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! [G] lil pvp guide

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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BigBalls
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States5354 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-18 18:45:49
April 12 2005 05:17 GMT
#1
[UPDATED]

It's been quite a while since I've played BW, let alone written any sort of strategy help. However, it's not like I really forgot anything, maybe some timing issues, but I think I can still explain the game as lucidly as in the past.

I just learned of a new patch that has come out since my absence, although I am not aware of any major balance changes (albeit i haven’t even looked at the patch). So I will assume my old style of play would work just as effectively now as it did in the past.

There are 3 or 4 strategies I commonly use when I play PvP, and adaptations to all of them. These strategies depend on map, opponent, and simply the mood I'm in. I'll go through each one in detail and describe when I would use each, hopefully along with some replays for reference use.

(NOTE: I have become aware of a program that can quickly change the patch you want to view replays in. All of these replays will be in 1.11, so set your program to this patch)


2-Gate Zealot Builds:
On maps like guillotine, my preferred opening is 2 gate. I also do 2 gate builds in close positions on LT, and maps that have closer starting positions to each other. (I will use guillotine and close position LT as my 2 constant examples). There are exceptions to this rule though, i.e. if your opponent is cross map from you, it is not optimal to 2 gate.

I would move out, make your pylon as close to your choke as possible, then scout in an optimal direction. (This will take some timing practice as you need to find the optimal time for a probe to start moving out). For example, if you are 3:00 on LT, make your pylon just above your ramp, then scout towards 12:00. If you are on guillotine, make your pylon in the area connecting your main to your natural, then scout cross map. The idea behind scouting here is, you scout in the direction that will change your strategy. Under normal circumstances on LT, I would 1 gate while on guillotine I would 2 gate. However, in the special close position scenario on LT and far position on guillotine, I would adapt my normal strategy.

Assume that when you scout you find your opponent to be in a position close to you. So on LT, your opponent is at 12, while on guillotine your opponent is NOT cross map. You should make your first gateway on 10 always, then your second on 12, both as close to your opponent as possible without inhibiting exit from your base or building placement. Make a pylon soon after and start rallying your gates to his base.

Scenarios that will occur:
1. Your opponent will also 2 gate. In this situation, be aware of whose gateway finishes first, as a zealot race will surely ensue. If his zealot finishes first and goes off to the races to your base, block your ramp. The reasoning behind this is, he could kill an extra probe in the time it takes your zealot to reach him, and now you are behind. It is extremely important in mirror matches that you try and stay ahead, not only in efficiency, but also with tech and units. This being said, keep your probe alive in his base, and use your judgment on whether to bring your units to him and pressure, or to defend and start teching. In either case I would try to gas before him. After gas, I would make a few goons then decide on a plan of action. Subscenarios that could occur:
a. Your opponent continued pumping zealots like a madman and didn’t tech fast enough. In a situation like this, either DT or reaver tech will work very nicely. If it is on guillotine, I would lead towards the dt route, while on LT I would lean towards a reaver route to give you more scouting options (i.e. dropping a probe off in his base by way of shuttle).
b. Your opponent made a few goons and dispatched of your probe. Make your robo, get shuttle, observer and reaver in that order, sending your shuttle to his base with 2 probes to scout, and your observer to your choke to prevent any dt raids. If he went 3 gate goon, make a few goons and expo with 2 reavers. If he went 2 gate goon, robo expo, throw up a 3rd gate, pressure him and take the expo down with reaver/goon support. If he went dt, defend your ramp, drop a probe off on his cliff (if lt obviously), and tech dt yourself. The best counter to someone going DT is a DT counter as they are far behind in cloak scouting. Keep good tabs on him to see if he makes a robo and if he decides to start mixing in stormers with his slashers.

2. Your opponent does not 2 gate. If he fast goons, you have a ton of options, one being eri’s prison, another being just continuous pressure while teching. If you choose to pressure, take care of your zealots, make sure they aren’t running around after goons while they get sniped with aid from probes. Send some zeals at goons, while others work on probes. You want to hurt his economy while boosting yours. If he 1 gate zealots and techs, pressure him a bit, but tech sooner. You shouldn’t rely on a zealot rush to win because it could easily backfire on you. You also need to start teching asap in case he does as well. If your rush fails and he is far ahead in tech and you are left guessing which tech route he chose, you are in serious trouble. Throw up a robo after your core finishes, and just start pumping goons. You need detection sooner and you need more goons. You have to be very meticulous playing like this. If he goes reaver, you need to scout well, protect your mineral lines, be ready to expand on the spot if he does and also be able to slow his attacks while you build up. Unit positioning in games like this are critical, you need to make the most of your goon armies against reavers. Another note on anti reaver games: I tend to tech to templars later in these games, sticking with mainly goons for a while to counter his goon/reaver armies. I’ll get to a lot of the mid game stuff in a bit.


