Zerg Thoughts on 1v1 Ladder Map Pool

Quanticfograw

United States2053 Posts

March 04 2011 02:04 GMT

Zerg Thoughts on 1v1 Ladder Map Pool

By: SpoR
February, 28th 2011

These are my initial thoughts on the current 7 ladder maps. Imbalances, questionable features, concerns, and general map creation issues. I tried to test everything I could think of (as far as major zerg concerns) but I may have overlooked some things, so please mention things you know of to add or argue against so it can be addressed and changed in the OP. I'll write a short paragraph about each map and then list some positive (+), negative (-), and neutral/undecided(=) changes. Also note, I haven't done any real playtesting with good players, I've just done preliminary unit/position testing for a few hours and I already have a good grasp of how a typical zerg will progress on any given map vs all races and possible spawn positions. I do not believe I am skilled or knowledgeable enough to speak on behalf of TvT, TvP, or PvP. So while information may be added to the op pertaining to those MU, I won't go into detail about it. Also, this is not another Zerg QQ thread, I think overall the changes and new maps are good (step up from what we had before at least) it's just me giving my feedback on current ladder map pool in hopes for improvement in the future, and to help fellow zerg players understand the maps and quirks a bit more in detail.

DQ(Delta Quadrant)

Recommended: Definite Thumbs Down

Still bad, This map has potential if they just reworked it. Too many Drocks, enough with them already. Just because its a gold base doesn't mean it needs to be hard to secure if the map is even (some could argue about MULEs but whatever). The short path distance on close spawns just needs to be stretched out a little (There is plenty of space around the whole island of the map to stretch every direction). The backdoor base is anti zerg, because zerg generally don't want to take it til late game and for P/T it's almost a free base. The Cliff above makes it even more of a hassle. Then the nats are just so wide open and the ramp is closer in certain positions and harder to cover with ooze/structures. The backdoor pylon thing still exists. 66% of the time you spawn too close to the opponent. This map is still not good enough for high level play.

Current Updates & Concerns:

-Pathing from 7 to 5 takes longer route for some reason.
=Backdoor cliffs moved back a little.
-Every base (besides mains) has cliff/gap to range from.
-Backdoor pylon.
-Backdoor 3rds T/P favored.
-66% chance of close spawns/short rush distance.
-Too many Drocks.
-Wide open semi-far nat.
+Lots of bases.
+Good options for 3rd/4th base.
+Decent overlord placements.
+Satisfactory amount of space and paths around the map.

PICS/STATS:
+ Show Spoiler +

Mains

Nats
No nat pics, because the program was using the backdoor bases :C Sorry

SS(Scrap Station)

Recommended: Thumbs Up

This map is OK for Z. I have mixed feelings about it because the distance from main to nat and just general space around those bases and the wide ramp are detrimental. Like Artosis has said on a few occasions, the map is good for Z because of the long distance but the actual map architecture is very tight and narrow and the bases progress towards each other linearly which favors T or P as the game goes on. The gold and island are generally pretty hard to secure as Z unless you are already winning (can't recall a game where a strat revolved around them). The map has definitely gotten better and better since beta though. It used to be outright terrible for Z.

Current Updates & Concerns:

+Fixed main on right side. Equal placement to ramp, needs same amount of tumors to spread ooze (1 gets you down).
=Both spawn locations moved slightly which removed the ability for the pseudo Z wall at Left, but now equal with Right (bad for ZvZ imo).
=Added LoS around XWT and outside nats. Moved XWT a bit and balanced a bit of terrain at LoS spots.
=Moved right side Drocks and ramp forward a bit, slid Drocks on left over a bit, now equal.
=Various minor terrain edge/cliff balancing.
-Lots of wasted air space around the map. Could use more pathing/bases.
-Long tumor spread distance (main to nat especially)
-Wide Ramp (most specifically detrimental to ZvZ).
=Far nat, distance and tightness counteracts it though.
=Short air distance.
=3rd base is closer to opponent. (Not so bad though because you can open middle path)
+Adequate space around the map.
+Long Rush Distance.
+Sufficient overlord placement locations.

