, but this map is quite large so proxy gates in the middle of the map will not be very dangerous.
Parting scouts cross first and finds Puzzle immediately. He confirms 2 CB on nexus and standard core timing so he can rule out 10 gate/11 gate pressure. He also sees a quick second gate and a quick second gas. This was most likely the trigger for 1 gate expand, as this opening is very slow to get units out early. He thus skips his sentry for the time being, as it won't be very useful since he will soon take his expansion.
Parting gets his stalker to the tower 1st and is able to clear it. Puzzle attempts a secondary scout outside the reach of the tower, but Parting is luckily able to deny it from the middle of the map with a stalker. Had Puzzled scouted the other way or had Parting sent his stalker through the other path, Puzzle might have seen the expansion sooner.
Puzzle scouts Parting second. He can also confirm 2 CB on nexus and standard core timing. He doesn't see a second gas, which means he cannot rule out a 4gate. He therefore gets a sentry. Once his probe at the tower is denied, he refrains from leaving his ramp with his GW units, most likely because he is afraid of getting pinned had Parting 4gated or even 3 gated. His 2nd gateway and 2nd gas timing prevent him from getting his first stalkers out quickly, so he is unable to establish any map presence and thus get any follow-up scouting done with stalker pokes
Puzzle doesn't see Parting's expansion until he spots it with a phoenix. Never a good feeling. Parting cannot discern if Puzzle expanded in reaction, because he skips his observer for safety.
Decision Making
+ Show Spoiler +Puzzle's fast 2 gate build disabled him from poking with his initial stalkers which would have shown him the Nexus unless Parting had more stalkers out on the map. The extremely safe and passive build that Parting was able to scout triggered the 1 gate Nexus, a very bold move. I'm not sure if it's generally a good move, but + Show Spoiler +. The 1 gate Nexus decision was also strengthened by the ramp at the natural. Against pure blink builds, Parting will have the defender's advantage of vision; Puzzle has to get in range of zealots in order to engage. Against blink/obs builds, he will simply have enough units in time to defend. Against robo builds that forgo colossus, he will be able to block zealots from attacking up the ramp with forcefields. Against robo builds that get colossus, he should be able to get enough GW units and immortals in time to stop it. An observer would have been made to discern which was coming if he did not see the push coming at ~7:20, or had already seen Puzzle's phoenixes. + Show Spoiler +Upon scouting the expansion with his phoenix, Puzzle makes a second sentry. This is just bad decision making. That 100 gas and 2 supply could have gone anywhere else and would have been better spent. Puzzle had to make a decision: he could either expand himself while using his phoenixes to pick off probes to negate some of the income advantage Parting enjoyed from his faster expansion, or go all in and try to kill Parting before his expansion was able to give him a sizable unit advantage. Because Parting cannot tell whether or not Puzzle had expanded, he has to keep his probe count relatively low to be safe against 1 base pushes. By the time the push begins, Parting is only up but 5 or 6 probes, though he has a much higher income because he can spread them over 2 bases. Puzzle knew that Parting would not have blink any time soon thanks to his phoenix scouting, so he could have picked off several probes uncontested whilst Parting is hesitant to replace them, as Puzzle happily chronoboosts his own probes, more adequately saturates his bases meanwhile teching to colossus or twilight without fear of any pressure coming his way. However, Puzzle believed that his best option at that point was to all-in. He picks off a few of Parting's probes, which would have been a great move if he was expanding himself. But since he is going all-in, this move only takes away gravitons he could have used in the engagement in exchange for a few probes that really do not matter, as Puzzle is trying to end the game as quick as possible.
Execution
+ Show Spoiler +During the engage at Parting's natural, Puzzle's phoenixes are all but depleted of energy. He only has one graviton beam to use because he wasted them all on probes. He therefore must pick up the sentry that has energy to place the 3rd force field and block off the rest of his units. Puzzle spent a total of FIVE gravitons on probes. Had he saved this energy, he would have been able to lift a sentry and both immortals at the beginning of the engagement, and then he would have been able to keep the immortals lifted throughout the entire engagement. There were some noticeable errors in stalker focus fire and graviton usage after the fact that might have tipped the scales in one way or another, as well.
