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TLOs Amazing and Unconventional TvP [MLG spoilers]

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
April 04 2011 03:26 GMT
#1
TLAF Liquid’TLO v TLAF Liquid’Tyler Analysis!

Due to the amount of terrans that seem to be having problems with TvP I’m doing an analysis of the unbroadcasted games between teammates TLO and Tyler. TLO offers some creative ways to play the matchup that are nice for those who want to mix up their styles. Tyler has a very distinct robotics with forge style that is very popular, and since TLO 2-0’s him, I was hoping to get some insight into how to demolish your protoss opponent as terran. For that purpose this analysis will be focused on what TLO did right, but may venture into what Tyler did wrong. The replays can be found here: http://s3.majorleaguegaming.com/140-22341.html

Game One: Liquid’TLO vs. Liquid’Tyler

+ Show Spoiler +
The match starts off on scrap station; right away this makes me assume some two bases vs. two bases play, possibly heavy drop harassment by TLO or early attacks due to the large ramp size. Tyler goes for his characteristic zealot sentry zealot out of his first gateway over zealot stalker sentry as is more common. Meanwhile TLO is doing a 1-1-1, but with one gas! He is building a hellion out of the factory and just keeps adding on hellions, still on one base. Tyler is doing his normal 3 gate robo expand, which if you watched his stream tends to be his standard vs. Terran.

TLO begins a medevac, abusing the fact the tyler’s early game relies on “cutsie defense” that is sentry heavy. Marines are dropped in Tyler's mineral line as hellions drive up the ramp and get a perfect angle on Tyler’s sentries. TLO also brought in an SCV to begin a bunker in Tyler’s base and Tyler simply doesn’t have enough to hold the pressure without forcefields. The medevac heals the SCV repairing the bunker allowing just two marines to survive a ridiculously long time. TLO is now up nearly 10 probes and is preparing for another push. In the meantime TLO has added on 3 more barracks, expanded, and grabbed his second gas. TLO gets two reactors – interestingly preparing to go marine heavy as Tyler feels too far behind and begins a poke at the front. But in the meantime TLO hits with a huge counter hellion drop roasting nearly all of Tyler’s probes! Now that TLO has killed his opponents entire economy, he can pull all of his SCVs to easily crush Tyler’s counter push and force the gg from Tyler.


Analysis:

+ Show Spoiler +
Tyler’s cyber core positioning seems dubious and I wouldn’t generally recommend it due to how easily it can be picked off by drops. I’m really surprised that Tyler puts it there, he is the kind of player that analyzes where every building will be put, and I can’t see the benefit of putting it there. Maybe it is to make it less vulnerable to early stim timings up the big ramp, but I am unsure. TLO’s hellion scout is becoming more and more popular in TvP because it generally allows you to see Protoss’ chosen tech path, If you open 1-1-1 against protoss you should get a hellion to scout, but TLO is doing something much more interesting.

I am not sure if this would have worked against a Protoss other than Tyler and seems to be a build order type of loss. Tyler cuts corners with his 3 gate robo expand, using sentries as his crutch. As experience from watching some of his stream shows me, his build is extremely calculated down to the last forcefield (down to the point where the lag to Korea was enough to make his build fail occasionally). This is the risk of pushing your build to the limit, that you can get hit with something unexpected at the tournament stage. TLO brilliantly abused that Tyler goes so sentry heavy early game and I wouldn’t be surprised if Tyler has to change his whole opening to get around this drop that TLO has timed out.

Now I’m not entirely sure how TLO’s build does against non sentry heavy openings, as some protoss’ prefer going Zealot stalker heavy, but if you scout a fast double gas you might want to save energy on your orbital and scan at 6:10 to see if your opponent is focusing heavy sentry before you do the attack. Nonetheless, this is a convincing 1-1-1 opening against protoss that you might want to try out because of how much toss is loving sentries these days. What is so important to note is that he stays on one gas the whole time as 90% of 1-1-1 get a second gas.