PICS/STATS:
+ Show Spoiler +

Mains

Nats

M(Metalopolis)

Recommended: Thumbs Up

The map everyone thinks is the best. Well it's actually a crap shoot. Reasons being the 3 different spawn positions you can get: diagonal, close air, and close ground. The latter being generally pretty annoying and bad for Z. Not only is the rush distance smaller, but your nat is pretty wide open and there happens to be a ramp for pushes to start on above the nat. The gold bases are basically unusable for Z, especially worse since either XWT by itself can see both bases and the small space up there is perfect for tanks and colossus (which doesn't even matter because they can just tank from across the other gold base), It's just bad design. Just like DQ this map could use some stretching, possibly remove some of the ramps from center, etc. There is lots of wasted air space around the 11 and 4 corners. Another reason why close positions suck is that (assuming you survive early strategies and make it to mid/late game) the 3rd base is shared. The other thing that bugs me about the map is just the asymmetry of the mains/nats. There is a spot where an overlord can hide at 12 nat but no other bases. And just the space behind nats/mains minerals is weird so it's hard to sim city on your ooze around your mins to efficiently pre-defend for harass. I'd like it if there were more safe positions for overlords to chill on the map as well. Overall the map plays OK though and 66% of possible spawning positions being good enough, is favorable enough for Z.

Current Updates & Concerns:

=Added LoS around backdoor drop spots.
=Fixed the corner of the high ground near the ramp at 3 main.
-33% chance of close rush distance.
-3rd base dilemma in close position.
-Impossible gold bases.
-Wide open nats.
-Difficult overlord placement.
=Various minor positional discrepancies.
=33% chance for close air spawn.
+33% chance for far positions.
+Easy 3rd/4th bases (assuming not close spawns).
+Multiple routes around the map.
+Lots of flanking room.
+No Drocks!

PICS/STATS:
+ Show Spoiler +

Mains

Nats

XNC(Xel'Naga Caverns)

Recommended: Definite Thumbs Up

Many zergs probably hate this map mainly because of ZvP (blink stalkers and 4gate builds), but I think it's possibly the best map for ZvT/ZvZ in the pool except for the fact that the nat is somewhat far away from the ramp and pretty wide open for harass. This is probably my favorite map (other than Shakuras Plateau) that Blizz has had in the ladder. The distance is pretty good, the bases are all pretty well spaced out and the map doesn't have a set expand path like SS or some other maps. The map has chokes and there are just as many open areas as well as plenty of pretty safe places for overlords that the XWTs can't cover. This is not to say the map can not be improved on though. 3,5,9,11 seem like a waste of map space (throw some bases in) and things could probably be stretched out a little to accommodate it all. This map seems really safe to take a 3rd base in either position and if you are solid enough to stop harass you can do pretty well in the macro/late game.

Current Updates & Concerns:

+Removed annoying doodad from southern side of middle pit that messed with scout AI pathing.
-Very wide nat, far from ramp as well.
-Back route into nat.
-Gold base is generally T/P favored. Z usually takes the low ground as 3rd.
-Rushes and Timing attacks are pretty favorable on this map.
+Lots of space and routes for movement.
+Fairly comfortable base layout.
+Long rush distance.
+Close 3rd.

PICS/STATS:
+ Show Spoiler +

Couldn't find a pic/copy of old version of XNC to make an animated gif. ):
Mains & Nats
[image loading]

BG(Backwater Gulch)