Conclusion + Implications
+ Show Spoiler +Puzzle's build is about as safe as a 2gate stargate opener can be. However, it lacks a secondary scout which allows his opponent to play greedy. Parting saw the 2nd gate and 2nd gas start, so there is no reason why he should not try to be as greedy as possible. From here, Parting played it very well. He cut probes at such a number where he had not invested a significantly large sum of minerals to his economy while still reaping the benefits of having expanded in time for Puzzle's push. The magic number here was 29. We are unable to discern when Parting would have gotten his observer out, but always consider that when you are expanding first in PvP and have no way to scout whether or not your opponent has expanded in reply, he can safely make more probes than you have and may surpass you in economy if you do not scout it in time because you have to cut probes to prepare for a 1 base timing that may or may not be coming. I don't recommend this 1 gate nexus response by Parting on maps that do not have a ramp at the natural.
Game 2 on daybreak
Builds
+ Show Spoiler +Puzzle's build 9 Pylon 12 Gate (scout) 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core 18 Zealot, though it is canceled 19 Gas (2) 20 Stalker; WG 23 Pylon 24 Stalker 27 Twilight 27 Gate (2) 28 Sentry - probe cut 30 Gate (3) 30 Blink 33 Hallucination Parting's build 9 Pylon 12 Gate (scout in base proxies, return to mining) 14 Gas 15 Pylon 16 Core (scout) 18 Gate (2) 18 Gas (2) 19 Stalker; WG 23 Pylon 24 Stalker 26 Stalker 29 Pylon 30 2 Stalkers (up to 5) 35 200 mins Robo (300 gas.....) 36 Nexus Notes on builds Puzzle's build is what I would call a safe 1gate tech build. the 2 stalkers will help zone the approach if a 4gate were coming, and the sentry is out in time to block the ramp way before the 1st warp-in would be ready. He cut the zealot after seeing no zealot from his opponent. I assume this means that he feels confident in holding a 4gate without that zealot after a faked 2nd gas into a 4gate with no zealot on 18. + Show Spoiler +I don't like Parting's build. First, He gets his core on 16 before scout, which is unnecessary and only gives his opponent almost a full probe advantage. He's not going to do anything with the 16 core, so it's simply inefficient. He then does the build Puzzle did in game 1, but it is even less economical, getting his 2nd gate and 2nd gas on 18 food and cutting probes to do so. Getting a 2nd gas this early and mining from it for a 2 gate robo expand is just bad play; there is no way he can spend these resources efficiently based on his production capabilities throughout the entire game. For this build, you can get your 2nd gas after 1 stalker or 2 stalkers and still maintain the same stalker production and robo timing. In fact, you'd get them faster because you're not wasting probes on unnecessary gas.
Scouting
+ Show Spoiler +Puzzle gets to Parting's base in time to see Parting start his core. The timing nothing out of the ordinary. He also sees Parting start his second gate and take his second gas, skipping the zealot. Puzzle cancels his zealot and starts his second gas. He also scouts 2 back to back chronoboosts on WG tech, but doesn't necessarily react, as this is not anything out of the ordinary; he has also seen that Parting did in fact begin mining from his 2nd gas before leaving the base. Looks like the seeds of a safe build that won't be able to pressure outside of what Puzzle is able to hold with his first sentry.
Parting gets to Puzzle's base when Puzzle is beginning his first stalker and WG tech. He can thus account for Puzzle's chronoboosts so far, and can see that 2 were used on probes. He gets there in time to see that the second gas is nearly complete and stays long enough to see it finish.
Puzzle sees the probe leaving from the top left expansion, but knows it's not safe to clear it immediately and that it's too far from his ramp to represent any immediate aggression. Upon Parting's poke, he confirms at least 2 stalkers and a sentry. The quick 2nd gas and the possibility of a pylon in the upper left would make me think DT's as Puzzle, but doesn't seem to think this warrants detection. This could have been the presence of at least 5 stalkers, though as we noted, Parting had plenty of gas to spare. Keep that in your back pocket, I guess.
