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[D] SlayerSBoxer vs. MVPAvenge Unusual TvP Opening

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-22 23:42:35
April 22 2011 22:55 GMT
#1
GSL Spoilers

It's been a while because I've been sick This series best demonstrates Boxer's original take on the usual fast expand TvP build and the usefulness of dropping and pressure.

Game One:

+ Show Spoiler +
Boxer opens barracks with a delayed gas (probably on 15 or 16 but it is very difficult to tell because of how long the camera cuts away from the game for). The timing allows boxer to begin a reactor and expand at around the same time. He then pulls SCVs out of gas until two more barracks are started before putting SCVs back into gas. In the meantime, Avenge is doing a standard one gate expand, only leaving one probe in his second gas (most likely due to not being sure he wanted to fast expand).

Boxer then immediately gets two tech labs and begins pumping marauders. When concussive shell is finished he gets two more gases (putting him at 3) and begins a factory. Avenge in the meantime has gotten 3 gases, 4 gates, and a forge to start +1 armor. Boxer begins stim, a starport, a reactor, and an extremely fast 3rd command center and a late engineering bay. Boxer adds on more bunkers to defend the fact that he expanded and Avenge begins poking while beginning a twilight council and a robo (for +2 armor and colossus). A drop goes out as stim and combat shield finish and plus one attack starts. Avenge is doing a very standard two base build, going for +2 armor, blink, and colossus. Boxer moves out of his base to secure his third as Avenge get’s two more gateways, putting his count at 6, essentially making him all in unless he cuts units for a third.

Boxer gets two more barracks, a second e-bay, and an armory. Avenge moves out with his pure gateway force as his +2 finishes but doesn’t have any colossus. Boxer is able to push back his opponent as the sentries run out of energy. As Avenge is forced to pull back boxer loads up all of his medivacs. Avenge sees the drop and it goes pretty badly for boxer as a result.It doesn't really matter though since at this point the game is pretty much over as boxer has his third base running and avenge is too far behind to get a third himself. At this point Boxer’s medevac count is very high and he begins a fourth base and a ghost academy. The high medevac count and good micro allow Boxer to crush Avenge’s attack and force a gg from Avenge.


Analysis:

+ Show Spoiler +
I loved Boxer’s take on the standard one barracks fast expand. The fast expand that many players from Drewbie to MarineKing do is a no gas 3 or 4 barracks pure marine to defend until you think you’re safe expand. What Boxer does though is essentially the same thing but it allows for much better gas timings as well as faster marauders, medevacs, and third base. It’s obvious that boxer feels vulnerable when beginning his third base due to his bunker spam down, so the build probably has trouble with early two base colossus timings.

Avenge did a super standard and strong protoss opening, the defining moment was when he decided to add on two more gateways, as 6 warp gate is a huge two base attack, never mind 6 warp gates, a forge, twilight council, and colossus. But if you’re a protoss having trouble with general macro focused PvT builds, he did a very standard opening, just cut the two extra gateways and expand instead.

Another fun aspect of Boxer’s build is its ability to mass up medvacs quickly. His build allows for a lot of gas at the right timings for the starports. A great tactic to employ in TvP is double marauder dropping, as you can stim and snipe forges or robo bays, delaying protoss by a huge amount and often forcing an attack out of them. You’ll notice that Boxer’s two medvacs finish right around when stim hits, you could use this to do a super-fast maurader drop and snipe tech.

Avenge also did not use FF to the best of his ability, you want to cut the army in battle, but avenge really just kept the army back, which is not helpful for zealots.

Also notice how many barracks Boxer had when the game was over (I believe it was 9) this style is awesome because you have a mobile, replenishing force allowing you to expand all over. Another important timing to note is Boxer’s second e-bay finishes with his armory to immediately begin +2. Boxer’s build does have later upgrades but allows for more expansions and unit power to make up for it.


TL;DR

+ Show Spoiler +
Terran: Boxer's cool take on the 1 rax fast expand, staying on top of upgrades, protecting a fast third

Protoss: Importance of good forcefields, how a standard macro game can become a two base all in


Game Two:

+ Show Spoiler +
Boxer does approximately the same build as last game, just with a slightly earlier gas, while Avenge proxies a twilight council and rushes for dark Templar. Boxer moves out with three SCVs to begin bunkers at his natural. I have to think that boxer knows there is no expansion for avenge because he gets his e-bay at 6:15 which is earlier than last game and a turret completes just in time to stop the DTs.

Avenge expands behind his DTs, using them for map control and begins a robo facility. Boxer gets a faster +1 then last game and a later combat shield as a result. Avenge begins charge and two more gateways and a forge putting him at 5 gate robo, but he begins a 6th gate. Boxer gets a ghost academy instead of a third base, knowing his opponent is delaying his third as well. Boxer does a double medvac drop and snipes the robo facility. Boxer begins another e-bay and continues upgrades while getting a third base at a similar time to Avenge. Avenge begins blink and +2 armor and boxer begins +2 +2. Boxer is going marine maurader ghost medvac while Avenge is gearing up for double robo colossus.