TL;DR:

+ Show Spoiler +
Terran: A creative 1-1-1 variation to punish Protoss relying on sentries
Protoss: if this becomes more popular why not to rely on sentry heavy openings v T


Theorycraft on how Tyler could have won:

+ Show Spoiler +
This one is very difficult to decipher in terms of how Tyler could have won as his whole build relies on getting the most for his money and holding with as few units (read sentries) as possible. With better forcefields, it is possible that Tyler may have held this, but it is very difficult to be sure, it was just a very smart build by TLO.


Game Two: Liquid’TLO vs. Liquid’Tyler

+ Show Spoiler +
Tyler again grabs both of his gases while TLO again 1-1-1’s with one gas. At this point both players seem to be doing the same builds as last game, but due to the map (xel'naga caverns) it will be much harder for TLO to drop successfully. TLO opts for fast siege tanks and a reactor barracks. Tyler opts for an immortal before colossus, indicating either possible aggression or a reaction to the siege tanks of TLO. TLO is getting a good mix of hellions and tanks, constantly making marines, a raven, and a fast 3rd. TLO adds on two starports and begins banshee production. Tyler takes some huge damage from blue flame hellions, but is not too far behind in probes. The hellion drop combined with spotting TLO's 3rd prompts Tyler to attack. TLO is going for 4 port banshee, using tanks to turtle. The stalker try to blink on the tanks but end up taking huge damage, as the banshees continue to rain down on the immortals, forcing a gg from Tyler.


Analysis:

+ Show Spoiler +
Both of these games are absolutely insane because TLO straight up kills Tyler, not using any gimmicks, and with Tyler only doing standard build responses. The raven forces Tyler not to be able to scout the 4 port banshees or the fast 3rd base, and I can’t help but feel like this build from TLO crushes Protoss robo play easily. Maybe the secret that was missing from TvP mech style was the banshee. This is another great build for you to try out from TLO. I have no idea how it works on other builds besides Tyler's, but Tyler was doing the typical response to mech and got rolled by it.


TL;DR

+ Show Spoiler +
Terran – another creative build that seems to crush robo play from Tyler
Protoss – the danger of robo builds against a potential meching terran style.


Theorycraft on how Tyler could have won:

+ Show Spoiler +
I’m thinking that stargate might be the best possible response to terran mech play rather than immortal stalker zealot. Phoenixes would have been fantastic in the battle, but it is completely understandable that this would not be Tyler’s normal reaction just to give him credit. Tyler also didn’t spot the fast third and so was kind of forced to all in, the raven does such a nice job denying scouting that it puts Tyler in a weird position, as you generally want to use mobility to out expand the mech player, but that is difficult when scouting is denied..


Links to my other write ups:

Idra vs. Cruncher TSL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206173
GSTL finals http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205969
IMLosira http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=204274
GSL finals http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=203120

All responses are welcomed, even if you only have feedback as simple as "I liked it" or "I didn't." Please don't preface responses with useless flames as well ^_^ thank you for reading!
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
Ghoststrikes
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada1356 Posts
April 04 2011 03:35 GMT
#2
I love your write ups! Keep up the good work
Never say die
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
April 04 2011 03:37 GMT
#3
The sky terran build/strat isn't new or innovative, it's just highly underused and still very strong. It transitions into BCS very good, especially this patch. People still refuse to do it much though or go back to it.

The hellion drop...nothing out of the norm either I would say. TLO is a good player, but people over-hype him up way too much (imo). What he does do really good though imo, is find builds that other people randomly decided were "obsolete" and then crushes people with them because they don't expect it and he knows the execution and follow-up unit compositions that the opponent is unfamiliar with.

Lots of protoss have entirely forgotten or discarded early hellion drops + sky terran out of their minds, so i'm sure he took liquid`tyler a little bit by surprise.
Sup
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
April 04 2011 03:40 GMT
#4
On April 04 2011 12:37 avilo wrote:
The sky terran build/strat isn't new or innovative, it's just highly underused and still very strong. It transitions into BCS very good, especially this patch. People still refuse to do it much though or go back to it.