Decision Making
+ Show Spoiler +An unforgivable mistake by Parting- You absolutely cannot expand on daybreak off of 2 gates and a robo given the information Parting had. Parting Only saw 2 stalkers and a sentry with stalker initial poke, which pins Puzzle on absolutely NOTHING. You might be able to get away with 2 gate robo expand against a blink all in on shakuras because of the natural's geography (though the addition of hallucination might mess that up, though that is 2 stalkers worth of gas to give up), but absolutely NOT on daybreak. The 2nd ramp is too far from your main, meaning your reinforcing immortals have a long way to waddle, and your opponent opt to take the other route to your natural. If the blink stalkers can engage you without the inconvenience of ffs on a 2ff choke, 2 gate robo expand will lose 100% of the time given the most barely correct blink micro. Artosis called this a build order loss, but it was simply terrible decision making based on all available information
It seemed as though Puzzle had his mind set on the blink all-in from the start. He canceled his zealot upon seeing that Parting had forgone his zealot, opting for quick second gate instead. He didn't scout the expansion until his stalkers arrived at the natural, so this did not shape his decisions (though he might have Parting pegged as one to take greedy expansions; this, however, would manifest itself from the second the game started rather than the timing of his move-out).
Execution
+ Show Spoiler +Not a whole lot to say on execution. Parting blindly expanded when he absolutely could not, and where he absolutely could not, and Puzzle's micro didn't have to be perfect to punish this terrible decision.
Conclusions and Implications
+ Show Spoiler +I haven't the slightest idea how the quick 2nd gate and 2nd gas on 18 or 19 supply opener is so prevalent. It doesn't seem to be able to do anything a 1gate build couldn't, and you cut probes in order to follow it. Puzzle's opener was much more efficient. He got his 2nd gas and Twilight at good times, allowing him to delay additional gates until he actually had sustained use for them, while still being safe from any foreseeable threats.
2gate robo expand is terrible on maps where you cannot abuse a secondary ramp. If you do this, you will die to any number of 1 base pushes. Especially blink all-ins.
Korean PvP befuddles me O_O
Game 3 will be out in a jiff. Pretty cut and dry, though.
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Northern Ireland23920 Posts
Got to bump this as there are few good analyses made of high-level play.
Haven't gotten to watch today's GSL games yet, but after that I'm coming straight back here
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Puzzle played the game awful. Phoenix build counters a FE build if properly executed. There were so many mistakes in his play.
First of all, the build was poor. The 2nd gate so early absolutely has no use at that time, better to put it a bit later and get that second gas quicker. Gas is pivotal for a stargate build. Also 3 gate stargate is redundant.. Should only be going 2 gates, phoenix have a insanely quick build time (i think fastest resource consumption of any unit 150/100 per 35 secs and you can chrono it!). Then when you do go phoenix always keep making them till at least 5 or 6. 5-6 phoenix are MUCH better then 2-3 phoenix because you will have way more lifts and lifts will actually kill something in one go. With enough losing a phoenix doesn't get critical either which it will be with 3-4. Phoenix are insanely fast anyway so they are great for rushing as you can simply rally them to the rest of your phoenix... First phoenix should scout expo, puzzle did that well. When you have 2 phoenix you should try to get a kill ASAP, either probes or a stray unit with the help of your army. You'll reveal your choice of tech but you can fly over their base to check their tech at the same time as you need to know quickly about some stuff.
Puzzle should have won the game easily, a phoenix all-in beats 1 gate FE easily if the FE player went for a robo and sentry. Extremely poor decision of puzzle not to make more phoenix and to kill too many probes with just a bad attack afterwards lost him the game. Only way 1 gate FE can hold really is when they went very light on sentry/robo stuff which is unlikely most of the time. It's one of the reasons FE PvP sucks, it's just too hard to answer with the correct tech.
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On January 20 2012 07:28 Markwerf wrote: Puzzle played the game awful. Phoenix build counters a FE build if properly executed. There were so many mistakes in his play.
First of all, the build was poor. The 2nd gate so early absolutely has no use at that time, better to put it a bit later and get that second gas quicker. Gas is pivotal for a stargate build. Also 3 gate stargate is redundant.. Should only be going 2 gates, phoenix have a insanely quick build time (i think fastest resource consumption of any unit 150/100 per 35 secs and you can chrono it!). Then when you do go phoenix always keep making them till at least 5 or 6. 5-6 phoenix are MUCH better then 2-3 phoenix because you will have way more lifts and lifts will actually kill something in one go. With enough losing a phoenix doesn't get critical either which it will be with 3-4. Phoenix are insanely fast anyway so they are great for rushing as you can simply rally them to the rest of your phoenix... First phoenix should scout expo, puzzle did that well. When you have 2 phoenix you should try to get a kill ASAP, either probes or a stray unit with the help of your army. You'll reveal your choice of tech but you can fly over their base to check their tech at the same time as you need to know quickly about some stuff.