Boxer begins a second ghost academy and cloak, +3 +3 for his infantry and ship weapons +1. Perfect forcefields trap Boxer’s infantry into the ramp as Boxer moves out to attack, preventing kiting, combined with not having any Vikings for the colossus, Boxer gets rolled over after that engagement and is forced to gg.


Analysis:

+ Show Spoiler +
This game essentially came down to where Boxer decided to engage, a reminder of the importance of positioning in TvP. Another factor was that when Boxer sniped the robo, I think he expected a double forge mass gateway follow up from Avenge since he already had so much gateway tech, but instead Avenge went double robo colossus, Boxer’s indication that that he didn’t expect this was the lack of Vikings.

Another aspect I like of Boxer’s play is how fast he gets ghost, it’s usually around when he is taking his third base or just before he takes it. This timing allows for some great EMPs which to great against every protoss unit. In fact, if Boxer had hit the EMPs on the sentries, the force fields wouldn’t have been such a problem like they were that game.

Avenge did show a cool way to open dark Templar, he was able to win even though they did no damage. An idea for protoss players is to go three base on gateways and then suddenly go double robo, as this may be very effective as you are getting so many upgrades and terran won’t be expecting the transition.


TL;DR

+ Show Spoiler +
Terran: Importance of ghosts and/or general positioning with aggression and importance of scouting mass gateway vs. colossus play and when that tech switch can happen

Protoss: How to open DTs successfully even if they do no damage and the effectiveness of sudden tech changes


Game Three:

+ Show Spoiler +
Boxer again does his delayed gas reactor expand while Avenge does a standard 3 gate expand and is a little behind Boxer as a result unless he can put on some pressure. This time though Boxer turtles in his base longer than last game and cuts the third barracks for a faster starport and stim than the other games. Avenge goes to try and pressure boxer with his three gate but Boxer manages to hold with extra bunkers. Boxer appears to be going for super-fast double marine stim drop while adding on two more barracks. Boxers drop is denied doing little damage to avenge. Boxer starts two more barracks (total of 6) while grabbing his third base.

Boxer begins pumping Vikings and has bunkers up to protect his faster third. Boxer is still using his surviving drop to provide pressure on his opponent while securing his third base. Avenge uses a proxy pylon position to warp in some units on the high ground while preparing to attack the third. The zealots move into the main while the army provides pressure at the front. Boxer is in pretty good position while Avenge throws down some lackluster forcefields. Boxer is using his high medvac count to continue dropping his opponent trying to force a cancel on the third. Boxer’s army is in good position when Avenge pushes out, and from having a faster third is able to push back Avenge. Avenge’s third just finishes when Boxer is in good position and continues his aggressive drops and Avenge manages to snipe one out. Boxer gets in position to take his fourth while avenge sneaks a fourth base as well.

Right now Boxer is ahead in supply and as well as having two starports has begun ghost production. Boxer tends to get ghosts around the same time as his third base. Boxer scouts the hidden fourth but just continues his drops and snipes the robotics bay. Boxer again hits his timing of +2+2 infantry and +1 air. The drops continue and snipe the robo bay as Avenge is beginning to fall apart from the harass.

Both players are positioning in the middle of the map while Boxer is maxed and starts two more command centers and +3+3 infantry +2 air while avenge is only on at +2 armor. Boxer begins a nuke at his ghost facilities. The cloaked ghosts EMP the whole protoss army boxer manages to crush through avenge while launching a nuke for the victory.


Analysis:

+ Show Spoiler +
Boxer again goes for a very cool opening. Unlike the last two games he gets up only two barracks and as a result knows that he will not be able to secure his expansion by floating it down so he just uses it for SCV production and mules. I imagine that versus a non-three gate expand (that is so stalker heavy) a 16 marine with stim drop can shred through a mineral line. This drop also guarantees that protoss will be distracted and allow Boxer to secure his natural and third base very quickly thereafter. Boxer was also very on top of his upgrades this game as well, being sure to hit that timing of the second e-bay, +1 armor, and the armory all completing at the same time.

Boxer’s build also allows for constant drop harass to secure a fourth base and is great at keeping protoss in their main base. It’s almost a guarantee that eventually the drops will work as long they are controlled properly. This is demonstrated by how boxer manages to snipe out the robo bay after attempting to drop it probably 8+ times. Boxer shows the utility in keeping a drop alive even if it can’t return home and has to sit outside his base.

Boxer tends to get ghosts around when he gets his third base and this seems to be a good timing for it. In some of his TSL games he also gets off some great EMPs for the area of effect damage that they have. Ghosts on larger maps with cloak allow for some great harass and map control due to cloak and nukes.

Really Avenge’s problem was just not quite being as solid as Boxer this game, he fell apart to harass and never really felt secure in taking his expansions. This is most evident in him trying to take a hidden fourth rather than the standard fourth base. Boxer was able to get the perfect EMPs allowing him to crush through Avenge’s colossus light army (so colossus light due to the great harassment) without force fields to help.


