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EG.Idra vs. Liquid'Huk MLG Analysis (Part 1)

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
April 05 2011 05:26 GMT
#1
Idra vs. Huk Analysis!

Since there is not enough room in the title, SPOILERS! I'll be posting an analysis of the first two games with replays tonight and the other two with replays hopefully tomorrow but maybe the day after. I think people prefer smaller more detailed analysis, rather than longer less detailed and less timely, but let me know how often you want these, in smaller or larger chunks.

With that being said, what better players to learn PvZ from then two of the best at their respective races? Both of these players are code S (I'll go out a limb and say Idra still performs at that level), and both absolutely deserve it (despite what some fig trees might think). I'd love to see these guys duke it out in Korea, but with the MLG matches, I'll just jump right into the first game.

Game One: Liquid'Huk vs. EG.Idra on Crossfire

+ Show Spoiler +
Idra opens up 15 pool with no gas and sends two drones to harass the probe that will undoubtedly be at the bottom of a Zerg's base ready to build the blocking pylon. Huk manages to get the pylon down and this prompts Idra to grab a later gas than standard. Idra puts two drones in gas, really in no hurry for Zergling speed. Huk meanwhile has one gateway, and is getting his second gas at the standard timing when the core is building, demonstrating either a 3 gate expand or stargate play (generally). Huk does get a stalker out after zealot rather than the more common sentry. Idra gets that later zergling speed but is able to leave the two drones in gas to get an eventual lair. Huk appears to be going for a standard 3 gate expand as Idra begins his lair and a roach warren. Huk also intelligently gets a fast hallucinate, that if you watch his stream or some of his other matches seems to be a staple of his play, and allows him to scout very easily. Huk begins his usual poke across the map with almost pure sentry and Idra manages to punish the poke by picking off a sentry and getting into the protoss main for full scouting information!

Idra begins burrow and tunneling claws, as to be safe against any warp gate all ins as Huk begins chrono boosting +1 attack. Huk gets a very fast robo before adding on any gateways and Idra manages to scout it by sacrificing some zerglings and also begins overlord speed and a third base. Huk begins two more gateways, putting him up to 5 gate one robo, a lot to support off of two base. Idra begins his evo chamber at around the time his third base is finishing, as he alternates between roaches and drones, seemingly pensive about Huk's attack timing

At this point is very apparent that Huk is preparing for a big two base timing push and Idra has an overlord with vision on Huk's whole base. At this point Idra is not making any more drones, but is up 25 on Huk, and is pumping pure units. Huk begins to doubt his attack strength and begins a robotics facility and prepares to take a very late third base, Huk is very far behind at this point. Idra begins a fourth base, his hive, and a spire, as Huk is feeling behind and decides to attempt a push, Idra has very good positioning at this point and uses fungal growth combined with roach burrow movement to nullify forcefields. Idra loses most of his army but is able to crush Huk's force with his reinforcements.

Huk is still unable to get his third due to an annoying overlord spreading creep and seems to be playing from very far behind. Idra does a huge reload on roaches, gets broodlords up, and is able to kill Huk's essential third, forcing a gg.


Analysis:

+ Show Spoiler +
Idra's opening seems interesting, as it is a later pool, and then he tries to kill the probe with two drones early, and if he can't then he gets his gas. What happens 6:20 into the game is very complicated by Idra, he scouts with 3 zerglings at the front to try and see an expansion as the overlord floats in to scout at the same time, the zerglings at the front mean the Huk can't bring everything back to kill the overlord, otherwise an unknown number of lings could stream in the front. After Idra sacks an overlord and sees Huk's composition he decides to get his lair and roach warren simultaneously, while pumping a few more zerglings to pressure the expansion and ensure that it is actually built. I think if you play Zerg you should steal this complex maneuvering, I think had Idra been more indicative of a 4 gate he would have skipped the lair and made more lings while waiting for the roach warren.

Huk's hallucinate timing and usage this game is fantastic, if you are doing a non robo opening as toss, hallucinate is a staple. This is what you are looking for: roach/hydra vs. muta/ling, see if you are getting all inned by a two basing zerg, or if Zerg snuck a third base (this is why Huk always sends the hallucinated phoenixes past every base rather than straight to his opponent's base).

Idra does the perfect punishment for a protoss who likes to do the little poke across the map that Huk does by counter attacking with a small number of zerglings, if you notice a protoss poking like Huk always does, try your best to use counter attacks to scout.

Huk essentially goes for a two base immortal all in, as the third is so late and the colossus are late as well. The game was really over as soon as Huk went into attack and felt forced to turn around, as that was a timing he needed to hit. Idra's late game composition is interesting, roach, infestor, broodlord, and it seemed to perform well.

Although I usually get flamed for saying things like this, especially because I got so much crap about being an Idra fan boy (which I'm really not) Huk's play this game was really lackluster, as he essentially was going for a two base immortal gateway all in, which seemed to be crushed by infestor roach. If I were a zerg I'd tuck how to stop this build into my back pocket. Roach burrow movement to negate FF, and infestor to negate stalker mobility, the two things that make Huk's build order possible at all. If you're having trouble with this all in, you should also check out my Losira analysis, as he stops a similar two base timing.