Puzzle should have won the game easily, a phoenix all-in beats 1 gate FE easily if the FE player went for a robo and sentry. Extremely poor decision of puzzle not to make more phoenix and to kill too many probes with just a bad attack afterwards lost him the game. Only way 1 gate FE can hold really is when they went very light on sentry/robo stuff which is unlikely most of the time. It's one of the reasons FE PvP sucks, it's just too hard to answer with the correct tech.
I agree that the build is bad. Fast 2nd gate has never been my style, but doing so in a way that prevents you from using either of them efficiently is just sloppy play, too passive and inefficient. A lot of high lvl kr players have been doing weird builds like this, and it really bothers me. I don't know how most of them seem to use inefficient builds in PvP but still remain at the top. Also I agree that the cut in phoenix production was uncalled for. Even though he was CB'ing only gates to get as many zealots as possible and didn't have the minerals to continue phoenix production (he didn't even pull guys off of gas and/or add a 4th gate get more), he ends up with a bunch of gas he can't spend on anything but phoenixes and it really would have helped to get even 1 more to help in the final push.
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Always enjoy the guides/analysis Alej, keep it up!
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On January 20 2012 07:35 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 07:28 Markwerf wrote: Puzzle played the game awful. Phoenix build counters a FE build if properly executed. There were so many mistakes in his play.
First of all, the build was poor. The 2nd gate so early absolutely has no use at that time, better to put it a bit later and get that second gas quicker. Gas is pivotal for a stargate build. Also 3 gate stargate is redundant.. Should only be going 2 gates, phoenix have a insanely quick build time (i think fastest resource consumption of any unit 150/100 per 35 secs and you can chrono it!). Then when you do go phoenix always keep making them till at least 5 or 6. 5-6 phoenix are MUCH better then 2-3 phoenix because you will have way more lifts and lifts will actually kill something in one go. With enough losing a phoenix doesn't get critical either which it will be with 3-4. Phoenix are insanely fast anyway so they are great for rushing as you can simply rally them to the rest of your phoenix... First phoenix should scout expo, puzzle did that well. When you have 2 phoenix you should try to get a kill ASAP, either probes or a stray unit with the help of your army. You'll reveal your choice of tech but you can fly over their base to check their tech at the same time as you need to know quickly about some stuff.
Puzzle should have won the game easily, a phoenix all-in beats 1 gate FE easily if the FE player went for a robo and sentry. Extremely poor decision of puzzle not to make more phoenix and to kill too many probes with just a bad attack afterwards lost him the game. Only way 1 gate FE can hold really is when they went very light on sentry/robo stuff which is unlikely most of the time. It's one of the reasons FE PvP sucks, it's just too hard to answer with the correct tech. I agree that the build is bad. Fast 2nd gate has never been my style, but doing so in a way that prevents you from using either of them efficiently is just sloppy play, too passive and inefficient. A lot of high lvl kr players have been doing weird builds like this, and it really bothers me. I don't know how most of them seem to use inefficient builds in PvP but still remain at the top. Also I agree that the cut in phoenix production was uncalled for. Even though he was CB'ing only gates to get as many zealots as possible and didn't have the minerals to continue phoenix production (he didn't even pull guys off of gas and/or add a 4th gate get more), he ends up with a bunch of gas he can't spend on anything but phoenixes and it really would have helped to get even 1 more to help in the final push.
When you went stargate you should never go beyond 2 gates when you are doing a phoenix all-in, just non-stop chrono phoenix (almost exactly the gas consumption of 2 geysers) and non-stop zealots. If you do it well that is more production then your 22 probes can spend and you'll have MORE units because you didn't waste 150 or 300 on extra gates. Once you get to 5-6 phoenix you have virtually infinite lifts when it comes to fighting which is incredibly important.
Funny thing was that first game after I posted was pvp on entombed valley: http://drop.sc/95124 strategy wise almost an exact mirror of the puzzle v parting game. I do 2 gate phoenix all-in vs FE with robo and he just can't hold and i'm quite sure it's impossible to hold for FE with robo.
As for why top level protoss often do awful strategies? There are probably several reasons: - 4 gate dominated the matchup long so there was no need to develop strategy as there hardly was any. - many players hate the matchup and ignore it or just cheese through it whatever and that can actually be quite effective - PvP is rarely played in korean events, not much practicing for or copying from - There are practically no teams with multiple decent protosses in it - Blink stalker + obs is arguably the best strat on many maps which makes it kind of unneccesary to explore the strategies more
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On larger maps, 1 gate expand works out better than what people think and it's not that ballsy either.
