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[G] Protoss Shield Upgrade Defense

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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aimless
Profile Joined January 2011
United States57 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 20:46:22
January 29 2011 03:51 GMT
#1
I've noticed that questions about researching Protoss shield upgrades get asked every once in a while. But there are no definitive explanations on why it isn't done much. Some say to never get them, or only get them after all the other upgrades have been exhausted. In fact, outside of "when there's nothing left to upgrade", I haven't heard a rational to research them. Which of course makes me wonder - are there any good times/situations to get Protoss shield upgrades?

First, though, I should look at the reasons why they are not gotten often. As I see it, there are three common reasons.

Reason #1 - prohibitive cost + Show Spoiler +
Denoting price as minerals/gas:
  • The shield upgrade levels cost 200/200, 300/300, 400/400. The total for all shield levels is 900/900.
  • The ground weapons, ground armor, and air weapons levels all cost 100/100, 175/175, 250/250. The total for any single tech path is 525/525.
  • The air armor levels cost 150/150, 225/225, 300/300. The total for all air armor levels is 675/675.
It is clear the shield upgrades are much more expensive than any other upgrade. Purchase all 3 shield upgrades and only Ground Weapons Level 1 (1000/1000 total), or get all 3 ground weapon and all 3 ground armor upgrades for an extra 50/50 (1050/1050 total).

Reason #2 - usefulness + Show Spoiler +
Most Protoss units already have some amount of armor, so gaining armor upgrades increases that edge. Going from 0 to 1 is less "good" than going from 1 to 2 (and from 2 to 3 and so on). The reason is that the linear change in damage reduction causes a nonlinear change in the percentage of damage reduction. This has been highlighted by others, but I will outline it here.

Take the marine, for example. It does 6 damage. Against Zealot shields, it does the full 6 damage. Against Zealot health points, it does 5 damage (Zealots have 1 armor). That is a 17% damage reduction (as compared to the full damage to shields). Now you have the choice of buying either Ground Armor Level 1 or Shield Level 1. If you buy the shields, you reduce damage to their shields by 17% (from 6 to 5). If you buy the armor, you reduce damage to their health points by 20% (from 5 to 4). Therefore, the armor upgrade is better proportionally.

However, some units break this concept. For the same percentage-based reasoning, any unit which receives more than +1 damage per upgrade (Roach/Thor/Immortal) or does splash damage (Siege Tank/Collossus/Ultralisk) reduces the benefits of armor and shield upgrades in general. Particularly units like the Thor, which are more likely to do overkill than have to shoot an extra shot due to armor concerns. Against these units, damage upgrades are typically better, except where there are specific breaks in the number of attacks needed to kill/be killed.

Important to remember against Terran, the shield upgrade is very fragile and it is the only forge upgrade that can be removed with a spell (Ghost's EMP Round). In fact, the Ghost can remove all the shields from the following units with 1 EMP: Probe, Zealot, Sentry, Stalker, High Templar, Dark Templar, Observer, Warp Prism, Immortal, Phoenix, Void Ray. If that feels like a lot of units, turns out, it is. The only units that have any shields left are Colossus, Carriers, Archons, and Motherships. So unless you are going heavy on these 4 units (which is very cost prohibitive) or micro High Templar to neutralize Ghosts, shield upgrades can be very risky against a good Terran player who checks what upgrades you are getting. And getting High Templar or Archons can trigger even a poor player into getting Ghosts as an obvious "counter".

Reason #3 - timing + Show Spoiler +
Upgrading shields spends time the forge could be using to upgrade something else. In many high level games, which involve timing pushes, those pushes are often based on attacking just as a particular upgrade is finished. Weapons and armor upgrades cost less, so you can start them sooner and have a slightly larger force than you would have with a shield upgrade push.

All that being said, I still think that there are situations when getting the shield upgrade is useful. If you tend to play a balanced Gateway/Stargate style, the Shield upgrade affects both units. In this sense, it is cost effective to get one upgrade that covers both sets of units (not to mention Phoenix and Void Ray have no base armor, so shield upgrades are just as strong as armor upgrades). Even more so if you get units that are good at harassing and/or have strong shields relative to health points. Stalkers, Dark Templar, and Void Rays all fit this description. They aren't used much, but Carriers can also benefit from shields more than armor. Or specifically, their Interceptors do. Interceptors do not heal when they return to the Carrier. And they have 0 base armor. So upgrading their shields provides the same percentage damage reduction as armor upgrades, while increasing their survivability better as they can regenerate shields while stowed away. And on that same tech path, Motherships, with their huge 350 shields, obviously benefit from additional shield levels. As a bonus, shield upgrades also work on buildings, so using cannons as defense becomes a little safer as well.

