|
On April 04 2011 20:26 PJA wrote:
Phoenix openings hardcounter those builds pretty hard. I think that doing a 1-1-1 build a large percentage of the time is dangerous because of this.
If you're talking about the 4 port, not necessarily. You end up with huge amounts of marines and can respond by pausing at 2 ports and throwing out a few Thors before going for BC (which isn't even necessary). I mean, if you're building obs and phoenix, that's going to cut your Col or WG unit count.
The main issue is that Ports are not as flexible as factory or barracks so you're kinda playing on rails and can't respond or adapt if the game goes away from the game you think you are going to play. I think that's ultimately why you don't see it in high level play as much. People like to try and control flow too much to just FE, sit in your base, and build mass air for a mech like timing push...
|
After theorycrafting over night and reading some replies, do you think TLO's game 2 is solid enough to induce stargate openings from Protoss? Imagine how that could change the entire matchup.
|
I love how you have a spoiler tag, when the title of the thread in itself is a spoiler
hahaah
|
On April 05 2011 02:17 Hambone636 wrote:
I love how you have a spoiler tag, when the title of the thread in itself is a spoiler
hahaah
Because obviously TLO only played one TvP at the whole tournament and people know who I'm talking about. -_-
|
TLO did the 1-1-1 against socke on Shattered Temple, starting with a very fast non-BF hellion drop. Socke put pressure on TLO at the start, and saw it coming, but lost his units in TLO's base in exchange for 1 medivac and 1 hellion (not that great of a trade to start). Another medivac popped out, thought, and got the hellions into socke's base and kill about 6-7 probes. Socke's expansion just came up, though, so he wasn't too far out of it. What did the real damage was a banshee follow up, keeping socke in his base for even longer. Eventually an obs got into TLO's base and saw a raven and eventually a small clump of banshees and vikings. Socke quickly threw down 2 stargate to start getting phoenixes out fast. Right when he got about 12 of them out, and had just put down his 3rd nexus, TLO showed up at his front door, while a small pack of reapers were trying to deny the 3rd, pulling the stalkers and 2 collosi away from the natural. To Socke's surprise, 3 seeker missiles popped out and killed off all 12 phoenix. A small pack of bio followed up the poke from the air units and socke was forced to GG.
Given the fact that they were close air on shattered temple made this type of strategy amplified in usefulness. The large air focus makes the battlefield smaller for terran and easier to manage, while protoss is usually stuck parrying the terran for most of the early and mid game. Socke did a fairly decent job holding off most of the aggression and scouting it quite well. TLO had great execution with it, and the finishing touch of the seeker missile god rid of the major threat when the attack came. For those of you who will say "seeker missile should never kill phoenix, they are too fast"; he had to get close to the banshees to kill them, and had right clicked to get in range, causing them to clump quite badly. Given the fact that most terran use PDD to protect their air units, he was most likely not expecting the missiles to pop out. The phoenix being in such close proximity to the ravens provided little to no reaction time.
It was a great harassment strategy by TLO, and a great choice given the map and positions, which were the two major contributors to its success. This match was played in the 5th/6th place loser's quarterfinals on Sunday.
|
On April 04 2011 20:26 PJA wrote:
Phoenix openings hardcounter those builds pretty hard. I think that doing a 1-1-1 build a large percentage of the time is dangerous because of this.
The thing is, beyond a few void ray timings there really aren't a lot of stargate openers that work well against terran. Hellion drops, especially when followed up by banshees, are scary as hell against most standard protoss openings. Not having seen the replay myself it sounds like there needed to be more stalkers if Tyler was going to keep pace with all the incoming harass. Scrap is also a fantastic map for hellions in general, between the huge open space behind the mineral line, the doublewide ramp, and short air distance for drops. Coupled with the fact that void openings really only work well against a terran that walls off the main, which rarely happens especially on a map like this, stargate isn't the obvious choice for Scrap Station at all.
I think it's possible to deal with this playing standard, but it's significantly harder given the map. A one gas 1-1-1 opening sounds pretty indicative of a hellion drop, at least initially, so I'm left wondering when it got scouted.
|
On April 05 2011 03:43 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 20:26 PJA wrote:
Phoenix openings hardcounter those builds pretty hard. I think that doing a 1-1-1 build a large percentage of the time is dangerous because of this. The thing is, beyond a few void ray timings there really aren't a lot of stargate openers that work well against terran. Hellion drops, especially when followed up by banshees, are scary as hell against most standard protoss openings. Not having seen the replay myself it sounds like there needed to be more stalkers if Tyler was going to keep pace with all the incoming harass. Scrap is also a fantastic map for hellions in general, between the huge open space behind the mineral line, the doublewide ramp, and short air distance for drops. Coupled with the fact that void openings really only work well against a terran that walls off the main, which rarely happens especially on a map like this, stargate isn't the obvious choice for Scrap Station at all. I think it's possible to deal with this playing standard, but it's significantly harder given the map. A one gas 1-1-1 opening sounds pretty indicative of a hellion drop, at least initially, so I'm left wondering when it got scouted.