Honestly, you make a good analysis of BO confirmation, scout denying, ruling out possible outcomes but in the end, it's just another 1gate expand not getting punished which leads to win.
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On January 20 2012 08:11 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 07:35 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 20 2012 07:28 Markwerf wrote: Puzzle played the game awful. Phoenix build counters a FE build if properly executed. There were so many mistakes in his play.
First of all, the build was poor. The 2nd gate so early absolutely has no use at that time, better to put it a bit later and get that second gas quicker. Gas is pivotal for a stargate build. Also 3 gate stargate is redundant.. Should only be going 2 gates, phoenix have a insanely quick build time (i think fastest resource consumption of any unit 150/100 per 35 secs and you can chrono it!). Then when you do go phoenix always keep making them till at least 5 or 6. 5-6 phoenix are MUCH better then 2-3 phoenix because you will have way more lifts and lifts will actually kill something in one go. With enough losing a phoenix doesn't get critical either which it will be with 3-4. Phoenix are insanely fast anyway so they are great for rushing as you can simply rally them to the rest of your phoenix... First phoenix should scout expo, puzzle did that well. When you have 2 phoenix you should try to get a kill ASAP, either probes or a stray unit with the help of your army. You'll reveal your choice of tech but you can fly over their base to check their tech at the same time as you need to know quickly about some stuff.
Puzzle should have won the game easily, a phoenix all-in beats 1 gate FE easily if the FE player went for a robo and sentry. Extremely poor decision of puzzle not to make more phoenix and to kill too many probes with just a bad attack afterwards lost him the game. Only way 1 gate FE can hold really is when they went very light on sentry/robo stuff which is unlikely most of the time. It's one of the reasons FE PvP sucks, it's just too hard to answer with the correct tech. I agree that the build is bad. Fast 2nd gate has never been my style, but doing so in a way that prevents you from using either of them efficiently is just sloppy play, too passive and inefficient. A lot of high lvl kr players have been doing weird builds like this, and it really bothers me. I don't know how most of them seem to use inefficient builds in PvP but still remain at the top. Also I agree that the cut in phoenix production was uncalled for. Even though he was CB'ing only gates to get as many zealots as possible and didn't have the minerals to continue phoenix production (he didn't even pull guys off of gas and/or add a 4th gate get more), he ends up with a bunch of gas he can't spend on anything but phoenixes and it really would have helped to get even 1 more to help in the final push. When you went stargate you should never go beyond 2 gates when you are doing a phoenix all-in, just non-stop chrono phoenix (almost exactly the gas consumption of 2 geysers) and non-stop zealots. If you do it well that is more production then your 22 probes can spend and you'll have MORE units because you didn't waste 150 or 300 on extra gates. Once you get to 5-6 phoenix you have virtually infinite lifts when it comes to fighting which is incredibly important. Funny thing was that first game after I posted was pvp on entombed valley: http://drop.sc/95124strategy wise almost an exact mirror of the puzzle v parting game. I do 2 gate phoenix all-in vs FE with robo and he just can't hold and i'm quite sure it's impossible to hold for FE with robo. As for why top level protoss often do awful strategies? There are probably several reasons: - 4 gate dominated the matchup long so there was no need to develop strategy as there hardly was any. - many players hate the matchup and ignore it or just cheese through it whatever and that can actually be quite effective - PvP is rarely played in korean events, not much practicing for or copying from - There are practically no teams with multiple decent protosses in it - Blink stalker + obs is arguably the best strat on many maps which makes it kind of unneccesary to explore the strategies more
I've had success with getting 3 cannons at the natural against phoenix builds when I've expanded after 2 gates and a robo. There's a replay in the other thread that I'll put here in a second.
I think it's really sad if the 4gate of old age is still affecting pvp in Korea. I'd think they would be able to get over it by now. I see sooo many games where both players get their gas on 18, as though they feel it's an absolute necessity to get it so early. I think 20 food is the earliest it needs to be out for any 1gate tech build, outside of dts where you obviously want that gas asap. the 18 gas might be there to keep the threat of dt's in mind, perhaps.