TL;DR

+ Show Spoiler +
Terran: cool drop opening and keeping up drop pressure all game long, expansion and ghost timings

Protoss: Playing a standard game and the importance of being constantly prepared for terran drops and possibly needing multiple observers for ghosts late game if more Terrans start doing it


Prior analysis:
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Sucker Punch! Some Basic Advice Given in the Context of the Movie
MarineKingPrime.WE vs. oGsMC
EG.Idra vs. TLAF Liquid'Huk
TLAF Liquid'Tyler vs. TLAF Liquid'TLO
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EG.Idra vs. coL.Cruncher
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GSL Finals oGsMC vs. ST_July
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
TypeDBS
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany134 Posts
April 22 2011 23:03 GMT
#2
nice analysis, im very sure SlayerS_MMA did exactly the same BO in his TvP GSL match. it seems this is something the SlayerS terran have been working out together
Grandmaster Terran check out my stream at justin.tv/dbsstarcraft
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
April 22 2011 23:30 GMT
#3
On April 23 2011 08:03 DBS wrote:
nice analysis, im very sure SlayerS_MMA did exactly the same BO in his TvP GSL match. it seems this is something the SlayerS terran have been working out together


It's actually pretty funny, because I was originally going to do MMA. The SlayerS guys all play TvP very similarly, and I think that the aggressive dropping is the way to go.
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
XiGua
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden3085 Posts
April 22 2011 23:45 GMT
#4
I love your analysis of all these games. This is what TL strategy is all about; analysing and [G]-threads.

I was waiting for you to post a new thread, and I wondered why you stopped. But glad you are back from the sickness. Keep on hwaiting!
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) APM, Why u make me spam?
tarath
Profile Joined April 2009
United States377 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-22 23:59:24
April 22 2011 23:55 GMT
#5
What did people think of boxers decision to not get a raven in game 2? I felt like the insane amount of time he let Avenge buy with DTs probably cost him a lot more than just getting a raven out would have.

I play P not T so maybe Ravens just suck more or cost more than I think but I was a bit baffled by how set on skipping mobile detection boxer seemed.

That series also made Templar seem pretty seriously feeble. Avenge did a pretty reasonable job of avoiding EMP, sniping ghosts, keeping his stalkers in front, and warping in templar in advance to build energy but I think if he had gone colossi instead of templar he likely would have won the series.

The fact that vikings can snipe warp prisms so fast from range 9 makes using shuttle micro to avoid emp not an a option which is a shame.
sleigh bells
Profile Joined April 2011
United States358 Posts
April 23 2011 03:11 GMT
#6
On April 23 2011 08:55 tarath wrote:
What did people think of boxers decision to not get a raven in game 2? I felt like the insane amount of time he let Avenge buy with DTs probably cost him a lot more than just getting a raven out would have.

I play P not T so maybe Ravens just suck more or cost more than I think but I was a bit baffled by how set on skipping mobile detection boxer seemed.

That series also made Templar seem pretty seriously feeble. Avenge did a pretty reasonable job of avoiding EMP, sniping ghosts, keeping his stalkers in front, and warping in templar in advance to build energy but I think if he had gone colossi instead of templar he likely would have won the series.

The fact that vikings can snipe warp prisms so fast from range 9 makes using shuttle micro to avoid emp not an a option which is a shame.

ravens do cost more than you think because T's rarely have naked starports, at least less so than naked rax. against collosus you need lots of vikings fast. so the cost is something close to starport + techlab + raven, which is kinda a lot.

at least that's what i think; can't imagine people are just being lazy (like me lol). no one goes for ravens it seems, unless people get banshees and stuff also so it can be of more use.
Sup son? ¯\__(ツ)__/¯
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
April 23 2011 05:01 GMT
#7
On April 23 2011 08:55 tarath wrote:
What did people think of boxers decision to not get a raven in game 2? I felt like the insane amount of time he let Avenge buy with DTs probably cost him a lot more than just getting a raven out would have.

I play P not T so maybe Ravens just suck more or cost more than I think but I was a bit baffled by how set on skipping mobile detection boxer seemed.

That series also made Templar seem pretty seriously feeble. Avenge did a pretty reasonable job of avoiding EMP, sniping ghosts, keeping his stalkers in front, and warping in templar in advance to build energy but I think if he had gone colossi instead of templar he likely would have won the series.

The fact that vikings can snipe warp prisms so fast from range 9 makes using shuttle micro to avoid emp not an a option which is a shame.


Boxer has a very similar ghost timing in each game which probably made him feel like he just didn't need a raven between scans and EMP. Combine this with the fact that he needs all of the gas he get to make those ghosts and the raven was deemed by him to be unnecessary. Boxer's loss that game was kind of a 1a loss, had he gotten the EMPs off I dont think it would have been so one sided as Boxer was doing well on upgrades but was really down on vikings.
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
Piggy
Profile Joined October 2010
United States14 Posts
April 24 2011 03:29 GMT
#8
I really like how Boxer changed up the usual 1 rax fast expand. I really like the super fast third, a Terran on three base is so strong.
When you're good...you're good.
Noxie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2227 Posts
April 24 2011 03:34 GMT
#9
Great analysis but to be honest this play is pretty standard as to the 15 gas from boxer. A ton of guys have started doing that... I have seen 2 reactor 1 tech lab as well instead of the heavy marauder too.
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