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[D] 5 Roach Rush + Creep Expo Block

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
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JaqMs
Profile Joined August 2007
United States73 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-01 01:26:51
February 22 2011 01:18 GMT
#1
Hey everyone. Here is a new unorthodox ZvP strategy that I've been testing out. It's a slightly modified 5 roach rush where you block your opponent's natural with creep instead of fully committing to the rush. Here is the build order:

+ Show Spoiler +
10 Overlord
11 Pool
12 Extractor / 2 drones
14 Zergling
15 Queen
18 Overlord
18 Queen
18 Roach Warren
20 Overlord / Pull gas drones
20 Make 5 roaches
32 Hatchery


Edit: Here is an alternative build order that has a faster expo hatch but with less droning and two less roaches. I've found this to be far more effective for mid-game transition.

+ Show Spoiler +
9 Overlord
11 Pool
15 Overlord
15 Queen
17 Zergling
18 Extractor / 3 drones
18 Roach Warren
17 Overlord
17 Queen
19 3 Roaches / Pull gas drones
28 Hatchery
27 Do hatch cancel trick


Send your first queen to your opponent's natural right after the first inject, along with the 2 zerglings to make sure your queen doesn't get scouted on the way. Halfway across the map, send a drone to the queen. At around 5:20, you should have 300 minerals and be a slight distance from their natural. Do the hatch cancel trick, place two creep tumors, send your queen and drone back, and THEN start your natural hatch. Spread the creep to block their build spot (you should only need one more creep tumor to reach it. Your five roaches should arrive shortly after to apply pressure to their ramp and defend the building creep tumors if need be. Save your roaches to defend against an early push.

Cost

The cost of the creep block is 75 minerals for the canceled hatch and a 3 second delay in spawning larva. Your first queen will arrive at your natural before the hatch finishes. This will also delay ling speed upgrade, which you may need to deny your opponent from expoing somewhere else.

Implications

What this does is limits toss to one base play, leaving you with less mystery and letting you adequately prepare. You will know that he will go for a build that counters the 5rr. You will know he went 3 gate robo if he clears the creep relatively early. Still, it takes up to 2 minutes for the creep to completely disappear. If he goes 4 gate, your creep can show you his army composition and the exact time he moves out. His expo will be delayed even more since he can't expand as easily while pushing. Success of this strategy depends on making sure he doesn't expand somewhere else.

Replays

Here is a replay of ZvP against a 2000 diamond player. He went blink stalkers, which was questionable since it cost him the game

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142666-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

And here is a ZvT against a gold player. Pretty funny how the creep blocks his natural RIGHT before his CC lands. I got far ahead of him economically and had ultras when he did his first push. I had a huge window of opportunity to win after that but I made some terrible decisions.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142665-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

Let me know what you guys think about the integrity of this strategy. I don't have the time or experience to develop this build fully, and I don't know if it provides enough benefit. However, I've had some great successes with it and have had people comment on its cleverness. It doesn't win games, but it does change the early game dynamics for your favor.
Galaxy77
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Hong Kong256 Posts
February 22 2011 01:22 GMT
#2
So what if they just 4 gate and dont even bother expoing? Your expo wont be finished in time and he will be warping in units all over you, you will have no spine crawlers, how can you possibly defend?
friscosav
Profile Joined June 2010
United States71 Posts
February 22 2011 01:24 GMT
#3
lol sounds like a fun strategy, but I wouldn't try it in any competitive setting. you need those injects! =P
"Don't be no punk young homie, if it's worth it TAKE that risk"
Volka
Profile Joined December 2010
Argentina408 Posts
February 22 2011 01:27 GMT
#4
Lol kinda of crazy thing to be doing...
Seriously, Queens are so slow. I chrono a Stalker and kill her in the middle of the Xelnanga Cavern. Also, you lose larva inject. I'd say it puts you behind.