I also think that the protoss players on good kr teams, though they might not be at the top of the world, should be good enough to formulate more efficient builds. I think blink + obs doesn't deal well with safely expanding robo players, even on good blink maps. I think the style will fall off a little bit as players regress into the robo stylings of old
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Watching those games I was so disapointed, I can't help but feel that PvP is just not nearly as high level of play and understanding as other matchups. Watching them, I would have beat either of them, seriously the level of PvP they showed was what you'd expect in gm level ladder play.
There as so many builds that can be aggressive while still being economical, yet still safe from any sort of standard 4 gate type of builds. It seems like people are either going to 4 gate, or not attack for 10 minutes, and that's it...
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On January 20 2012 08:48 Lobber wrote: Watching those games I was so disapointed, I can't help but feel that PvP is just not nearly as high level of play and understanding as other matchups. Watching them, I would have beat either of them, seriously the level of PvP they showed was what you'd expect in gm level ladder play.
There as so many builds that can be aggressive while still being economical, yet still safe from any sort of standard 4 gate type of builds. It seems like people are either going to 4 gate, or not attack for 10 minutes, and that's it...
I agree. I was really disappointed watching the PvPs at HSC, as well. The openers don't seem to mesh well at all with the builds that follow them, and the prevalence of 18 gases and 18 or 19 gates really confuses me. Players seem to neglect safety despite scouting an opener that could foreseeable kill them outright and instead opt for greedy builds that shouldn't work if the other player executes correctly. These games really make the mu look more coin flippy than it needs to. When will it end??
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On January 20 2012 08:47 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 08:11 Markwerf wrote:On January 20 2012 07:35 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 20 2012 07:28 Markwerf wrote: Puzzle played the game awful. Phoenix build counters a FE build if properly executed. There were so many mistakes in his play.
First of all, the build was poor. The 2nd gate so early absolutely has no use at that time, better to put it a bit later and get that second gas quicker. Gas is pivotal for a stargate build. Also 3 gate stargate is redundant.. Should only be going 2 gates, phoenix have a insanely quick build time (i think fastest resource consumption of any unit 150/100 per 35 secs and you can chrono it!). Then when you do go phoenix always keep making them till at least 5 or 6. 5-6 phoenix are MUCH better then 2-3 phoenix because you will have way more lifts and lifts will actually kill something in one go. With enough losing a phoenix doesn't get critical either which it will be with 3-4. Phoenix are insanely fast anyway so they are great for rushing as you can simply rally them to the rest of your phoenix... First phoenix should scout expo, puzzle did that well. When you have 2 phoenix you should try to get a kill ASAP, either probes or a stray unit with the help of your army. You'll reveal your choice of tech but you can fly over their base to check their tech at the same time as you need to know quickly about some stuff.
Puzzle should have won the game easily, a phoenix all-in beats 1 gate FE easily if the FE player went for a robo and sentry. Extremely poor decision of puzzle not to make more phoenix and to kill too many probes with just a bad attack afterwards lost him the game. Only way 1 gate FE can hold really is when they went very light on sentry/robo stuff which is unlikely most of the time. It's one of the reasons FE PvP sucks, it's just too hard to answer with the correct tech. I agree that the build is bad. Fast 2nd gate has never been my style, but doing so in a way that prevents you from using either of them efficiently is just sloppy play, too passive and inefficient. A lot of high lvl kr players have been doing weird builds like this, and it really bothers me. I don't know how most of them seem to use inefficient builds in PvP but still remain at the top. Also I agree that the cut in phoenix production was uncalled for. Even though he was CB'ing only gates to get as many zealots as possible and didn't have the minerals to continue phoenix production (he didn't even pull guys off of gas and/or add a 4th gate get more), he ends up with a bunch of gas he can't spend on anything but phoenixes and it really would have helped to get even 1 more to help in the final push. When you went stargate you should never go beyond 2 gates when you are doing a phoenix all-in, just non-stop chrono phoenix (almost exactly the gas consumption of 2 geysers) and non-stop zealots. If you do it well that is more production then your 22 probes can spend and you'll have MORE units because you didn't waste 150 or 300 on extra gates. Once you get to 5-6 phoenix you have virtually infinite lifts when it comes to fighting which is incredibly important. Funny thing was that first game after I posted was pvp on entombed valley: http://drop.sc/95124strategy wise almost an exact mirror of the puzzle v parting game. I do 2 gate phoenix all-in vs FE with robo and he just can't hold and i'm quite sure it's impossible to hold for FE with robo. As for why