The hellion drop...nothing out of the norm either I would say. TLO is a good player, but people over-hype him up way too much (imo). What he does do really good though imo, is find builds that other people randomly decided were "obsolete" and then crushes people with them because they don't expect it and he knows the execution and follow-up unit compositions that the opponent is unfamiliar with.

Lots of protoss have entirely forgotten or discarded early hellion drops + sky terran out of their minds, so i'm sure he took liquid`tyler a little bit by surprise.


I'm sorry I sounded too excited about it, it's just so rare to see it in tournament play. People tend to get angry when i get excited about a player and what they're doing, I'll keep that in mind in the future, thank you for your response
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
April 04 2011 03:43 GMT
#5
Nice write up
Hellion drops into banshee play is def underused (and im glad for it), which is a mystery as it is ridiculously strong).
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
thesmoosh
Profile Joined September 2010
113 Posts
April 04 2011 03:47 GMT
#6
The first game was pretty standard. I've seen that exactly build with marine drop + hellions at entrance used a few times in GSL on that map even, against both T and P. The SCV was a nice tough, and that game ended up being super-close. Those two marines could have easily died before the bunker finished and it would have been very different.

The second game did intrigue me quite a bit. I mean I watched the main battle 5 times on the replay and Tyler's army simply disappeared. It was obviously a mistake to engage there and the blink was disastrous, but I simply did not expect tyler's army to evaporate so quickly. Those 5 banshees + the marines + the tanks did ridiculous damage.

I've done 2 port banshee builds with marine hellion but this seemed more versatile. I'm sure it's vulnerable to some early pushes, so I'll have to play around with it a bit to know for sure, but I really like banshees against portoss. I feel like it's the saving grace of terran at the moment in that matchup, and it transitions well to BCs.
Zyban
Profile Joined October 2010
United States54 Posts
April 04 2011 03:53 GMT
#7
great writeups! keep up the good work.
Proud member of the swarm since '09
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
April 04 2011 03:58 GMT
#8
TLO read Synystyr's thread and decided to make it more famous
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
Techno
Profile Joined June 2010
1900 Posts
April 04 2011 04:04 GMT
#9
Awesome write up. TLO is one of the best players in the world. He is so dynamic.
Hell, its awesome to LOSE to nukes!
nat
Profile Joined September 2010
216 Posts
April 04 2011 04:08 GMT
#10
1-1-1 is just very vulnerable to toss 1 base timing pushes. ie 3 gate voidray, 3 gate imortal, 4 gate if not scouted, or 3 gate collosus if no tanks. It works in tournament play because not many protoss does theses strat. But in ladder, even in high masters, I always encounter them and u just lose with nothing to defend (playing as T)
Basileus
Profile Joined October 2010
United States103 Posts
April 04 2011 04:10 GMT
#11
I think in the second game, tyler killed the expo, but I think he could have stopped attacking there and I don't know why he stopped making probes. He didn't really lose any units and TLO had a very nice tank setup with all those banshees. Granted Tyler probably didn't know about all those banshees and might have thought he could just go and kill him but I think that he certainly made some mistakes in his attack (no forward plyon, getting real immortals stuck behind the fake ones, army really clumped up).

I think if Tyler stopped his attack and scouted the banshees he could have easily thrown up a star port and make phoenix to win.

I think banshees are risky. They can do a ton of damage, but if he gets even a small number of phoenix then they are going to be in trouble.

[Tyler is really good and this was just an off tournament I think for him, and my criticism here is in all due respect]
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-04 04:25:03
April 04 2011 04:23 GMT
#12
Thank you all so much for all of your feedback ^_^

In response to nat, You notice in game one, TLO gets a viking right after the medevac, I have a feeling that this was due to the possible weakness of Void ray all ins.