Funny thing to do to throw him off but I doubt it'd work on higher leves.
http://www.starsite.com.ar
Deathmare
Profile Joined February 2011
United States30 Posts
February 22 2011 01:43 GMT
#5
this sounds far too showy to be practical. you waste a lot of minerals with the hatch cancel, and early on in the game that could be devastating, especially if it turns out he's going 4gate. on top of that, you either have to spend another 150 minerals early, which again is severely detrimental, or throw injections completely out the window. the drone/unit production lost during that time is RIDICULOUSLY detrimental, especially if you're not being aggressive with the roaches, which you suggested you didnt need to be.

also, why wouldnt you get an obs as toss anyway?

tl;dr this hurts your economy more than it's intended to hurt the protoss's. all it does is prevent FE
Climbing my way to Grandmasters, one learned lesson at a time.
rofio
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia7 Posts
February 22 2011 01:50 GMT
#6
Ah I had this (or similar) done to me in a zvp recently.. It turned into mass spines actually encroaching into my base before I pulled a clutch void for victory. I'll attach a replay when I'm at pc.
29 fps
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States5724 Posts
February 22 2011 01:57 GMT
#7
somehow, it seems better to just proxy hatch, but that takes a longer time. it does sound fun to pull off, though.

4v4 is a battle of who has the better computer.
JaqMs
Profile Joined August 2007
United States73 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-22 02:07:13
February 22 2011 02:05 GMT
#8
On February 22 2011 10:43 Deathmare wrote:
this sounds far too showy to be practical. you waste a lot of minerals with the hatch cancel, and early on in the game that could be devastating, especially if it turns out he's going 4gate. on top of that, you either have to spend another 150 minerals early, which again is severely detrimental, or throw injections completely out the window. the drone/unit production lost during that time is RIDICULOUSLY detrimental, especially if you're not being aggressive with the roaches, which you suggested you didnt need to be.

also, why wouldnt you get an obs as toss anyway?

tl;dr this hurts your economy more than it's intended to hurt the protoss's. all it does is prevent FE


I wouldn't say it's that detrimental to your economy. You're merely foregoing early speedlings to hurt their mid game economy. Instead of spending 100/100 on ling speed upgrade and lings, you spend 150 on a second queen and 75 minerals for the cancelled hatch. You don't miss any injects or production, unless 3 seconds will cost you the game.
JaqMs
Profile Joined August 2007
United States73 Posts
February 23 2011 22:30 GMT
#9
I've optimized the build order:

9 Overlord
11 Pool
15 Overlord
15 Queen
17 Zergling
18 Extractor / 3 drones
18 Roach Warren
17 Overlord
17 Queen
19 5 Roaches / Pull gas drones
32 Hatchery

You will have 3 roaches and 2 zerglings with your queen by 5:20. That way your queen will be protected from assassination.
thebigdonkey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States354 Posts
February 23 2011 22:55 GMT
#10
On February 24 2011 07:30 JaqMs wrote:
I've optimized the build order:

9 Overlord
11 Pool
15 Overlord
15 Queen
17 Zergling
18 Extractor / 3 drones
18 Roach Warren
17 Overlord
17 Queen
19 5 Roaches / Pull gas drones
32 Hatchery

You will have 3 roaches and 2 zerglings with your queen by 5:20. That way your queen will be protected from assassination.


So that would put her arrival time at the protoss base at around 17:38?
JaqMs
Profile Joined August 2007
United States73 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-23 23:26:10
February 23 2011 23:25 GMT
#11
On February 24 2011 07:55 thebigdonkey wrote:
So that would put her arrival time at the protoss base at around 17:38?

The queen and 3 roaches arrive within two creep tumor's distance from the opponent's natural at 5:20, early enough to block the fastest of FE's. Well not forge fast expand, but then your roaches will do major damage. That timing is in xel naga caverns, so it would be even earlier in steppes or such.
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
February 24 2011 00:10 GMT
#12
if he 4-gates you, don't you auto-lose, since you've invested a queen, roaches and lings into blocking an expo he would never take?

And why does the creep allow you to see his army composition if he proxy'd a pylon that you never check for because you are too busy defending the migrating queen?


I think the concept is creative and could be very useful, but I am highly skeptical of this execution vs a traditional 4-gate, which most protoss under master seem to opt for anyway.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
BoxedLunch
Profile Joined January 2011
United States387 Posts
February 24 2011 00:24 GMT
#13
this is funny. I like to sentry expand against zerg and if I went to do that and found creep, I would be heartily disappointed. I'd need to rush an observer in order to take my expo, and that is just annoying. It seems easy enough to scout that your opponent is not 4 gating, and since many toss players will sit back and mass up sentries for the first few minutes, you can probably get the queen to his nat in time to block his expo. A nice reversal on the protoss blocking the zergs natural. I'd love to see this work
In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are not
Kyadytim
Profile Joined March 2009
United States886 Posts
February 24 2011 00:53 GMT
#14
Would this get creep to the opponent's natural in time to deny a 16 nexus opening, or a forge -> nexus variant that would be a response to a pool that early? If I saw creep encroaching and my nexus wasn't going to be placed soon enough, it's fine to cut a few probes, because I know you put yourself behind to get that creep out there.