Recommended: Definite Thumbs Down

This is probably one of the worst if not the worst map ever in the ladder for Z imho. I mean Kulas Ravine, Incineration Zone, and SoW are all pretty bad but this map just hates zerg on almost every possible level. Some of the rush distances are closer, the nats are horrible. The 3rds and 4ths are crammed next to these horribly placed platforms where T and P can just defend or attack ridiculously efficiently (colossus walking up and down with FF on the ramps, tanks, blink stalkers, reapers etc.). On top of all that there are all these backdoor paths and rocks to force you to defend your expansions from every direction (even air looping around from back). And then the middle gold bases suffer the exact same problem as the the golds on Metal, where zerg basically can't ever expand there, and either XWT covers both golds (I don't know why Blizzard made this mistake more than once). It also takes 2-3 tumors to barely connect main to nat ooze and another couple to reach the main big ramp. If you expand to open spawning position's 3rd base, the main now serves as a cliff drop area across a very small gap (doodads are positionally imba as well). If you spawn close positions, terran can take his 3rd base on your 3rd with a Pfort and tanks on the death pedestal etc. Seems like it could be very difficult. The only good things this map has going for it, is that the middle is pretty spacious and there are plenty of bases all over the place.

Current Updates & Concerns:

-Close spawns, very short rush distances.
-Mostly tight & winding paths, and a generally small map.
-Super far nat. Wide nat entrance which doesn't cover main as well.
-2 back door openings to nat.
-T/P favored small high ground positions outside 3rd/4th bases.
-Nat that can be tanked from below Drocks.
+Decent overlord placements.
+Very snug nat base.

PICS/STATS:
+ Show Spoiler +

Mains

Nats

SP(Slag Pits)

Recommended: Big Thumbs Down

The things make this map ridiculous are the low base count, useless Drocked gold base in the shared positions, plain and odd terrain features, and most importantly the range abuse from; the middle platforms, outside MAIN base (hit hatch, or minerals, or just gas), or the gold low ground (to hit main's min/gas). At first glance this map design just looks weak and plain, like it was created in a rush. Very poor use of the space around the edges of the map (could probably slap a few bases in there actually). It's really small with very close rush distances, and pretty wide nats with backdoor opening that has the same issues as the other maps just like this, only the opponent will almost never open these rocks unless to abuse or just drop units behind because the normal path is shorter anyways. Spawning close rush positions 1/3 of the time is pretty bad (it's closer than Metal and SoW). Spawning shared gold favors T/P because the main hatch can pushed down 1 lane (without much room to flank) and just open shop on your main hatch and resources. Diagonal positions are best obviously but it still doesn't nullify the threat of the previously mentioned. Small mains are generally good for Z because there is less to watch for drops, you have less structures, and ooze covers faster. If you don't spawn close positions you have satisfactory 3rd base choices. I really have no idea what blizzard was thinking when they made this map. At first I thought this map was debatable, but it's almost as bad as BG just because the threat from ranged units into your main is so high and the short rush distance is so short.

Current Updates & Concerns:

-Low base count.
-Semi-open nat.
-Back door Drocks into nat.
-Wasted map airspace around corners/edges of the map.
-Tanks/Colossus can siege just about everywhere, INCLUDING MAINS WTF (this alone ruins this map).
-33% of the time unusable gold base in shared spawn positions
-33% of the time close spawn rush distance. Made even worse by shared Drocks.
-Small map, has some open space in mid but you will never really use it unless diagonal spawn. XWT not important for same reason.
-Below average overlord placements.
+Small main is good for Z.
+Close nat.
+66% of the time diagonal or shared gold positions have decent expansion lineage.

PICS/STATS:
+ Show Spoiler +

Mains

Nats

TST(The Shattered Temple)

Recommended: Reluctant Thumbs Up for now

Another new map that at first glance looks great. After all it's basically just an update to The Lost Temple removing the islands (now Drocked), removing cliffs, widening the center areas, and moving the XWT and center platforms a bit (creating more open ground in the middle). The key problems with this map are akin to Metalopolis. The 33% chance of spawning close which not only is very fast rush distance, but the fact that it makes your 3rd expansion in impossible to hold location or really far away. I think the Drocked bases may end up being problematic for abuse (terran taking 3rd base there with pfort and slow pushing down). Because of this fact it will basically force Z to kill their rocks asap to prevent this, opening up a narrow and raised alternate path to your base which is definitely not where zerg ever wants their units to be or fight. Basically, I think this map is the lesser of 4 evils. It just seems that it will play like a combination of Metalopolis and Kulas Ravine (which is bad obviously and a bad variance in maps to begin with).

