|
Let me preface this by stating that I'm all for making maps for use by all, and that balance that accounts for all three races is the cornerstone of a great map. But the following is an interesting idea that has struck me:
Which is, to design maps specifically to make each of the 3 mirror matches more interesting. Lots of players profess to hate mirror matches for one reason or another, and the reasoning is usually sound. Right off the bat, the maps would not be meant for any matchup, but designed for TvT, ZvZ, and PvP specifically.
Ideas that come to mind for TvT are having cliffs, Xel'Naga towers and such positioned in a way to make drop play and Siege Tank positioning more interesting and integral to success.
For ZvZ, a possibility would be having neutral creep tumors for spine crawler placement, or perhaps hidden tech, and also lots of small expansions to take, making it a much more violent game of managing expansions.
For PvP, perhaps there can be lots of small cliffs positioned to make for strategic pylon placement, as well as LoS blockers for hidden pylons.
Of course, these are just ideas, but I wanted to see what others thought before I gave it a shot, or someone else would. It seems like a map pool that varied in the event of a mirror match would make a tournament a lot more fun to watch, which is a major factor in the current tournament map design.
|
your Country52797 Posts
Interesting.
Could this also be a battleground to improve on those (very hard (ZvZ)) mirror matches?
Because that would be awesome.
|
TvT: No Fly Zone on the whole map
ZvZ: Island Map
PvP: Building Blocker everywhere but at the bases
Could make up for some fun games indeed 
|
I think the No-Fly map is a bit cruel, but perhaps putting No-Fly zones outside the main ground, basically making fliers cliffwalkers instead sounds better. I dunno, but nothing's set in stone. That's the point of the discussion here, to kinda just spitball ideas.
|
your Country52797 Posts
On August 18 2011 06:37 FlopTurnReaver wrote:TvT: No Fly Zone on the whole map ZvZ: Island Map PvP: Building Blocker everywhere but at the bases Could make up for some fun games indeed
NOO NOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
We need to provide insanely awesome games! Not "This map sucks for this race, and its always a mirror matchup of this race" games.
I suggest that someone make a map with 50 cliffs everywhere for TvT, creep tumors+ rocks+rocks+rocks+rocks for ZvZ, and tons of pylon placement possibilities but a watchtower with like 50 radius for PvP
|
Blood bath = perfect for pvp, no useless expansions and crap that doesn't get used anyways.
+ Show Spoiler +
If you want to make the matchups "better" you should aim at making the dominant strategy less viable, not more.
Unless you like the bloodbath idea, but then your view differs from the norm I'm afraid.
|
On August 18 2011 08:38 Grebliv wrote:Blood bath = perfect for pvp, no useless expansions and crap that doesn't get used anyways. + Show Spoiler +If you want to make the matchups "better" you should aim at making the dominant strategy less viable, not more. Unless you like the bloodbath idea, but then your view differs from the norm I'm afraid.
That map's pretty much the opposite of my idea for a PvP map.
The idea's not to make the match-up better, per se, but more exciting, by including features that are more usable by the race in question. Although the idea of encouraging different strategies is something I may want to implement.
|
bloodbath styles pvps are ALWAYS 2 gate or cannon fun. Flops suggestions are badass.
|
Yeah, this sounds very interesting.
Like maybe for ZvZ, you could have a Probe or an SCV randomly sitting somewhere, and they could go and use NP on it to start researching into other races tech.
Ahh...Brood Lords supported by Stalkers, Collosi protected by Ultralisks and vikings with a dash of infesters....
|
On August 18 2011 06:31 MisfortuneS Ghost wrote:
Let me preface this by stating that I'm all for making maps for use by all, and that balance is the cornerstone of a great map. But the following is an interesting idea that has struck me:
Which is, to design maps specifically to make each of the 3 mirror matches more interesting. Lots of players profess to hate mirror matches for one reason or another, and the reasoning is usually sound. Right off the bat, the maps would not be meant for any matchup, but designed for TvT, ZvZ, and PvP specifically.
Ideas that come to mind for TvT are having cliffs, Xel'Naga towers and such positioned in a way to make drop play and Siege Tank positioning more interesting and integral to success.
For ZvZ, a possibility would be having neutral creep tumors for spine crawler placement, or perhaps hidden tech, and also lots of small expansions to take, making it a much more violent game of managing expansions.