Also, if the protoss scouts this, I think even a sentry expo can snipe building creep tumors to keep space clear for a nexus.


Finally, I don't think it's possible to keep the Protoss from scouting this with only 2 Zerglings, because if they scout no queen in your main and a hatchery that's been injected, they know the queen has to be somewhere on the map.
CodECleaR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States395 Posts
February 24 2011 00:56 GMT
#15
This intricate and well thought out cheese is what owns me in ladder. I sincerely hope, for every protoss' sake that no good zerg reads this xD

Also, can I hire you to think of some toss cheese for me? lol
How do you beat a terran who's hardcore turtling off 3 base? Flip him on his back and walk away."
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-24 01:51:58
February 24 2011 01:49 GMT
#16
Yeah, what if he just turns it into a 4gate once you block the nat? What exactly are you going to do to stop it? Drop 5 Spines lol?

EDIT: I mean, if he does turn it into a 4gate, that Queen is going to die before it will get back, and your roach army/ling army is going to get overwhelmed. Without another queen, you just aren't going to have the larva to stop a 1gas 4gate
ebs
Profile Joined November 2010
16 Posts
February 24 2011 05:03 GMT
#17
The biggest problem I see is that you have to pool 300 resources for a longer period of time than normal when expanding. You're pooling 300 at 5:20 and effectively 375 at ~5:30-5:35 when you actually drop that hatch, and the hatch is 10-15seconds later than it would otherwise be.

So, rather than pulling the drone and sending it out to build a hatch in such a way that it drops it down right at 300, you're pulling the drone out at the same time, but then forgetting about it for 15seconds AND not spending that money.

I guess this could be mitigated somewhat by sending 2 drones out (one to your nat, one to the middle), but you're still dropping your hatch at 375mins instead of 300.

On top of that, you're dropping your creep tumor at the time that WarpGates are warping in if they are in fact 4gating you.
Z really needs to be on top of their early game to hold off a 4gate, either with strong one-base play or a early enough expo that they can produce out of 2 hatches when the pressure starts. 32-hatch with 5 roaches and 2 zerglings and 1 queen (either you engage in the middle to defend the queen in the middle, or the queen in the middle dies b/c you're pulling back)...that's just not going to cut it. The hatch isn't up in time to be productive and you're short something between 12 zerglings and 4 roaches.

If it can't hold off a 4-gate, then its not really viable in this metagame.

TLDR: This forces your opponent to 1-base play, and you're weak to 1-base play. It would only work against an opponent intent on expanding and not taking the win when presented to him.
JaqMs
Profile Joined August 2007
United States73 Posts
February 24 2011 07:49 GMT
#18
Alright. I've created yet another build order to address the problem of 4gate counters:

+ Show Spoiler +
9 Overlord
11 Pool
15 Overlord
15 Queen
17 Zergling
18 Extractor / 3 drones
18 Roach Warren
17 Overlord
17 Queen
19 3 Roaches / Pull gas drones
28 Hatchery
27 Do hatch cancel trick


The advantage of this build is that your second hatch starts 30 seconds earlier. The disadvantage is that the returning queen will miss about 15 seconds of inject on your second hatch.

I decided to cut the roaches from 5 to 3 since you are not going for the kill anyway. What you mainly want to do is make the toss use a force field or contain any stalkers that try to move out to stop the creep spread.

Since you're almost guaranteed to face an early push, I was thinking 2-4 spine crawlers should be built in your main and moved to your natural upon completion. This, along with lings and/or roaches, should be enough to defend.
Deleted_143
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia256 Posts
February 24 2011 07:58 GMT
#19
--- Nuked ---
sputnik.theory
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Poland449 Posts
March 07 2011 22:37 GMT
#20
I wouldn't know to laugh or cry if this ever happened to me /
“On the night of the murder I was at home, asleep. The characters in my dream can vouch for me.”
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