top level protoss often do awful strategies? There are probably several reasons: - 4 gate dominated the matchup long so there was no need to develop strategy as there hardly was any. - many players hate the matchup and ignore it or just cheese through it whatever and that can actually be quite effective - PvP is rarely played in korean events, not much practicing for or copying from - There are practically no teams with multiple decent protosses in it - Blink stalker + obs is arguably the best strat on many maps which makes it kind of unneccesary to explore the strategies more I've had success with getting 3 cannons at the natural against phoenix builds when I've expanded after 2 gates and a robo. There's a replay in the other thread that I'll put here in a second. I think it's really sad if the 4gate of old age is still affecting pvp in Korea. I'd think they would be able to get over it by now. I see sooo many games where both players get their gas on 18, as though they feel it's an absolute necessity to get it so early. I think 20 food is the earliest it needs to be out for any 1gate tech build, outside of dts where you obviously want that gas asap. the 18 gas might be there to keep the threat of dt's in mind, perhaps. I also think that the protoss players on good kr teams, though they might not be at the top of the world, should be good enough to formulate more efficient builds. I think blink + obs doesn't deal well with safely expanding robo players, even on good blink maps. I think the style will fall off a little bit as players regress into the robo stylings of old
Against a proper phoenix all-in there is no time to get cannons really. The phoenix player should be scouting the expo with his first phoenix, then try to get free snipes on units (not probes) till he has around 5 phoenix and then move in. There is really no window to get cannons up, attack hits around 8min if done well, just check the replay i've put.
As for blink + obs, I think it is near unbeatable with any other strat in the hands of a proper player on a good map for it like shakuras. If you FE against it the blink into main is very hard to stop especially if they threaten the trick off ffing the ramp and blinking out. Normal robo play also has tremendous trouble with robo blink because it's so slow, the robo blink player can basically always expand first and then catchup just fine in the colossus war later. I can't name a build that counters robo blink on the map with good cliffs for it.
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On January 20 2012 08:55 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 08:48 Lobber wrote: Watching those games I was so disapointed, I can't help but feel that PvP is just not nearly as high level of play and understanding as other matchups. Watching them, I would have beat either of them, seriously the level of PvP they showed was what you'd expect in gm level ladder play.
There as so many builds that can be aggressive while still being economical, yet still safe from any sort of standard 4 gate type of builds. It seems like people are either going to 4 gate, or not attack for 10 minutes, and that's it... I agree. I was really disappointed watching the PvPs at HSC, as well. The openers don't seem to mesh well at all with the builds that follow them, and the prevalence of 18 gases and 18 or 19 gates really confuses me. Players seem to neglect safety despite scouting an opener that could foreseeable kill them outright and instead opt for greedy builds that shouldn't work if the other player executes correctly. These games really make the mu look more coin flippy than it needs to. When will it end?? Idk, I've yet to see a progamer who's pvp opening I think is as good as my standard opeing. (outside of some all in) I don't think there's been nearly enough testing of builds and timings pvp...
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PvP seriously needs some work in Korea. From watching lots of pro streams (HerO, MC, Tails), there seems to be a utter lack of the creativity and imagination seen in all other matchups (marauder hellion timings, sky terran, mass mutas in ZvZ). Whenever i watch coLrsvp stream against masters and GM, PvP seems to be so much different and a lot more cleanly played and executed on both sides. Phoenix builds that actually work, immortal-blink timings against collosi, extended macro games with more than one engagement...
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On January 20 2012 09:23 Whatson wrote: PvP seriously needs some work in Korea. From watching lots of pro streams (HerO, MC, Tails), there seems to be a utter lack of the creativity and imagination seen in all other matchups (marauder hellion timings, sky terran, mass mutas in ZvZ). Whenever i watch coLrsvp stream against masters and GM, PvP seems to be so much different and a lot more cleanly played and executed on both sides. Phoenix builds that actually work, immortal-blink timings against collosi, extended macro games with more than one engagement... I agree that foreigners tend to show cooler PvP styles. sase, nani and huk come to mind especially. but since you mentioned rsvp.. this game was pretty cool :D http://drop.sc/95172
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as a phoenix user since agust pre patch 1.4, i could strongly guarentee that Puzzle has no idea how to transition with phoenix in PvP. There were 2 thing you could do when you see fast expansion if you went phoenix: kill probes and set up a contain into expand OR 4 gates and kill him. The one Puzzle choosed was mid way.