If anyone has any comments on something special that Huk did this game with his two base all in, please let me know, as I would like to put more about his build, but it really seemed to be unresponsive to his opponent and one dimensional, into a failed recovery.


TL;DR
+ Show Spoiler +
Zerg: How to stop an immortal gateway all in and a good late game army composition
Protoss: Executing the immortal gateway all in.


Game Two: Liquid'Huk vs. EG.Idra

+ Show Spoiler +
I wish I had the replay or at least a VOD! From what I can remember from the cast, it was still very unclear who had that game won, Idra was definitely not out of it when he gg'd but Huk still had a chance because of how desperate Idra was to kill him as he was running low on bases, which can be a real hassle on Metalopolis.


Game Three: Liquid'Huk vs. EG.Idra

+ Show Spoiler +
The match begins with some good old fashioned friendly banter about the last game with Idra's always sunny attitude Huk opens with a gateway while Idra opts again for a 15 pool. When Idra is unable to stop the pylon he again immediately gets his gas, that's what I call a pattern! Idra gets 4 zerglings and a queen just like game one. Huk also opens with the same gas timings as game one. Idra, in very smart and cool fashion, spreads his four zerglings four different ways to scout for proxies before heading for Huk's base. Huk again appears to be going for 3 gate expand, but again gets a stalker first rather than a sentry. Idra begins his roach warren when speed is almost finished for his lings but interestingly delays his lair and pumps some extra zerglings to continue scouting, he seems to delay his lair until he is more sure that he is not getting four warp gated. Idra stockpiles larvae, making sure that Huk has expanded, and then drones up after insuring the expansion is down. Huk adds on a forge and a gateway, a faster fourth gateway than is usual. Huk also gets a very fast third and fourth gas, things are looking fishy Mr. Huk -_-

But then Huk cancels them! Idra is again going roach burrow and tunneling claws before his third, I think that this is in response to seeing the fast fourth warpgate and as demonstrated by game one seems to be a safe opening. Huk gets a fifth warpgate up and is still on only two gas. From 8:30 to the time of the attack Idra makes only drones and is up to 51 on only two base! Huk is hitting a standard 5 warpgate timing with +1 and Idra was doing the perfect "build counter" but seems to have over droned! Idra begins 8 roaches, but at this point it is just too late and Huk has too many units and forces to gg, or, not gg.



Analysis:

+ Show Spoiler +
One thing to note about Huk's opening that many super high level protoss do is continue to chrono boost probes and only throw down the gateway when the spawning pool is thrown down. If you are comfortable that your opponent is not 6 pooling and scout early enough, this is a very useful technique to keep up in probes with Zerg.

A 5 gate with +1 hits at 9:30, remember this timing! Idra simply over droned and missed the time to scout the attack, he even had burrow and burrow movement, the perfect counter, but not enough units in time!

An interesting move by Huk was to cancel the third and fourth gas, this let him get more zealots than is usual with this timing, and also have it hit slightly earlier than is standard. Huk did a timing and it was Idra's job to hold it, this is a standard push by protoss, remember the timing!

Huk did cut probes at 38, so he was behind economically with this attack, and only resumed once the attack was underway, remember that protoss is not invincible, he was cutting probes, and it's okay if you're unsure to not be up 12 drones on your opponent if you're unsure of what is coming.

I'm very interested as to why Huk cancelled his gases and decided to warp gate "all in" though rather than play a standard game.


TL;DR
+ Show Spoiler +
Protoss: Executing the 5 warpgate attack, in an interesting way that is zealot heavy and a little earlier
Zerg: Why you have to be so careful with your droning and active at scouting gateway count, be ready to hold a warp gate push if you don't see any robo units!


In order to keep these coming faster, and because MLG had so many great games and NASL is just around the corner, I will be doing part two soon! Thank you for reading!

Prior Write ups:

TLAF Liquid'Tyler vs. TLAF Liquid'TLO
MLG Dallas Group B Analysis and Predictions
EG.Idra vs. coL.Cruncher
GSTL 2 Finals
IMLosira's Ability to hold all ins as Zerg
GSL Finals Ogs_MC vs. ST_July

