EPTLord of the Rings Mafia
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Cyber_Cheese
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Cyber_Cheese
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I'm doc, is my heal wasted on him? | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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Activity: You must post in this thread five times per day/night cycle and vote every day while you are alive. If you fail to do so, you will be modkilled. To kick things off, Archon_Toilet seems rather untrustworthy, just look at that hideous underscore he chooses to have inside is name. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 17 2011 14:36 TranceStorm wrote: Debating about who should get the ring and what each role can or cannot do at the moment is pointless at the current time. However, I do like one of the plans that was proposed by a few people: having the person who successfully passed on the ring claim themselves. This way, we can enable a 'chain' to be made - i.e. the first player can confirm the second player once the second player has passed on the ring themselves. This is all dependent on the assumption that evil players cannot pass the ring themselves which as Radfield pointed out, is probably a true assumption. Given this, however, this plan would probably only be effective for the first few 'passes' and perhaps near the end of the game when town circles become more clear. The risk after the first few days that the person holding the ring is killed, or has the ring stolen (which is a possible role according to the OP) makes the plan ineffective. Therefore, I think that such a plan should work for the first 2 or 3 days to confirm at least one or two people. Any thoughts or ideas about this? I haven't fully fleshed this out yet (i.e. the possibility of fake claims is strong), but its probably a better discussion than the arbitrary finger-pointing going on at the moment. I'm not sure if you realise it or not but that plan sounds awfully anti-town. How do we guarantee that even those 1-3 people can pass the ring in the first place? And even if they can, how does that confirm anybody? In this game, only people with roles that relate to the ring should bother searching for it secretly, and if the ring is passed it will either be the fruits of their efforts or a complete accident. As for the effects of the ring, there is no real way to find out, the only people that know are the ring bearers and mentioning that you have it/explaining what it does is virtually ensuring you get killed overnight in the hopes that you can't pass it. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 17 2011 15:03 TranceStorm wrote: First, if the players in question cannot pass the ring, then the plan does not go into effect. A player only announces that they had the ring in the previous turn. If they can't pass it on, they stay silent and we are none the wiser. Second, given Radfield's argument that evil players probably don't have the mechanic to pass the ring (otherwise they would pass it amongst themselves), if we can get two successive passes, that would confirm at least one player. The danger of course is passing to a mafia player, but that probability initially is small. At any rate, I think it is pretty likely that the ring will worm into non-town hands (whether 3rd party or mafia) given that non-town players will constantly search and probe every turn. There's no way to comprehensively prevent them from getting the ring, therefore, why not get some benefit to it. Finally, another point that can be made is that the player who passes on the ring and reveals themselves can also reveal what the ring does. Given that every player already covets it, it would be nice to at least have that information. So basically you want people to say "I had the ring guys, I managed to pass it off, but I'm not saying to who" and maybe list it's effects? We can't be sure evil players can't pass the ring, and if the person who claimed to have got rid of it was telling the truth or not. There is way too much uncertainty, and I believe only a non-town party would be trying to push a bad plan to get the ring Unless you can come up with a really good reason you care so much about the ring bearer ##Vote TranceStorm | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 18 2011 07:29 Erandorr wrote: Sup! O Hai! You've got a fair bit to catch up on yet. Keep in mind while catching up that the minimum is 5 posts per day/night. On wherebugsgo, I get the distinct impression he's just a townie who wanted to have the ring and decided acting as Smeagol and demanding the ring until people got bored of it was better than trying to defend himself actively. I'm willing to bet there is no posting restriction, in fact I think it was explicitly stated somewhere that there wasn't. That said, I'd be comfortable with a lynch on him on the off-chance he is telling the truth about being third party, purely because that seems to make him a safer bet than most others. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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Not really... I'd be playing more along the lines of: They took my precious etc. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 19 2011 01:16 jcarlsoniv wrote: Yeah navi, it was something I was going to bring up later on. Seems as if he's just trying to not take a stance and avoid offending anyone. Those who's votes are not on the main lynch candidates need to get them on the (at least) 3 main targets. The more scattered the votes are, the more beneficial for the scum. It looks like WBG, prpl, and jackal are the front runners. It worries me how quickly the votes for jackal piled up, although he was inactive until recently. So cyber, JeeJee, GGQ, drh, cir...could you put your votes in a place where they will be useful? Now that I think about it, we haven't ears for drh or radfield in a while. A majority is not required, I can place the vote where-ever I feel it is best used That said, here's lowdown of my opinions on everybody currently voted. I think WBG is currently someone we want to keep around till at least day 2. His latest post seems to be far and away better than all his other posts combined + Show Spoiler [I mean this one] + On September 18 2011 16:21 wherebugsgo wrote: I still don't have the ring! What a surprise. The following post is well-reasoned and should be listened to: As I said earlier and as Kitaman has nailed pretty well, we absolutely need to encourage the lurkers to participate. If they don't participate, or we let them get away with stupid shit (more on this later) then we are just hurting ourselves. We cannot let mafia blend in, and we need to identify when someone is trying to blend in, to identify them as scum. I will give you all two examples of this right now: Firstly, this guy is saying absolutely nothing with this entire post. He says there are so many people yelling at each other, that it's hard to read what's going on. He insinuates that there is a lot of confusion and noise, yet he adds to this by splitting the vote even further and throwing a shitty vote on a person who so far has not done anything scummy (as far as I can tell.) The worst part is that there are no specifics in this post. To clarify: wat so, he says there are "many plans and ideas, some good some bad." Way to go sherlock, either the plan is good or it's bad. You've really told us a lot there. What the fuck is that supposed to contribute? What's specifically good about these "good plans"? Who made them? What about the bad plans? The only thing he alludes to is that he thinks people like me and Trance are probably fine and just giving bad ideas. Well, the only idea I've pushed is giving me the ring. Trance is receiving votes, if Archon is scum then it totally makes sense for him to soft defend him here. And "all the guys" talking like us are fine. Whoa, so if someone makes a plan they're autoconfirmed town? Wtf? God this makes no sense whatsoever. Yeah hey guess what genius, you were lurking until now too, AFTER you were called out on your shitty posting record. I'm pretty sure you're just throwing a random vote out there and feigning analysis so you don't get a shitstorm for not posting and not contributing anything. This isn't even a real vote! Our last example is this: Clear lack of reading comprehension/hasn't read the thread. Granted, from what I saw in XLIV his town play is absolutely horrible so I'm not inclined to think he's scum. However, the type of logic he's using is precisely pro-mafia logic. I wouldn't put it past him to be scum, but for now we just need to push more posts out of our friend here Pyo. Specifically, the bolded part is his reason for voting me. In other words, he doesn't think I'm scum. He's voting me because he wants to get information. That's a terrible reason to want to lynch someone. You lynch someone primarily because you think they're scum. You get information NO MATTER WHO YOU LYNCH. This is an example of exactly what I want to see from him, as compared to all the 'ring lol' trolling and if he can keep it up he's realistically a valuable asset for town. Speaking of valuable assets for town, the DrH lynch: The reasoning didn't sound too great. At this point either way DrH was a good contributor, and while I would keep an eye on him, there are people that seem to pop-out as a much better choice for day 1. I'd rather keep him around for the chance to get this information of out him in following day(s). Note that the only person that was behind this was prplhz Prplhz: His analyses on doc weren't too bad compared to many of the posts in the game so far, at this point those analyses alone are the reason I want him around. I see potential, and in this regard he's in the same boat as WBG. + Show Spoiler [My reference] + On September 18 2011 06:15 prplhz wrote: wow what a 100th post i'm so blown away i want to vote for me too now i don't like drh or heist or wiggles but there are tons of people here who are worthy of scrutiny stuff like this, it's the wiggle room we want 'cause that's when people really have to talk about stuff, even if we're lynching a scum i think 51/49 is better than 100/0 and drh should probably think so too unless he's a crazyman i'm fine with wbg and cyriandor and syllogism, good questions and wbg is not worth the attention he's getting right now, let him troll around and then maybe a vig can shoot him at some point or whatever On September 18 2011 09:47 prplhz wrote: okay i don't like drh i'm reluctant to push a mafia forum legend on first day but then someone said that if you have a vibe you should just go for it voting greymist because he asked for ring on day1 .. asking for ring is pretty silly but the vote doesn't accomplish anything as i really doubt anybody will feel pressured by a couple of votes this early in the voting cycle with that bad of a reasonable as you say, wbh