Introduction Here is my new map that I will probably submit to next MotM and certainly use in my next monthly tournament after that. What I wanted to do was a 4 players map with axis (not rotation) symetry, since I think it's more balanced, with the main not closed by map borders and the natural away from your oponent (like a 4 players desert oasis, but without the natural miles away from your ramp), and have a big non pathable center to create at least 2 attack paths (wich is the case for Metalopolis and Xelnaga caverns, for example, and those proven to be good maps with lots of strategic options and interesting games). The result is a big map, because it's 4 players and with naturals away from oponent in every position it means extra space between mains and borders, with very long ground distances but short air and cliff distances, lots of attack path, a natural expansion quite safe from air and drops but open to 2 opposites attack paths by ground, and on the other hand a main safe by ground but vulnerable to drops and air (and eventually reapers/blink harass). Also main has a second ramp with destructible rocks, but since they are easy to defend they are meant more as a way to break a contain or as a shortcut to your third (if you expand that way) than as a threat.
Map infos - 4 players (1v1, 2v2, FFA, no spawn restriction) - Bases : 14 blue - 2 XNT - Playable size : 158x163 - Available on EU
On April 28 2011 05:16 WniO wrote: hmm i really like this layout, reminds me of old blizzard bw maps. the aesthetics are nice but is it laggy?
hmmm on my old crapy PC it's a bit laggy on the north part near the small volcanos (settings on low), probably due to some flame or smoke doodads, rest of the map was fine for me, my roommate has a better PC and no lag (settings on ultra). I'd need more feedback about that to see if I need to remove some doodads or not.
On April 28 2011 05:21 Mereel wrote: do i see tank shells on my mineralz?
Yeah, I was a bit concerned about that but I think it's not worse than Taldarim altar, only part of the mineral line is in range, you have to place your tank close to the cliff where they are easily sniped, and they don't help to set a contain. If under siege on your main you can easily go for a counter and/or fall back to your natural. Also it was my goal to have a vulnerable main and a safe natural with that layout. Reapers and blink stalker are more dangerous than tanks here imho, but I'll try to test it against tanks.
I really dislike the backdoor into the main, especially since it's closer to the enemy so therefore will be the main attack route. Not only is it a backdoor but it's right next to the main mineral line.
It seems it'll be too tough to take a 3rd because you will have to spread yourself across 1/2 the map.
Honestly I just wouldn't feel safe at all on this map, even though you say the natural is safe, it really isn't because both the paths to it are just so open. You'll be too busy bringing your army from your natural to the edges of your base and back again to defend. Also be careful that the watchtowers don't give any vision into the main otherwise warp in will completely destroy the map.
I could see getting rid of the 12 and 6 o clock bases and add thirds to each base right next to the natural but down the ramp, so you could still get a 3rd base much easier but you'd still have many attack paths you'd have to watch out for.
Small update : moved the main mineral line 1 cell away from the cliff and added some trees on the low ground to prevent tanks and thors and colossi to get too close (small units can move between those trees but not big units), also added some textures (hope it won't bug the minimap or the loading screen, it happens to me sometimes with textures from different sets).
On April 28 2011 22:38 FlopTurnReaver wrote: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat made Blistering Sands a terrible map!
BAACK DOOR BAACK DOOR!!
On blistering sands it was bad because it was shorter for the attacker to bounce between ramp and backdoor than for the defender, not the case here and ramp and backdoor are close enough to defend both, I don't think it will be too much of a problem and will just make it a bit harder for people to turtle on 1 base.
So I got my scorecard and feedback from MotM for this map :
Yeah man, we had a hot and cool reaction to your map! Here are the average scores,
Balance: 4.8 Aesthetics: 8.0 Intangibles: 6.8
We loved the look, great theme and centerpiece, but balance is a big problem. First of all, you can seige the main's mineral line from the center, we tried. That's fixable but an issue.
The bigger issue is the Desert Oasis problem but extra complicated by the four-player factor. So in Desert Oasis you could go two ways around your main towards the center of the map, and even though it proved to have high spectator value, players HATED IT. Some loved it, but lots of hate. The natural is always a problem because it seems impossible to protect.
There may be a place for this style of map, and it certainly looks and feels fun, but we decided against it for competitive play.
Good luck on your next map!
-dimfish
On May 13 2011 09:47 monitor wrote: Volcano – Sweet aesthetics! I’ve never seen a good use of Typhon and Tarsonis, really good. I like how the trees blend in well- although make sure not to overdo it. You might consider making some areas more rocky, instead of the whole thing being mostly trees. The manmade pathways leading from the main to natural isn’t my favorite, it looks weird and sort of out of place. Maybe make those patches of manmade, and include some patches of man-made cliffs?
My main concern is how forced and choked a lot of the paths are. The paths leading around the main are fairly wide, but have no options for troop movement. This will make maneuvering a 200/200 army quite impossible, and also make forcefields/Planetary Fortresses/siege tanks very powerful. However, I think this issue is sort of unavoidable with the main set-up you have now. In the future, definitely try to avoid this imbalance.