1 gate build:
I label this as a 1 gate build because I don’t open with 2 gate zealots. This is my standard build which I use on most maps, except for early expo maps or highly adaptive maps (like chow chow, where I just make up my build as I go along). Make your pylon on 8, gate on 10, assim on 12, make a few zealots, then core, blah blah. Basically just do your favorite 1 gate Protoss opening till you get a cyber core. If your opponent 2 gates and does not seem to be letting up you might want to make a 2nd gateway after your assim then pump zealots for a little while. Otherwise, make your cyber core first, then decide what to do.

With these builds, you have 2 primary options and a secondary option depending on your opponent. The 2 main options are 2 gate goon followed up with robo then 3 gate goon/obs or 2 gate goon into reaver. Your secondary option is to go dt, which I don’t advise as more than a situational/surprise/change up strat.

3 gate goon: As stated before, this type of strategy is heavily based on scouting, unit positioning and reaction. Ill explain mostly what to do against reaver, cause that’s the hardest. You need to keep observers scouting everywhere searching for roaming shuttles (ill supply a replay of what can go wrong when going goons and losing sight of shuttles), pressure with your units so if your opponent goes reaver he must slowly advance while you can build up. Your goal with the pressure is to be able to build 6 extra goons before your opponent arrives. You must keep a probe at his expansion and do not expand until he expands. If he goes 3 gate goon/reaver and just pumps units he will run you over. If your money starts to build up and he has no expansions, throw down a 4th gateway. Keep an active check on island expansions, other mains, and everywhere he could possibly expand just to make sure hes not making a hidden expo on you. After you expand, throw up another gate and pump goons for a while, and when you have money for it, then tech to templars with zealot speed. You should keep goon production up for longer to counter his reaver/goons and THEN switch over to zealot/temp.

if your opponent doesn’t reaver, you have some other options. I tend to try and expo a little late to be on the safe side, cause I feel comfortable entering a macro war with someone, then I just macro to all hell.

2 gate+reaver: I like going reaver cause it allows an easier expansion. I feel a little constricted doing this because its against my style. Im slow, and I like having a lot of obs everywhere. However, if you go reaver, you might want to add shuttle speed, do some raids every so often, possibly take an island, and do much more active pressuring. the 3 gate goon pressuring is passive, you adapt to his attacks and back off slowly. this pressuring has to force his units back, put him in an uncomfortable position, and set up your expansions/macro.

The mid game is just a flat out macro battle with intense unit positioning. The micro is minimal, but you need to have great scouting, keep up with upgrades, good storming and good multitasking. If you have the speed for it, storm drops are great. The ultimate goal of mid game is to secure at least 3 gas and be pumping zeal/archon/temp like its your job.

Late game is the same as mid game, just more of it. I throw in arbiters after I have 3 gas secured and 2+ forges upgrading. They are extremely useful, especially in max out games and games where opponents try and carrier surprise you.

To sum it up, the keys to pvp are:
1. scouting constantly, not only for shuttles carrying payloads of reavers/temps, but for expansions, particularly ones that could get easily fortified and impenetrable
2. macro macro macro
3. upgrading
4. efficiency
5. unit positioning
6. countering


here is a rep of me v rek on chow chow where i lose. http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=27932

notice the power of arbiters, how much scouting helps, the slightly weird strat in the beginning, and the adaptations. ill add more later too, sorry if its a little convoluted, just wanted to get some stuff out there cause i dont see much good shit on pvp.



EDIT: here is a 2nd replay that shows a lot of important things about pvp. http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=27957

This game shows how much countering dt with dt works. I get off to a huge advantage by surprising rek with dt after he opens them. It also shows what can happen if I fight without my entire army, I leave a lot of shit behind and nearly lose the game, but manage to even it off cause of my lead. It shows the importance of upgrades and unit positioning, especially holding bridges. It shows the importance of scouting (imagine how much better I would have done with a dt at each expo slowing his income rate) and how much storm drops can slow an opponent. And finally, it shows how much arbiters can turn a game around, look at the stasis at the end, his entire army frozen, and im left to finish him off.
if you guys could use google and post direct links to the maphacks here it would be greatly appreciated. - Nazgul
hasuwar
Profile Joined April 2003
7365 Posts
April 12 2005 05:48 GMT
#2
oanage
Diablo3 ID: Exalted#1710 -------R.I.P. http://hasuwar.isgsa.org. Much love to Toptalent
iNCuBuS_
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States905 Posts
April 12 2005 06:00 GMT
#3
Holy shit thats long... Thanks BigBalls
iNCuBuS_
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States905 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-04-12 06:05:41
April 12 2005 06:02 GMT
#4
On April 12 2005 14:17 BigBalls wrote:
(NOTE: I have become aware of a program that can quickly change the patch you want to view replays in. All of these replays will be in 1.11, so set your program to this patch)