is bad-townie not scum. you don't waste a lynch on a dude because he's a bad townie, you threaten with vigihits or hope he gets mafia killed or his mom takes his internet away. as pressure it makes little sense as he was already posting his ass off. is he scum acting as bad townie or is he SK? anyway, you are saying that we should all vote for this guy because he's 3rd party, instead of lynching someone who might be scum just because we can't be sure? this is a terrible idea, you lynch scum and 3rd party is left until a vigilante shoots them or until you have a scumtell on them. and you can never be sure that someone is scum, it will always be analysis and gut feelings and you're not encouraging that right now. on the whole multiple candidates v all votes on single target, i'm pretty sure it's always better if there are multiple candidates and i can't believe you're actually trying to argue that that's not the case. your argument is that 100% votes on a target who is 100% scum is best, but you will never be 100% sure that someone is scum, is that what you want to wait around for? i really don't think you're trying to promote a good environment for scum hunting by saying that someone is a clown and noise. again, you'd rather just lynch wbg than trying to scumhunt and you want a guy who is 100% scum. well do you think we're gonna get that by just all voting for wbg and then calling it a day? scum wants 3rd party dead too i think, gollum wasn't exactly on sauron's side. all in all i think drh is playing pretty weird compared to what i have seen from other people who are supposedly good at this game and i think he is promoting agendas that aren't good for town and if he's that smart he'd know that. the guy is scummier than the other dudes, 'cause none of them were really that scummy after all. ##Vote: DoctorHelvetica Jackal: I hear he is usually killed off within the first couple of days regardless of faction, I swear it's the name or something, I'd like to see his opinions in following day(s) time, not as much as DrH, but still more than others. JeeJee voting for himself, I'd love to spite him and see him lynched in part because of his own vote, but I can't foresee that happening. Archon_Toilet: I'll quote myself here from the first post of the day, originally it was supposed to be a rather obvious joke On September 17 2011 08:07 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I'd like to call attention to To kick things off, Archon_Toilet seems rather untrustworthy, just look at that hideous underscore he chooses to have inside is name. I'm somehow saddened that he doesn't look any more trustworthy now, but at the moment I think he's a townie who didn't read the thread and panicked when he got voted. IGrok seems a little bit suspicious, but since I'm giving archon_toilet a break I guess I'll be doing the same here. TranceStorm: His plan is only good if townies a) choose to pass the ring, b) choose to mention that they did, and c) nobody lies about it So many questions get raised here though, by all sorts of things like the 'how do we confirm it reliably?', 'does a townie even have the ring?', but it really seems to boil down to convincing town to risk throwing the one true ring into scum hands. It's all risk and little to no reward, spruced up to sound like the greatest thing since sliced bread, hence my vote stands on him. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 19 2011 03:48 Pyo wrote: Jackal said "Lynch him OR give him the ring." It's pretty clear what Jackal meant and it wasn't what you claimed it to be. This post: is an example of why doing what WBG is doing is bad. People aren't reading the post to generate their own impressions, they read "analysis posts" and take the "analysis" at face value. That is how scum manipulate town into believing what they want you to... It's how chaoser got away with that bullshit DT claim in XLIV, for example. No I actually think he remembers it correctly, the and seems to be used to bring up both the courses of actions Jackal wanted to take, rather than connect them. Why would Jackal want to give WBG the most powerful item in the game AND want to kill him off? Wanting to do both of the extremes exclusively still seems like very bad play. However, I'm choosing to ignore this because of his meta for today for better or for worse. He's yet another person I want to see more of more than someone I don't think we should be keeping around, for now. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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I collapse in my bed with a few hours to go, and out of nowhere someone who hadn't even been considered previously was lynched. Bad call on Errandor, I really didn't see that happening, and I guess I'm not the only one On September 19 2011 05:29 Navillus wrote: Okay why on earth do we have 2 people attempting to start new wagons with like 3 hours until lynch, we are not lynching supersoft or erandorr today and if you leave your votes there for the lynch you'll be my first targets come tomorrow. I did find something I consider interesting amongst all the posts On September 19 2011 10:46 Mr. Wiggles wrote: @Wherebugsgo: I don't think scum would be dumb enough to do that. If the point of the plan was to get the ring, do you really think they would have looked over that major detail? Based on the number of players, there should be maybe 5-6 mafia (maybe less, rough estimate), so it seems unlikely that none