Current Updates & Concerns:

-Close spawns, very short rush distances.
-Drocked pseudo island base. Narrow path is T/P favored.
-Tankable golds from drocked bases.
=Nat is not as tight as in LT, but there is more maneuvering space. (bad for early game but good for mid/late)
-3rd bases problematic.
+Decent overlord placements. Although the path to get there is slower/more dangerous.
+XWT(s) no longer see up the platforms.
+Lots of bases.
+Wide spaces in center.

PICS/STATS:
+ Show Spoiler +

Mains

Nats

TP(Typhon Peaks)

Recommended: Probably Thumbs Up

Another new addition to the pool. This map has many bases, multiple tight paths and a wide open center area. The nat is moderately close but it feels somewhat open (even more so once the rocks are removed on the nearby ramp). The rush distance after that, between vertical bases is the one of the shortest of all the maps (favoring 1 base timing attacks on your nat), additionally you almost always have to kill your own rocks to prevent them from snuggling right up next to yours and sieging your gas/etc. from below. The tight pathing almost everywhere except the center makes sieging any expansion very T/P favored. The natural 3rds are the most unsafe bases on the map, which you will almost always pass up for a slightly further base. The pathing is exceptionally tight just outside the main base there is a crevice near the edge (to prevent siege on main, but Blizz should have just moved the mains back instead). I guess it's worth noting that on every map they put LoS blockers in bases and around XWT in an enclosed circular formation, but they did not do this for the mains here. When spawning horizontally, you will need to bust 2 rocks and take the vertical nat. Versus T/P they will probably take the 12 or 6 base and defend massively and get the free 4th (natural 3rd) shortly after, or continue the base push by taking your nat 3rd and just be in your face the entire game. Since these bases are all so close, when they control 1 they can siege the other 2 with ease and safety. Even though this all sounds bad, it still seems acceptable since you will always have a somewhat safe option in any positional matchup to get a 3rd. Also this map just kind of looks great aesthetically, reminds me of Dr. Wily Skull Castle from MegaMan

Current Updates & Concerns:

-Short attack distance and threat (1 or 2 base timings from T/P favored) from vertical Drock positions 33% of spawns.
-Natural 3rds very poorly spaced, and easily abused from high ground, probably always a bad base for Z to take.
-Tight pathing around most of the map.
-Nat is moderately open and more so once Drocks are killed (which you will probably end up killing in 66% of games)
-Base layout in horizontal positions seems like it could be very difficult versus macro T/P which makes up 33% of spawns.
-Colossus/Tanks can easily abuse the very wide platforms around the XWTs.
+Wide center.
+Close nat.
+Lots of bases.
+Close 3rds/4ths.
+Good overlord placements.
+33% chance of Diagonal positions look very good.

PICS/STATS:
+ Show Spoiler +

Mains

Nats

In closing, the game is beginning to form a map coherent balance enough so- that we can see what kind of maps each race wants, what kind of terrain/tactics are abusive in XvX matchups, and a general playstyle for each race to dictate base layout, spacial requirements, and base counts, etc. That noted, the most important thing gathered from all this: (using map analyzer) Anything 120 distance and below from main to main is too short. Ideally I think you want somewhere around 130-160? And from natural to natural you will want something like 120-150, because 110 or lower seems much too close as well. There always needs to be somewhat safe 3rd base in either direction, so as not to create positional imbalance from any direction. And the natural base needs to be close enough to the ramp and enclosed enough so that 1 or 2 base timings can't skirt around early defenses so easily. These things stand out to me the most. There are other notable factors such as base counts, map sizes, drocks, gold base placements, XWT placements, etc. that are still not fully understood balance-wise imho.
Hopefully a thread like this can kick-start discussions for those kinds of things.