Yes, the 7x patcher. Let me get a link for you.
Edit: 7x Patcher
There we go.
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16993 Posts
April 12 2005 06:30 GMT
#5
That was a very nice read. Cleared a few timing things out for me, and I'm sure it'll do much more for other players.
Moderator
VdP]EpiphaNy
Profile Joined March 2004
United Kingdom992 Posts
April 12 2005 06:42 GMT
#6
very nice read, much appreciated, many thanks
Reach - I love protoss because its tough and straight. Its a race for the men
MuShu
Profile Joined March 2005
United States3223 Posts
April 12 2005 06:46 GMT
#7
Thx a lot BigBalls! Really great read. :D
ManaBlue
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Canada10458 Posts
April 12 2005 06:59 GMT
#8
Nice, thanks!
ModeratorTL VOD legends: Live2Win, hasuprotoss, Cadical, rinizim, Mani, thedeadhaji, Kennigit, SonuvBob, yakii, fw, pheer, CDRdude, pholon, Uraeus, zatic, baezzi. The contributors make this site what it is. *Props to FakeSteve for respecting the guitar gods*
Carnac
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Germany / USA16648 Posts
April 12 2005 07:03 GMT
#9
ok, you posted in the strategy forum again, now it's time for a bigballs story!
ModeratorHi! I'm a .signature *virus*! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread!
BigBalls
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States5354 Posts
April 12 2005 07:20 GMT
#10
hah

ok ill ship a long one out in a few days
if you guys could use google and post direct links to the maphacks here it would be greatly appreciated. - Nazgul
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
April 12 2005 07:55 GMT
#11
good read :D

I like to see some pvp stuff since im just feeling like im getting a decent idea of the matchup. Its pretty damn complicated. Harder then pvt, but the overall game pretty learnable unlike pvz. :/

I hope you dont mind if i comment/ask questions in detail, but you typed you were not done yet so ill wait until you finish.

I've written up a bit of stuff about pvp and ill post this part I've just edited:


____________________________________________________________________
Template of pvp builds (earlygame):

-2gate builds:
--9/10g
--10/12gate ->15z,17z
--10/12gate -> 15-16p -> 172xZ
**note that other gate builds are certainly possible, but these 3 are the main ones used. Don't see why anyone would have a great reason for using something else.

-1gate core builds:
**note that builds are done with the usually 10g ->12assim->13core.
--core->goon
--core->zeal->goon

-1gate zeal builds:
**note that the following builds may be done with p or assim right after gate build.
--z -> core -> goon
--z-> z-> core -> goon
--z-> z-> core -> z -> goon
--z-> core -> z -> goon
**I suppose others may be used, but, (again) i dont see why anyone would want to.
**note that core and/or goon may be delayed in favor of getting a faster 2nd gate (usually done vs. a 2gate build).
**note that in the 6v9 position on LT players sometimes go robo before goon.

-Other:
--Early expo
--early forge builds
--any other odd builds i may have forgotten or not know about.
--any spicific parts of the other builds i did not cover ;p
**dont mind the BIG 4 options list with these


After those openings there are 4 BIG options:
-G (but, not if you went for 2gate before core, obvisouly)
-range
-robo
-citadel
___________________________________________________________________


Probably does not help signifiantly with ones game, but its nice to see all the info in front of me.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
ApollyoN
Profile Joined April 2003
United States1297 Posts
April 12 2005 08:06 GMT
#12
nice read =]
Bill307
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Canada9103 Posts
April 12 2005 08:15 GMT
#13
Thanks for the guide . I especially agree with unit positioning being very important in PvP battles.
chrusher97
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Canada811 Posts
April 12 2005 08:22 GMT
#14
yep
BigBalls
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States5354 Posts
April 12 2005 08:25 GMT
#15
the most important part about pvp is having your entire army together. if you leave units behind you are being extremely inefficient. this is really covered by efficiency but it isnt explicit.
if you guys could use google and post direct links to the maphacks here it would be greatly appreciated. - Nazgul
iNCuBuS_
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States905 Posts
April 12 2005 11:35 GMT
#16
I might as well post this here. Say its 12P v 6P. Im at 12, and we both have fairly large goon armies. Ive probably already taken my natural and 3min only, maybe even 3's main.
I usually like to position a group of goons off towards 9's choke and one towards 3's choke, and leave the rest above near 3min only and my main. The enemy usually goes right for my min only/main and then I am free to circle them with all the goons that come from 3 sides.
This is a good idea? Or should I keep them all clumped up near the 3min only?
BigBalls
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States5354 Posts
April 12 2005 11:56 GMT
#17
by that point in the game, you shouldnt have mainly goons. your army should consist mainly of zealots/archons/templars. so setting up flanks isnt as necessary, you just need your units spread out a bit.
if you guys could use google and post direct links to the maphacks here it would be greatly appreciated. - Nazgul
EvilTeletubby
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
April 12 2005 12:41 GMT
#18
Wow, very nice read.
Moderatorhttp://carbonleaf.yuku.com/topic/408/t/So-I-proposed-at-a-Carbon-Leaf-concert.html ***** RIP Geoff
LumberJack
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3355 Posts
April 12 2005 13:06 GMT
#19
4k in posts, hrm, never noticed u had so many
Man fears the darkness, and so he scrapes away at the edges of it with fire.
Malmis
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Sweden1569 Posts
April 12 2005 15:42 GMT
#20
<3 bigballs =]
To Suport@Bethsoft.com: okay so i completed morrowind.. um, can i have my life back now?
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