Here is how you could havve done differently: +4 gate and kill him: use 3 phoenix to kill off all the sentries, no FF left so lift the immortals and a move... (puzzle only has 3 gate when he attack btw)
+kill probes, keep making more phoenix. If you make more than 5-6 phoenix, you are guarentee to have 50 energy/20 seconds which mean that you could simply deny mining from 1 nexus. mean while your econ is remain untouched and even though its 2 bases vs 1 base, the econ is 1 base vs 1 base while his army is down by a tons bc he need to keep replacing the probes he lost.
The map is really good for phoenix play but puzzle is clearly very inexperienced in using this style.
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Super well thought out analysis. Protoss players are spoiled with you, kcdc, cecil, and rsvp dropping knowledge all over the strat forums.
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On January 20 2012 10:43 NB wrote: as a phoenix user since agust pre patch 1.4, i could strongly guarentee that Puzzle has no idea how to transition with phoenix in PvP. There were 2 thing you could do when you see fast expansion if you went phoenix: kill probes and set up a contain into expand OR 4 gates and kill him. The one Puzzle choosed was mid way.
Here is how you could havve done differently: +4 gate and kill him: use 3 phoenix to kill off all the sentries, no FF left so lift the immortals and a move... (puzzle only has 3 gate when he attack btw)
+kill probes, keep making more phoenix. If you make more than 5-6 phoenix, you are guarentee to have 50 energy/20 seconds which mean that you could simply deny mining from 1 nexus. mean while your econ is remain untouched and even though its 2 bases vs 1 base, the econ is 1 base vs 1 base while his army is down by a tons bc he need to keep replacing the probes he lost.
The map is really good for phoenix play but puzzle is clearly very inexperienced in using this style.
I agree. He should have either gone up to 4 gates and cut sentries or use the 3 while getting a few more phoenixes out. Instead, he stayed on 3 gates and cut phoenixes, but didn't pull probes from gas so his all-in was weaker than it should have been. And then of course the misuse of phoenix energy based on what he was doing
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You make some interesting points.
I'm really interested in the PvP matchup. It seems like the least figured out matchup right now. We have no true PvP specialist like we have in the other matchups. I find it strange that the top tier Koreans show incorrect decisions in high level games. Is it because gathering information is harder in PvP than in other matchups?
Edit: After some thinking.. The main problem in PvP right now is that people do greedy expands that are not possible to defend, but the other player doesn't know that they are expanding, so they get away with it. Observers are precious units in PvP. Gas is limited, and even more limited is the robo build time. By building more than one observer you sacrifice immortal production which will lose you the game vs specific aggressive blink/obs timings. And it isn't always safe to send out the only observer, because of the possibility of DTs. You also risk sending the observer across the map only to get it sniped by a group of stalkers. Now you are in the dark with no information.
Perhaps the "solution" to this is phoenix play? By going a flexible phoenix opener (2 gate stargate) that can be followed up by either aggression (if you scout greedy expand) or defense (if you scout 1 base play). Then again, I feel that certain blink/obs timings can destroy phoenix play, but I don't have enough experience with the playstyle yet to know for sure.
:z
Bisu, switch to SC2 already and figure this stuff out! :d
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Greed seems to be the new standard in pvp. It's really frustrating to play a safe build only to see your opponent blindly did an fe >>
I don't generally like expanding fast in pvp because I feel like there's too much you have to worry about. If you counterexpand you can put pressure without losing too much econ, a much better deal imo.
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On January 20 2012 10:03 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 09:23 Whatson wrote: PvP seriously needs some work in Korea. From watching lots of pro streams (HerO, MC, Tails), there seems to be a utter lack of the creativity and imagination seen in all other matchups (marauder hellion timings, sky terran, mass mutas in ZvZ). Whenever i watch coLrsvp stream against masters and GM, PvP seems to be so much different and a lot more cleanly played and executed on both sides. Phoenix builds that actually work, immortal-blink timings against collosi, extended macro games with more than one engagement... I agree that foreigners tend to show cooler PvP styles. sase, nani and huk come to mind especially. but since you mentioned rsvp.. this game was pretty cool :D http://drop.sc/95172
Completely agree. It feels like to me this whole thread was somewhat unneccessary because the mistakes made seemed pretty obvious. PvP is the one match-up where foreigners can really compete in since the match-up rarely evolves past the mid-game and is much more about micro and good decision-making and less about perfect macro mechanics.
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