Oh, and if you didn't get the fig tree joke, look up what the baby name "Idra" means in Arabic
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
IzieBoy
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-05 08:52:26
April 05 2011 06:55 GMT
#2
i think Huk did get 2 wins off Idra so it's not completely one-sided. The main problem in the first Huk vs Idra game...and i don't take my comment offensively plz... is that huk decided to go for sentries early on (to accumulate energy) and then proceeds to waste it on hallucinations (i guess it's an okay expenditure of extra energy. I'd say waste, because nothing came out of it. He was going to do the same exact thing. What went terribly wrong was his reliance on stalkers. Yea it's an extremely good unit and very spam-reliable, but when up against a specific build such as Idra's which I would like to characterize as the Zerg hp strat, it just wouldn't break it fast enough. I'm not idra, but when I go roach/corruptor it's because I want tanky units. Huk needs to get the hard counter and that is the immortal/sentry build or even better immortal/sentry with mass phoenix Naniwa-style (idra would respond with corruptors immediately but they are rather slow and the phoenix can get rid of the creep-spreading ovies over Huk's expos). I'm sure he could work something out, as there was a game LiquidTyler vs TLO where Tyler used an immortal/sentry build to try to bust what he thought was TLO's siege tank build. (Tyler got countered by 3 port banshee with PDD instead but that's just a fun fact). Also in the critical encounter with the roaches, huk did not have his observer with his stalkers... there was a lot of time to continue hitting the roaches as they traveled under the forcefields. Huk should have backed up his army (taking advantage of at least the mobility of stalkers) and then re-engaged. The forcefields were not only useless, but provided an incentive for Idra to burrow his roach (healing them) with impunity. Huk then crushed that roach force of course, but enough time was lent to Idra to hit back to supply 180 with another roach crew. This time he opted to complete a surround Huk's injured force and win the battle and really the game. From then on, Idra knew his opponent lacked an offense and just went crazy expanding and macroing up with 85 drones (each base saturated at ~2 drones per patch except for the gold which he fully sat.). Huk threw his game away by pressuring the Z too much after a major mistake of allowing roaches to burrow underneath his forcefields. Had he went back to his base and expanded to try and hit 200, the results may be different. It's just not a smart idea to continue an engagement Z on creep with a deshielded and surroundable army.

EDIT: Actually the second game where Huk won was absolutely Idra's strange persistence in not using overseers. Idra threw the game away when he thought Huk's hallucinated void rays were real. I'm quite sure Idra knew they were hallucinated voids, and it was all just for effect.... seriously at least wait and see if your brood lords would die?.. plus is he really that broke he couldn't pump some more corruptors and lings out to do at least a base race? anyways... scaring a player out of a match with hallucination is definitely something everyone tries on easier tourneys, but at MLG? it's kind of funny how bluffs don't work on lower level players and are more and more effective in higher level play. Idra really wasted some energy playing that game if he planned on losing it epically anyways.

I think game three, Huk won decisively with the same build, but this time perfect use of the sentries (cf. game 1 where he sat there and hallucinated phoenix to scout......). Of course Huk's game 3 was slightly aided by Idra mind-gaming himself out of the match as well (i'm pretty sure a person of Idra's caliber could find some good response having 7 sentries with reinforcing zealots and stalkers in his base). The sentries would forcefield out reinforcements and Idra's nat is definitely out. Huk was smart to engage before tunneling claws came into play. Yep, not sure what Idra could do in that position.
Let's Do This! Leeeeeeeeeeeeeroy Jenkins!
P0ckets
Profile Joined January 2011
United States430 Posts
April 05 2011 17:06 GMT
#3
Idra beat himself in the first match up with Huk especially after he gged to hallucination. After he did that and Huk trolled him Idra pretty much lost it due to his epic raging as he is known for. I mean after watching the rematch of Huk v Idra where Idra took 4 matches in a row to win 5-2 overall I think really supports my claim. Idra is a passionate player to say the least and because of this he is very prone to inflicting damage to his own game play and sabotaging his own matches. But at the very least play behind from 1-2, and confidently winning 4 in a row verses Huk is a pretty big accomplishment IMO since they are both GSL S or potentially GSL S quality players.
purecarnagge
Profile Joined August 2010
719 Posts
April 05 2011 18:18 GMT
#4
Idra always dies because he over drones... its quiet sad.
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
April 06 2011 00:24 GMT
#5
On April 06 2011 03:18 purecarnagge wrote:
Idra always dies because he over drones... its quiet sad.


Ya know, I think it is such a tight rope that he walks with it, which is the hallmark of a good Zerg player. But I do think that he good experiment with squeezing out some extra units when he is unsure of what is coming now matter what. He usually makes the right tech choices, but doesn't always enough units.
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
purecarnagge
Profile Joined August 2010
719 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-06 14:11:46
April 06 2011 14:09 GMT
#6
You need some units...yes drone drone drone, but you need units too live to drone.Idra lives past the edge of the clift when it comes to drone vs units.
AGIANTSMURF
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1232 Posts
April 06 2011 17:25 GMT
#7
huk was dead in game 2 no chance of him winning. but then idra quit. lol. that's why it was so funny.
Thats "Grand-Master" SMURF to you.....
trNimitz
Profile Joined October 2010
204 Posts
April 06 2011 19:30 GMT
#8
One thing to note about Huk's opening that many super high level protoss do is continue to chrono boost probes and only throw down the gateway when the spawning pool is thrown down. If you are comfortable that your opponent is not 6 pooling and scout early enough, this is a very useful technique to keep up in probes with Zerg.


Huk did it because Idra is Idra, but it wouldn't work against a zerg player who's willing to be more aggressive; constant ling production would rape your face, one zealot stops 4 maybe 5 lings, not more. And protoss has the best early game drone production anyway actually (until like 20 probes) thanks to chrono-boost.
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