I know some people hate when forum-goers do this but it certainly matters to me when reading threads like these so fuck it. I'm currently master zerg rank (even though I don't really play much anymore). I still follow everything with SC2 E-sports, including reading, watching, and listening to all the top players as well as my team Ventrillo. I've played BW since 98' among many other RTS and made hundreds of maps and I definitely understand racial balance, positional balance, and just general map making. I was one of the first and longest members at broodwarmaps.net and i've made a few sc2 maps blah blah, I can go on, but you get the point.

Also, I was actually planning to make an additional thread with some rough drafts of suggested changes to the current ladder maps that will improve the zerg presence and promote balance for all the races on them. But since I can't, I'll just post them here and you guys can discuss them here also. Hopefully some (good) map melee map makers *cough* ICCUP guys, with more time can take these drafts and create their own updates and maybe Blizzard will actually take them into consideration seeing as all the work is done on modifying and updating the maps.

+ Show Spoiler +

XNC

TST

PS- Here are all the pics and data I used to create this thread. Originally I was going to upload all the screenshots of the tank/colossus ranges, map pics, rush distances, old version comparisons etc. But It's just too many pictures and too much thread and I already spent a week+ doing all this work anyways. So here they all are zipped up into a file if you wanna see proof of all that stuff:
http://www.mediafire.com/?9z81ztm9h1raght
And sorry for bitmap (large file size) on some of the images, I forgot to convert them to png. :/

MrCon

France29748 Posts

March 04 2011 02:11 GMT

Nice post man, just read until metalopolis but will read the rest right now.
I think one good fix for delta quadrant would be to make it a 3 players map.

tsuxiit

1305 Posts

March 04 2011 02:12 GMT

Great writeup. Incredibly comprehensive. I've actually been OK with ZvP and ZvT on Backwater Gulch, however; I find it really easy to pressure Protoss' expo with Roaches due to the huge ramp and people have been raging at me nonstop on a 3300 master level. ZvT also seems okay because you can mass bases on the side of the map away from your opponent and defend them all relatively easily with mutas (compensating for the, as you say, untakeable golds). There aren't all that many great places to put tanks and flanking can be pretty brutal (it's the only map where I haven't felt like I'm getting anally probed by Dustin Browder as I break down the rocks close to my base). I think it's solidly OK if you can survive the same early game bullshit you have been on other maps, though ZvP can get pretty hairy if you allow Protoss to get a third base, which is difficult to prevent.

mahnini

United States6862 Posts

March 04 2011 02:12 GMT

renamed by spor's request

RoarMan

Canada745 Posts

March 04 2011 02:15 GMT

Interesting read and I really agree with you about Xel'Naga and Scrap station, especially Scrap. Lot's of people say that Scrap is really Z favoured but I don't agree with them 100%.

I also feel very strong about your point on Metalopolis though, it's either a very easy game for Z due to far positions or just hell in close positions.

Techno

1900 Posts

March 04 2011 02:15 GMT

I really think Back Water gulch is not anti Zerg.
At the very least it's too early to tell. The map is too different from other maps to justify the usual argument of open spaces and rush distances, also, the rush distances aren't that small.

As a Terran, the many small pathways make me fear zergling run bys and I feel vulnerable to flanks.
I think the map makes for some very interesting battles.

Saracen

United States5139 Posts

March 04 2011 02:15 GMT

Very impressive stuff.

kasumimi

Greece460 Posts

March 04 2011 02:16 GMT

Thanks for a very nice writeup.
Although I think you are being hyperbolic on the maps that have a chance for close distance spawn. There is a chance you will spawn close and you'll have trouble taking a third yes, but you have to adapt your style. You can't expect all games to be nice smooth macro games where you start engaging after your third is up and running.

I mean for example you have lost temple as reluctant thumbs up, whereas if you spawn cross position you are extremely comfortable and when you spawn close you need to be on edge and probably play 2 base-eco aggression (which is a viable style). July vs Clide is a prime example of 2 base zerg.

Lightningbullet

United States507 Posts

March 04 2011 02:17 GMT

Nice review of the maps. I'll be sure to improve on certain maps. I can't help but complain about how hard it is to play zerg in bronze league.