In vertical positions, the main to main distance is too short when you break the back door. Horizontal positions the pathways are to small to use nicely. Cross positions has a too long ground distance. It is really long- and the air distance is so much shorter, counter attacking will be quite hard.
I noticed the mains can be sieged from low ground. On maps like Shakuras Plateau, its not an issue because its easy to get to the tanks. Here however, the distance around your main is quite long, and will make early tank play very hard to deal with. Again, just something to avoid.
And I don't totally agree with all of this. Don't get me wrong, I respect the MotM staff's decision and analysis, but I don't think of balance the same way. True, the main is siegeable, I reduced the impact it had on the first version but still made it possible, if I'm not mistaken you can't siege the gas geysers and main building, and one tank can only reach half of the mineral line. That would make tanks, thus terrans OP. Now about the natural, the 2 entrances make it "impossible" or at least very hard to defend with only simcity, especially against zerg, Also the long distances and many attack paths make the speed zerglings the only good unit for counterattacks. Oh and also destructible rocks on the main, especially placed on the bottom of the ramp where more melee units can attack at once. All of this makes zeglings OP. Now paths with chokes obviously makes the forcefield very strong, and the position of the main makes it easy to attack/cliff harass with blink stalkers and colossi. Then protoss is OP. It's not that I didn't think about any of these points, but I thought that every race had an imbalance advantage and that overall they balanced each other. It's more a "style imbalance" than a "race imbalance" maybe.
On the same mindset I run a monthly tournament on my maps, I know some of them are Z/T/P favored, but I think it's still OK as long as I get one map favored for each race and overall the mappool is still balanced (and it's BO3 or BO5). I think it's the case also for the current ladder mappool, some matchups on certain maps are not balanced but overall it's ok.
Also I play zerg and after all I'm a bit concern it may affect my perception of wich expand is safe or not and about the imbalances of the maps (even if I played random for a long time and know other races units and watch a lot of pro games of every matchup), for zerg the natural here is quite safe, just have to make one spinecrawler between the ramp and 2nd hatch and it covers pretty much what it needs to, the 2 entrances is not really a problem and I even feel it's safer than the natural on Xelnaga.
So what is your opinion, how do you think of balance ? Should every map be equaly balanced for every unit / playstyle (wich could lead to a "standard mapmaking" and leave few room for creativity) or is it ok to have imbalances as long as they more or less cancel each other ? How does the race you play affect your mapmaking ?
PS : I'm glad people enjoyed the aesthetics on Volcano, I'm working on my next map and already spent 1 million hours on textures you can expect something cute too.
Disclaimer: bias defending my own map I think its good if there are some maps which demand other play styles. As a Protoss player it feels hard that a forge FE is impossible on this map. But I don't think stuff like that is a real problem. And it is at the very least too early into SC2 to tell what BO-no-nos break a map and what are alright. Some months ago the double natural of Terminus or the inbase natural of Crevasse would have seemed ridiculous, and maps like LT and Stepps of War seen not that much of a problem. So it is at the very least right to experiment.
I don't like it that the main mins are siegeable. And it seems really hard to get a third in horizontal positions. The long ways are a bit hard, but the backdoors help. (I shrank my map, to shorten the paths and now the vertical spawns are very aggressive and, as MotM pointed out, my paths are pretty thin.) I would like more of a main cliff to protecting the backdoor, like the main choke of LT is protected by the main cliff. I don't think that colossus are that OP because of there speed. It will take ages for them to retreat if you just walk them into the enemy main. I think the warp in is the bigger bonus for toss on this map. In the end only a ton of games will show if this map is balanced or not. Is it ok if it is not? I think it depends heavily on: "how much?" A bit better for one race, np. But always a uphill battle - no. And I think often a map is not specific imba for one race. But more like: Zerg has a strong and easy opening, then Terra has a strong mid game and Protoss gets crazy in the late game. (just as an example) This would lead to strategies with this strengths and weaknesses in mind and most of the time everything will be alright, if non of the 'imbalances' are too strong.
As zerg I feel quite safe taking a 3rd here, no matter what are the positions I can always expand away from my opponent and cover the attack paths by taking the XNT or with overlords on highgrounds or over the unpathable volcano. It's interesting to see that it's the opposite feeling for other races both for the nat and 3rd (I could guess it for the nat since it's hard to wall off efficiently and impossible to do it fast enough, but didn't imagine it would feel unconfortable for the 3rd). That's what I was talking about with the race I play influencing my mapmaking. And I agree with the problem of rush distances being either too long or too short, it's a difficult problem to deal with on 4p maps, I'm starting to think that the only good way to solve it is to have a layout similar to Shakuras plateau (with a restriction on close spawn and the 2 other spots roughly at the same distance).
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