of them would catch it. As well, it seems unlikely that if it was a mafia ploy they would have had Jackal deliver the plan. Even if one could give away the ring during the day, it would draw a lot of attention to the person proposing it, due to certain short-comings. It makes more sense to get one of the lesser experienced mafia members to propose it, because heat being drawn to them isn't as bad, and it can more easily be passed off as not thinking it through enough. The rest of that quote isn't really relevant, but here is the list of people that voted on Errandor On September 19 2011 09:03 jcarlsoniv wrote: And the subsequent bandwagon happened VERY quickly. I'm more than willing to bet there are multiple scum on this list: Palmar Radfield Syllogism prplhz kitaman27 OriginalName Vain TranceStorm xtffc If we filter the list with the people that posted a plan to change the holder of the ring it leaves TranceStorm. I would have waited for day to point this out but I didn't want to risk it. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 19 2011 21:37 chaos13 wrote: Hey guys, sorry my activity level has been down, I've been pretty busy. Hopefully I'll be able to contribute more this week. I haven't had a chance to read the case(s) on Erandorr in much depth but whenever town flips as a lynch D1 there will be at least one scum on their wagon. Granted, this time around he was lynched with a very small percentage of votes so it's possible that they stayed away from it. Either way look at the vote lists of people who didn't get lynched and you'll find scum. Especially on WBG (assuming he is town or third party and not mafia himself) because that is an easy justification for mafia vote D1. He was being pretty much useless and this gives them a great excuse to vote for someone. Check out Dr.H, iGrok, and Jackal on that list. All three players should know better. Sorry I couldn't be around to do more than vote and leave again yesterday. I'll do my best to be more present in the future. It essentially boils down to Radcliff bringing him up and Errandor failing to defend anything, and about about 8 | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 20 2011 01:54 wherebugsgo wrote: Thank god someone else noticed this. The whole point of me calling out Dr. H was to expose this contradiction. He said he had no scum reads, then said Erandor is probably scum and didn't vote him despite saying he would vote someone other than me once he actually had scum reads. Somewhere in there he magically goes from me bein third party to being scum solely because no one else thinks I am scum. I find it strange behaviour for sure, but consider this: Errandor is bandwagoned at the last minute. Errandor flips blue. WBG tries to cast suspicion on people who didn't last minute change their vote to Errandorr off him. Also of note is that in WBG's argument he conveniently forgets that his play style changed from trolling to serious. WBG wised up somewhere in between the first and second post here. That is why I'm not sold. I think either Radfield is mafia trying to save WBG and/or prphlz, or more likely mafia found it a convenient person to bandwagon to save WBG and/or prp after Radfield's argument came up. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 20 2011 02:50 syllogism wrote: Cyber_Cheese who do you think is scummy? Your activity has been very low and your only post that could be characterized as a contribution is a list post in which you don't really find anyone scummy, except sort of the person you are voting based on rather flimsy reasoning. I'd rather save all the convincing arguments until daytime where they will be useful, and I can throw my initial vote in alongside them. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 20 2011 04:23 wherebugsgo wrote: Was this post serious? Surprised no one caught it. No, it was an excuse to put it off because I don't actually have them written up. Since you want my thoughts, I'm going to give basic versions for now. My current plan is to write something up on TranceStorm come day 2, and possibly other people involved in swinging the vote to someone none of us would have considered at the time I last posted on day 1. I believe one of you/prphlz/DrH is scum, but I'm not sure which, and I'm leaning towards checking you first because you changed your vote the most, possibly looking for bandwagons, but the list of people that swung the vote seems more relevant to me. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 20 2011 04:43 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Why aren't they useful at night? As a townie, you want to get your reads out before the day time somehow, in case you get shot, but if you think they're very important or game-changing, right before the deadline, so that mafia can't react and change their hits to cause chaos or WIFOM. Waiting until day is a good way to get shot without letting your opinion be known, so I'm not sure why you aren't worried about that. Or maybe you aren't worried about being shot... Hmmm... No, it's because of timezones, I could easily have fallen asleep by the deadline. (7am) I work during the afternoon so being up now (4am) is common. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 20 2011 04:56 wherebugsgo wrote: IMO You get on the right track toward the end but it's bad to assume things. Think about the justifications for your assumptions and see if they're valid. What reason is there for assuming only one of us 3 could be scum? Could we all be scum? Could there be two of us as scum? Could we all NOT be scum? If you make an incorrect assumption and base the rest of your argument around it your argument will look okay, but it'll be really wrong. Mafia, in addition, will jump all over it and make you a target. Unless, ofc, you're scum, in which case I'm want to believe that you actually have no valid opinions. That was a summary of my current beliefs, it's not to say I'm not open to suggestion, and the relation to you three and the swung vote is something I plan on looking into further. Rest assured that you aren't really my primary focus at the moment WBG. I'm willing to chalk the multiple votes up to your huge amount of activity and the voting insecurities that come with Day 1, and you've been much more active than many of the people who swung the vote, added to the fact that you didn't end with a vote on Errandor. As an aside, it comes across that you feel the need to discredit everybody. I maybe looking at it the wrong way and be wrong about that, but either way, I'd like to remind you. One does not simply discredit into Mordor. + Show Spoiler + OH YEAH 37 COOL POINTS! | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 20 2011 05:29 wherebugsgo wrote: Au contraire I believe I have pointed out that there are people in this town who have been posting fairly logically. Examples that come to mind are Radfield (though his read was wrong) sandroba, to some extent Syllogism, and jcarl. People who aren't making sense but probably town: Pyo, TranceStorm People who I think are scum: Dr. H, Jackal, Drazerk. Possibly a couple others as well but I will not reveal those names yet. The vast majority of the other players fall into some sort of null/fenceish category Yeah I just really wanted to be the first to use the Mordor line more than anything, it's not actually that accurate. It was a recent impression that I realised was wrong from your filter. hence all the looking at it wrong way buisness. On September 20 2011 05:30 wherebugsgo wrote: There's a specific reason for this. It's actually not terribly hard to figure out, either. Survival instinct, and I'd love to continue talking about it but it seems like it would sidetrack the scum hunt. What makes you think TraceStorm might be town? | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 20 2011 05:50 wherebugsgo wrote: Trancestorm is town IMO because of the way he posts. He responds to a lot of things and it appears he puts in more genuine effort than most other players in this game. In addition his plan wrt to the ring was bad but it actually promoted discussion. After I pushed him a little and he posted more I saw less and less to suggest that he's scum. Is he for sure town? Certainly we don't know anything yet, but there are better focuses today. Also, bolded is wrong. Any town players reading this should ask why I would ask for the ring. If you can understand my behavior from my POV then you will see why I was concerned with the easy lynch wagon on me (and the players I found to be scummiest who had left their votes there) Well assuming does make an ass out of me, I figured nobody wants to die in mafia, and discrediting the person making the argument can be more effective than discrediting the argument. I agree that once you picked your game up you weren't a sensible a vote, and from your point of view I can understand an annoyance at the people who didn't decide to cut you a break after you did pick your game up. I'm not entirely sold on that making them necessarily scummy. There is one more question I have for you, what is your opinion on prphlz, the other person that was leading the vote before the swing? And for that matter, prphlz, what's your opinion on WBG? You both never voted on each other at any point yesterday, despite multiple vote changes. And finally I want to drag some of the other much less mentioned people who swung the vote forward, but one thing at a time. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
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On September 20 2011 17:27 Pyo wrote: man, I look away from the thread for about a couple hours and this crazy shit happens...anyway, what an incredibly scummy thing to say... Filtering a confirmed mafia scummy? The most dismissive DocH got was on TranceStorm here: On September 17 2011 15:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote: TranceStorm has a bad plan. Big deal, hopefully he can be made to see the problem with it. The main problem is that this game is not about confirming townies using mechanics we don't understand the goal is to find and catch scum. Wherebugsgo I don't know your metagame but here's what I see. 1. begging for the ring in every post 2. vague allusions to why you want it 3. voting for TranceStorm and FOSing him with no reasons. You're playing absolutely detrimental to town. This is not pro-town play, it is not how we catch scum. It's how shit gets stirred and people always let bad scum like this slide (coag in countless games) because they figure "oh no way scum would act so brashly or bad". ##Vote wherebugsgo At the very least, if you aren't scum, you are a stellar example of how town players should never act I'm preparing more evidence in a little while, really need to catch up on MLP mafia, but if you need more immediately filter me I've been FOS'ing him a bit ##Vote TranceStorm | ||
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