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Spawning counter-clockwise against your opponent will be very overpowered. The nat is extreamly harasable if you spawn like that and it allows an easier third away from opponent. That is not saying much thou since getting a third in any position is very hard since its so far away and open. Also you can throw ideas about getting fourths out of a window.
Also your map is way too open, but luckily it also has too few doodas so you can fix both easily by constructing stuff around the map. I would suggest to put them many of them especially infront of the third to make it more defendable.
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The only reason the map seems "way too open" is that the 3rd feels that way due to having nothing but flat ground on one side. Besides that the proportions are breezy but not extreme.
Compare your map to Antiga Shipyards. Your map has much more severe positional imbalance and a much more difficult 3rd. Do you gain anything back from those choices? I can't really see any reason to say yes. Also the mains could use a little more space imo.
I think this map would benefit a lot from adding a little bit more to the size and stretching the corners apart. This will allow you to tuck the 3rds back further and perhaps add some kind of terrain in front of them so they are more defensible. If you would prefer to have the open-flat style, I suggest adding another set of bases somehow so that you can expand away from your opponent in either direction easily. (I'm not sure how you would fit this in. I recommend rotating the natural ramp 90 deg to the right, so it "faces" the ramp to middle platform.)
Of course, it's really not a bad map as it stands. Although the 3rd seems so difficult in close spawns ccw, the distance to either right hand or left hand 3rd is pretty similar. It's just so open as to be very attackable (aka easy to deny). This map definitely reminds of some of the ladder pool. 
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The map has some positional imbalance... I like that.
You can either make a rotational symmetrie map in which players are far away from each other, which leads to the same layout we see time and time again (3-4bases very close to each other, very far away, resulting in a middle area with very few expansions and a lot of "moving space"...), or you play with the positional imbalance, which makes it interesting.
Still I think there has to be something done about the thirds to make them less vulnerable from the counterclockwise natural.
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On September 20 2011 23:18 Big J wrote:
The map has some positional imbalance... I like that.
You can either make a rotational symmetrie map in which players are far away from each other, which leads to the same layout we see time and time again (3-4bases very close to each other, very far away, resulting in a middle area with very few expansions and a lot of "moving space"...), or you play with the positional imbalance, which makes it interesting.
OR, you could make good maps that are like neither of those like antiga shipyard and tal darim altar.
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On September 20 2011 23:20 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:18 Big J wrote:
The map has some positional imbalance... I like that.
You can either make a rotational symmetrie map in which players are far away from each other, which leads to the same layout we see time and time again (3-4bases very close to each other, very far away, resulting in a middle area with very few expansions and a lot of "moving space"...), or you play with the positional imbalance, which makes it interesting.
OR, you could make good maps that are like neither of those like antiga shipyard and tal darim altar.
Antiga Shipyard has huge positional imbalances... If you spawn clockwise you can harass the third way more easily, if you spawn counterclockwise, you can harass the main pretty easily and basetrade easier (doomdrop scenarios, because you drop behind his defenses, while he is moving in the middle)... Also there is no way to completly balance 2gold bases on a 4player map with rotational symmetrie...
Tal'darim is the prototype of the kind of map I described. It's great. But it is already there, so I don't think we should aim to simply remake it, by making our maps just the same way, because then we will only get new solid maps, but nothing that is ever going to be played, because there is already a map that has proven to be extremly solid (and was innovative at the time it came out)
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Thanks for the input guys! I didn't really notice that there was any noticible positional balance ;o. I did think it was a bit to open in front of the third, but adding things seemed to cluster it up to much. I'll have a go at putting something there to make it more defendable.
As for the spawning issue... EatThePath you mentioned rotating the ramp, what do you think of adding a backdoor ramp? Kind of like Backwater Gulch (if you know what I mean by that?) Although I suppose a back door entrance into your nat might not be such a great idea lol
Oh and would preventing players from spawning CCW to you help at all? ;o Maybe enforce cross spawns?
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The biggest problem with a side-entrance to the nat is that it shortens the nat-to-nat greatly once the rocks are down. I think it's a better option to rearrange the pieces, but never rule something out unless you're sure.
Cross spawns would fix it, and take away the fun of a 4player rotational. 
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United States10141 Posts
Mains are too small, please increase in size.
Really hard to take 3rd, maybe make it high ground, 2 entrances with one being DR. not too bad of a map, just feels like it needs more bases.
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@ EatThePath:
Yeah a side entrance would probably not be the best idea. I'll try experiment a little bit.
@ FlaShFTW:
Based on some suggestions I'll see what it looks like if I stretch it out! Mains will be bigger and might make room for more bases.
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I agree that something needs to be done with the bases, it looks a little odd with all of the bases around the outside of the map
I also think the map would benefit from some more doodads, it looks a little bare at the moment
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@TwistedFate: Always with the doodads! :p
A rough look of a possible fix to some of the issues:
Close up: http://i.imgur.com/oashU.jpg
Overview: http://i.imgur.com/d03vt.jpg
I've not done anything to the middle yet, but this at least allows for possible bases in the middle as well. Would these changes be an improvement?
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It's an improvement but you still have a problem with how hard it is to expand to the righthand side. Maybe you can adjust the positioning of the main and natural a bit? I think the best option might be to pull the natural back towards the edge of the map more, and make a 2nd ramp down the righthand low ground base. This might cause problems with rush distance though, as previously mentioned. =\
Also, can you identify the defining characteristic of your map that it has or that you want it to have that sets it apart from other 4player rotational layouts? Having that in mind would help to build around it.
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I sort of wrote this map off due to alot of issues which I don't know how to fix. However, seeing as I never liked the texture set I used, I thought I would give it a rework and then I sort of went and changed everything anyway lol.
I updated the OP with the new look and layout and you can take a look at the old version which is in a spoiler at the end of the post. Although I have a feeling the positional imbalance thing is worse now ^_^
Thanks for the feedback so far and this is also now available on NA!
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soooo if the top is the natural whys it so much bigger than the main?!?!?!
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On October 14 2011 22:07 Xenocryst wrote:
soooo if the top is the natural whys it so much bigger than the main?!?!?!
The main is the big one =o
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the map is well spaced, but, some questions to ask yourself:
The middle bases are so extremely harrassable and have very little resources. As a player, why would I invest the money to expand there?
As a zerg, an early third is essential. How does this map accommodate me? Is the third far or close, easy or hard to defend?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tYaml.jpg)
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