jinro lost last GSL to a proxy phoenix opener that looks super effective. one of the few times i've seen a player completely fall apart due to harass. IIRC, idle scvs and half completed buildings everywhere. it was hard to watch. i think jinro simply didn't have enough marines to shoo them away.
|
On April 05 2011 03:54 underdawg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 03:43 Offhand wrote:On April 04 2011 20:26 PJA wrote:
Phoenix openings hardcounter those builds pretty hard. I think that doing a 1-1-1 build a large percentage of the time is dangerous because of this. The thing is, beyond a few void ray timings there really aren't a lot of stargate openers that work well against terran. Hellion drops, especially when followed up by banshees, are scary as hell against most standard protoss openings. Not having seen the replay myself it sounds like there needed to be more stalkers if Tyler was going to keep pace with all the incoming harass. Scrap is also a fantastic map for hellions in general, between the huge open space behind the mineral line, the doublewide ramp, and short air distance for drops. Coupled with the fact that void openings really only work well against a terran that walls off the main, which rarely happens especially on a map like this, stargate isn't the obvious choice for Scrap Station at all. I think it's possible to deal with this playing standard, but it's significantly harder given the map. A one gas 1-1-1 opening sounds pretty indicative of a hellion drop, at least initially, so I'm left wondering when it got scouted. jinro lost last GSL to a proxy phoenix opener that looks super effective. one of the few times i've seen a player completely fall apart due to harass. IIRC, idle scvs and half completed buildings everywhere. it was hard to watch. i think jinro simply didn't have enough marines to shoo them away.
I feel like this is relevant, as this was a game where someone did a Proxy Stargate Phoenix opener against me and I beat it all the while going 4 starports for mass Airplay.
http://www.mediafire.com/?t6waq1w2y860gpl
|
All my thoughts about the two games have already been stated by others, but I'd just like to say THANK YOU to the OP for making these sorts of threads. It's these kinds of strategical analysis discussions that I wish would dominate the SC2 community, rather than balance discussions.
|
ok i just rewatched the jinro game, my mind greatly exaggerated how effective those phoenixes were. but no denying that they were indeed still effective. phoenixes are so cool lol, constant scouting, supremely annoying, and they attack automatically!
|
On April 04 2011 20:26 PJA wrote:
Phoenix openings hardcounter those builds pretty hard. I think that doing a 1-1-1 build a large percentage of the time is dangerous because of this.
I desperately want to know though, does this build work against all robo builds? Because 90% of players open robo if they're aiming for a macro game.
|
Not to knock Tyler or anything but I think he should have spent a little time to micro down that SCV in the first game before it completed the bunker. Sure, it would give the marines free shots for a couple seconds but its better than having that bunker in his base for a solid minute or two. I understand he had to deal with everything at once so it is hard to think clearly as to what to target first, marines, hellions or medivac?
Game 2 I think he definitely played that last part terribad. It was a bad engagement spot and a bad idea to blink all of his stalkers straight into the small little choke instead of going around while the immortals soaked up all those tank shells. It seemed unnecessary to try and win at that point. I like Tyler and I think he has a very cerebral approach to the game but I think that the harasses threw him off his stride and game plan which (especially after playing so many games in such high pressure situations for 3 days) caused bad decision making.
I'm not saying that TLO's plan wasn't brilliant or well executed, I just think that it can be held.
And does anybody else think that Templar play would work fairly well against heavy air play? HTs can feedback Raven, Banshees, Medivacs and BCs and not to mention since you aren't going air yourself, he wouldn't even both with Vikings so you basically have rendered most of his army useless and you don't even need storm or the amulet to do it. Then the Archons that come afterward can do terrible damage to whatever bio army his has left....
Hmm, I think I've thought of a counter haha.
|
Yeah, I'm not convinced that what TLO did here is really that great...
The drop + hellion in g1 was cute, but if tyler either thwarts the drop or blocks the hellions, it fails. He tried to half stop both and got caught totally off guard. Additionally, he lost a ton of probes to the entirely preventable bunker. I also think that cancelling the expo might have been a bit premature (would have to test) -- if you hold a marine/hellion push, you're way ahead; being ahead without the expo up would be kinda lame.
In g2, he was honestly perfectly fine. He lost a few probes to hellions, but killing TLO's third was big. Tyler could have easily just contained + expanded at that point and been at least even; instead he did a terrible push where he hallucinated immortals but then suicided his stalkers.
|
it was beautiful play imo... he knew Tyler thought he was going siege tech... so he just went banshees. i think he scanned for a stargate in Tyler's base before the fight.... so even if Tyler didn't attack and lose, i'm sure TLO would have acted fast, before he gets countered and needs to tech to BC. But the risky expanding and stuff were all pretty important lead-up to a mass BC strat. which recently is so much hotter with the chatup by Synystyr and the BC speed upgrade.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