For PvP, perhaps there can be lots of small cliffs positioned to make for strategic pylon placement, as well as LoS blockers for hidden pylons.
Of course, these are just ideas, but I wanted to see what others thought before I gave it a shot, or someone else would. It seems like a map pool that varied in the event of a mirror match would make a tournament a lot more fun to watch, which is a major factor in the current tournament map design.
Fuck that shit for TvT. That would break the map in favor of Terran HEAVILY.
ZvZ, interesting idea. A good one actually. Also creates interesting dynamics for other matchups but can also screw things up for other matchups.
For PvP, you're fucking crazy. You want to make the matchup more fucking ridiculous than it already is?! And for other matchups, you're spending your time killing Pylons instead of asserting map control so you don't die to a dumb counter or all in.
The creep idea is good, the rest are just breaking the map in favor of a race.
On August 18 2011 06:37 FlopTurnReaver wrote:TvT: No Fly Zone on the whole map ZvZ: Island Map PvP: Building Blocker everywhere but at the bases Could make up for some fun games indeed
For TvT, does that mean you can't use air units, or no dead space? I like the latter because it means you can't hide drops.
For the ZvZ idea, that seems interesting, but island maps are inherently terrible for the game. It also becomes Terran favored because Terran can make 2 CCs before Barracks and fly them over.
I LOVE the idea for PvP. Screw proxy of ALL kinds! But this will be a problem for Zerg. They can't spread creep this way can they? Maybe they can... But building blocker means you have to increase base space since later on you'll start to feel REALLY cramped. But I think this will be great for Zerg. Since they don't have to worry about Bunker rushes or Protoss all ins, they can macro that much harder (but then PvZ will be near impossible unless you create a new build that allows you to harass Z well enough so that they can't Drone up like crazy and still be able to not lose if it doesn't pan out; meaning Sentry count will be HUGE before AND after a battle to allow for retreat options).
|
On August 18 2011 11:59 RyLai wrote:
Wall of text
You don't understand the idea evidently. The idea is to design a map specifically for a certain mirror match. Obviously a TvT map is going to favor terran. I mean, there's nothing to keep you from using a different race, but that really breaks the spirit of this little game we've got here.
|
wow interesting idea, perhaps they could incorporate these as substitutes whenever there is a mirror match? or at least throw in a couple of these in their pool, to make mirrors more interesting (at least ZvZ, but especially so for PvP)
|
I've begun work on my protoss map. The layout is pretty much done, next is simply aesthetics. Will upload and begin work on the next one when finished.
|
On August 18 2011 06:49 TehTemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 06:37 FlopTurnReaver wrote:TvT: No Fly Zone on the whole map ZvZ: Island Map PvP: Building Blocker everywhere but at the bases Could make up for some fun games indeed NOO NOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO We need to provide insanely awesome games! Not "This map sucks for this race, and its always a mirror matchup of this race" games. I suggest that someone make a map with 50 cliffs everywhere for TvT, creep tumors+ rocks+rocks+rocks+rocks for ZvZ, and tons of pylon placement possibilities but a watchtower with like 50 radius for PvP
If you want to make games awesome, you need to make maps that focus less on abuses and more on just fundamentals. A few tactical touches are nice, but the players should discover those themselves instead of map-makers trying to sneak them in.
The map should be a medium-sized 3 or 4 spawn with relatively equal rush distances (basically no specifically close spawns). There should be a Creep Tumor at the bottom of the ramp to allow a Zerg to drop defensive Spine Crawlers before their Hatchery finishes and to block Pylon/Bunker walls. Players can still wall off their natural choke by killing the Creep Tumor (Protoss and Terran). There probably shouldn't be any bases in the center of the map (or at least not too close), or else we'll have a repeat of close air positions on the old Shakuras where you broke down your rocks, dropped a PF, and had less than a screen's worth of rush distance to your opponent's base. Instead, slightly forward expansions like those in Xel'Naga Fortress and Terminus should be used. There shouldn't necessarily be an "easy to take" third, but a reasonable one without rocks to block for or against it (something like Crossfire but not nearly as difficult to defend). While easy thirds like those in Terminus encourage macro games, things might go too far and we could just as easily see a turtle-fest where players only come out when they max out or need a fourth base (the ridiculous rush distances didn't help to discourage that either). Building blockers everywhere except a little outside of bases should do reasonably well to stop proxies or at least make them more predictable. A single or few Xel'Naga Towers overlooking a critical main or side route should be included, as well as being able to barely see the minerals of some expansions to allow for players to determine whether they are taken or not by periodically checking the minerals as opposed to looking for red dots on their minimap. Also, maybe the side routes should be narrow bridges to only allow for small strike forces to easily move through whereas main armies would file through? Then maybe rocks denying tactical positions or mining of gold expansions (like Testbug)? And maybe the natural expansion can have 9 mineral patches and the natural third base have 10 to give an extra incentive to expand and play macro-oriented games (then again, I guess the only race that cares about extra mineral income would be Terran)?