Dante08

Singapore4128 Posts

March 04 2011 02:18 GMT

#10

Great thread, should give zergs a good idea of how to play the different maps and which to thumb down.

Techno

1900 Posts

March 04 2011 02:19 GMT

#11

On March 04 2011 11:18 Dante08 wrote:
Great thread, should give zergs a good idea of how to play the different maps and which to thumb down.

Zerg players should decide for themselves. Dogma negatively affects the variety of the game.

Nice review of the maps. I'll be sure to improve on certain maps. I can't help but complain about how hard it is to play zerg in bronze league.

This is not the appropriate thread for this.

tsuxiit

1305 Posts

March 04 2011 02:19 GMT

#12

I saw Slag Pits and literally just immediately vetoed it. The fact that Blizzard calls it a 'macro map' is revolting. Ugh.

IamOBESE

United States134 Posts

March 04 2011 02:21 GMT

#13

Very informative thread, thanks for posting

HydroXy

United States513 Posts

March 04 2011 02:22 GMT

#14

Wow, this is awesome. Thanks for spending the time to prepare this. It not only informs Zergs who may be unfamiliar with the new maps, but I think more importantly it might grab the attention of some people at Blizzard.

I'd like to be able to play on ladder, but I find it very frustrating as a Zerg. I'm perplexed how the developers can purport that the new maps are more geared toward macro games. The maps still fail to give the close spawns enough distance; they still contain random and unnecessary physical features (death plateaus on Backwater Gulch, high ground outside natural/narrow path behind natural on Slag Pits); and perhaps worst of all, they remove Shakuras Plateau, which was generally regarded as an enjoyable macro map (even though the closer of the two spawns is difficult for Zerg if P/T expands towards the main), and leave in Delta Quadrant (surely knowing all the complaints surrounding it). At the worst times, seeing the failures of the previous maps arise again in the new map pool drives me to wanting to abandon Zerg, and that's not fun.

I'm skeptical of Blizzard's ability to deliver better maps; I can only dream that we one day get a separate ladder (or even just a separate matchmaking system) with GSL maps.

raf3776

United States1904 Posts

March 04 2011 02:22 GMT

#15

Idk i think the new maps favor zerg more. Although its really strong for 2 base zerg play as its such an open choke you can do whatever you want freely. you can push in against toss and make them waste all of their FF to block off a choke on the new maps and then 30 seconds later push in.

duckii

Germany1017 Posts

March 04 2011 02:24 GMT

#16

slag pits has a similar base layout to metalopolis and enough bases imo, but it should be a bit more stretched out. Everything but close position is pretty zerg favored though I think.

MindRush

Romania916 Posts

March 04 2011 02:26 GMT

#17

these are zerg thoughts maybe, but Typhon peaks is so broken, same as BackWater Gulch
too many cliffs and denivelations going from base to base, how does that affect ZvP?
see those collosi abuse that, then say goodnight as everything is too narrow.

Lobotomist

United States1541 Posts

March 04 2011 02:27 GMT

#18

So continued thumbs down on Delta Quadrant, with the new additions of Slag and Backwater. Sounds like a good plan.

It'd be nice if the map pool had a few less destructible rocks. They either prevent expo taking or open short, narrow paths to your base, both of which are bad for zergs. I feel like the only destructible rocks I like are the ones covering the gold on XNC.

fickazzz

Germany152 Posts

March 04 2011 02:46 GMT

#19

not sure if i like the thumbs up on typhon... i mean the vertical positions vs a terran is so so bad :/ and i feel like i cant win a mid/lategame vs toss on the map because of the narrow hallways...3 forcefields cut your in half... its just 2 easy for protoss

cHaNg-sTa

United States1058 Posts

March 04 2011 02:51 GMT

#20

Backwater Gulch is just a terrible map in general. I wonder what the hell Blizzard was thinking when they made this map. Near impossible to take natural for all 3 races, especially Terran and Protoss. This just encourages all-in play and it's really not fun to play at all.

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