And @Basileus, I think that was part of the genius of TLO's build, the raven makes it damn hard for protoss to scout. And in fairness to Tyler I love his style and think it is amazing, he seems like the kind of player that "checks things off" that his build loses to, which it makes TLO a very difficult opponent.
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
Lurk
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany359 Posts
April 04 2011 08:14 GMT
#13
I do a similar style, doing a 1/1/1 hellion drop into banshees expand and i really like it. It's surprisingly safe vs early protoss pressure (if you bunker your front - which you should). I always get a quick tank after the hellions to help with 4gates which can be a bit tricky sometimes.

However i find that most protoss are surprisingly unprepared for hellion drops/harass and you can almost always do terrible damage AND escape with your hellions. Good FF micro can be a problem though (if he traps your hellions in the mineral patches).

Phoenix openings, however, are quite a problem. They pretty much shut down drop play and banshees completely and you have to get vikings instead. The good thing is that you can get a lot of marines if he gets phoenix as it will take considerable time until he gets collossi out.

4port banshee is incredible risky though, as 2stargate phoenix will slaughter you if he manages to scout you.
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10318 Posts
April 04 2011 08:19 GMT
#14
Thanks for the summaries, but for the sake of the community, i'd like to bring up the improper use of "gimmick" again, as is used here...

a gimmick is something that is NOT (quite) useful; if it is useful, then it's not a gimmick

aka, you basically said TLO won straight up (standard) without using gimmicks (being flashy), but I'm sure what you mean is that TLO played standard and didn't rely on surprises
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-04 09:56:13
April 04 2011 09:55 GMT
#15
In game two Tyler just did something really stupid. He broke the Artosis rule: When you get ahead you should just get more ahead! He killed a command centre and fucked up his economy plans. So what does he do? Does he try and solidify his lead, or at least try and get one by taking some expansions of his own? No! He just attacks into a really thick defensive line in a tight choke, his unit control is all fumbled and he gets massacred.

Really, Tyler just did a bad play in a situation he was unsure about what to do, partly because TLO denied scouting really hard and also because TLO is just an unusual player who can do shit which can easily exploit a player who you know plays really standard and solid and conservative.
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
Leargle
Profile Joined October 2010
United States173 Posts
April 04 2011 10:09 GMT
#16
Great analysis. I think Tyler got majorly metagamed by TLO. As nat stated, his build was very vulnerable to 1 base timings, but TLO took a calculated risk, and counted on Tyler sticking to his standard play.
Maphack supply depot overlord
SC Trickster
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark100 Posts
April 04 2011 11:18 GMT
#17
Game 2 is just has the weirdest ending. Tyler seems to decide that he wants to throw the game, I can't think of a different explanation for stockpiling that many resources and attacking the way he did. When tyler blinked his stalker in front of the immortals I goddamn near facepalmed irl.
Synystyr
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1446 Posts
April 04 2011 11:24 GMT
#18
On April 04 2011 12:58 FinestHour wrote:
TLO read Synystyr's thread and decided to make it more famous


!!!!!!

This makes me so happy. Words can't describe =]

His style of course was much different, but the end goal was the same. I've been trying to figure out how to open with hellions, and this seems amazing. Can't wait to get my hands on these replays!

Sky Terran is so powerful. Definitely something Terrans need to take a look at for their arsenal against Protoss.
Sky Terran TvP V2.0: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355839
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
April 04 2011 11:26 GMT
#19
Phoenix openings hardcounter those builds pretty hard. I think that doing a 1-1-1 build a large percentage of the time is dangerous because of this.
www.infinityseven.net
Lurk
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany359 Posts
April 04 2011 12:03 GMT
#20
On April 04 2011 20:26 PJA wrote:Phoenix openings hardcounter those builds pretty hard. I think that doing a 1-1-1 build a large percentage of the time is dangerous because of this.


There are a lot of transitions from 1/1/1 and not all of those are bad vs phoenix. You just can't transition straight into mass banshee when your protoss opponent builds phoenix.

Viking/Tank/Marine is a pretty potent counter to phoenix/gateway for example (also to voidray/gateway).

You just need to make sure to adept to what your opponent is doing, expand in time and punish him for doing a fast expand (if he did) with a timing attack.
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