|
On August 18 2011 12:41 MisfortuneS Ghost wrote:You don't understand the idea evidently. The idea is to design a map specifically for a certain mirror match. Obviously a TvT map is going to favor terran. I mean, there's nothing to keep you from using a different race, but that really breaks the spirit of this little game we've got here.
If you're going to make maps JUST for mirror matches, you might as well go as ridiculous as possible. For example, PvP might as well be an island map or have a rush distance twice the size of Terminus because they're just going to abuse the warp in mechanic anyway. If you're just going to create a map where a single race can abuse it's race-specific mechanics all day, you should add in some map mechanics as well (no idea on how you'd do that) so things can actually become interesting instead of who is sneakier or who is better at that matchup. I'd rather see a balanced map with interesting features that CAN make mirror matches more interesting but more importantly makes a variety of different matchups much more dynamic and interesting.
|
Just play all PvPs on maps where you can't build forward pylons, haha, I love it.
|
On August 18 2011 13:22 RyLai wrote:
If you're going to make maps JUST for mirror matches, you might as well go as ridiculous as possible. For example, PvP might as well be an island map or have a rush distance twice the size of Terminus because they're just going to abuse the warp in mechanic anyway. If you're just going to create a map where a single race can abuse it's race-specific mechanics all day, you should add in some map mechanics as well (no idea on how you'd do that) so things can actually become interesting instead of who is sneakier or who is better at that matchup. I'd rather see a balanced map with interesting features that CAN make mirror matches more interesting but more importantly makes a variety of different matchups much more dynamic and interesting.
I find it interesting how you can point out all the faults of a map I haven't even finished yet. As for balance, I'm not going ridiculous in my work so far, but it's specifically to facilitate one matchup, so yes, Protoss(in this case) will have a slight edge. My goal is to make the mirror match something entirely different, something more interesting and fun. You can poke holes in it if you want, but my goal here is not a utopian balance. Keep that in mind for further comments.
|
On August 18 2011 06:37 FlopTurnReaver wrote:TvT: No Fly Zone on the whole map ZvZ: Island Map PvP: Building Blocker everywhere but at the bases Could make up for some fun games indeed
Sick suggestions! No fly zone on the whole map would be kinda retarded tho, everywhere you can't walk would be acceptable I guess. ZvZ and PvP idea rocks!
I'd certainly love to see some mirror maps
edit: It'd certainly be possible to have a "mirror map" in a normal map pool, meaning it's basically three maps that can only be played in a specific mirror. Every player would only have to learn one of them (and only for one matchup) and when vetoing/loser's choice it's one map as well 
Unfortunately map pools atm are way way way too stale and conservative to do something like this. Maybe in the far future, like 5 years from now, when both add-ons are out and people want to see something new ^^
|
I think that if you want to make the map be diffrent for every mirror you might whant to make the map simmilar to one and other, same name (whit P/T/Z "tag") same texture same size.. you only change the things you need to make it a fun mirror match...
|
On August 18 2011 20:12 PrivetNiCeGuY wrote:
I think that if you want to make the map be diffrent for every mirror you might whant to make the map simmilar to one and other, same name (whit P/T/Z "tag") same texture same size.. you only change the things you need to make it a fun mirror match...
I actually had just the opposite idea. There are a fair amount of level themes that fit terran, protoss, and zerg individually, like Mar Sara, Shakuras, and Char to name a few. The idea here is to make the map for their mirror fit their theme. At least, that's what I'll be aiming for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/246_Blood%20Bath.jpg)