Viability in matchups:
PvZ - The Archon, dealing bonus damage to biological units, becomes stronger and can handle Zerglings and Mutalisks better. Additionally, with the strengthening of Protoss air builds, the appeal of getting one 200/200 upgrade that works for ground and air units, rather than separate 100/100 (ground armor) and 150/150 (air armor) defensive upgrades may catch on. Phoenix can survive longer against Mutalisk due to reduced bounce damage, and the ability to kite and recharge shields becomes even better.
PvP - Without focusing on any critical breakpoints, a shield-upgraded Protoss player could do harass attacks, designed to "wound" the other player. By damaging the health of several units then running away, the shield-upgraded player will be better off, even if taking health damage as well. Repeated wounding attacks like this, over time as additional shield upgrades are researched, can be a viable way to pressure with fast units like Stalkers while creating an advantage over armor upgrades.
PvT - Clearly the most dangerous matchup to get shield upgrades. But there are situations where it still makes sense to get them. For example, look at a typical marine-tank Terran. Immortals work well against the tanks, but are fragile against marines. And once their shields are down, they become fragile against the tanks as well. But by strengthening shields, they can last much longer.

Analysis of Immortal shield vs Marine attack upgrades:+ Show Spoiler +
Shield vs +3 Infantry Weapons = ~12 attacks
Shield vs +2 Infantry Weapons = ~13 attacks
Shield vs +1 Infantry Weapons = ~15 attacks
Even Upgrades = ~17 attacks
+1 Shield vs Infantry Weapons = 20 attacks
+2 Shield vs Infantry Weapons = 25 attacks
+3 Shield vs Infantry Weapons = ~34 attacks
+4 Shield vs Infantry Weapons = 50 attacks*
+5 Shield vs Infantry Weapons = 100 attacks*
*Only possible with the Sentry's Guardian Shield ability, which acts like +2 shield/armor from ranged attacks.

Getting +1 shields while under Guardian Shield, makes the Immortal's shield survive twice as many attacks from Marines as non-upgraded shields. This could be very useful in games where Immortals are needed to tank the damage from siege cannons.

These excellent threads go into much more depth about the critical upgrade matchups:
[G] Critical Upgrade Analysis      Upgrade Analysis Data

Summary: Shield upgrades are not bad when gotten for a purpose. I think that they will see use as defensive/harass upgrades for a more macro-oriented player, rather than for offensive/timing upgrades.
Also, enjoy the punny title.

EDIT #1: Thanks to everyone for the positive feedback. Greatly appreciated.

EDIT #2:
On January 29 2011 16:48 Validity wrote:
shield upgrades don't affect hardened shields iirc

True and false. The shield upgrade is applied first, so when taking damage greater than 10, the damage is reduced to by the shield upgrade, then reduced to 10. There is no difference.
However, for all damage less than 10, the shield upgrade does work (because Hardened Shields don't even activate). I used Marines in the example because they are often used to quickly drain an Immortal's shield so Mauraders/Siege Tanks/Thors can finish the job. Since their damage is less than 10, the shield upgrade will lower their damage to shields (that is, the Marine's 6 damage will become 5 damage with +1 Shields). This means an Immortal can take more shots before losing the critical Hardened Shield. Also note that the Sentry's Guardian Shield is applied after Hardened Shield, so an Immortal only takes 8 damage from attacks of more than 10 damage (Hardened Shield reduces the attack to 10, then Guardian Shield subtracts 2 more). This only works for ranged attacks. Notice how important having Sentries mixed with Immortals can be.
Dabba
Profile Joined January 2010
United States182 Posts
January 29 2011 07:27 GMT
#2
Very well written and insightfull. Ill try to keep these facts when doing my ups!
.kv
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2332 Posts
January 29 2011 07:47 GMT
#3
very well written...needed this to understand more about the shield upgrades
Aui_2000
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada435 Posts
January 29 2011 07:48 GMT
#4
shield upgrades don't affect hardened shields iirc
follow @aui_2000 // www.twitch.tv/aui_2000
haka
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1414 Posts
January 29 2011 07:49 GMT
#5
Sheild upgrade seems only useful against zerg. Versus terran, it seems like a waste of resources.
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10321 Posts
January 29 2011 07:51 GMT
#6
Thanks for sharing! And wow, did not know that Guardian Shield reduced all ranged attacks by 2?!?! Holy eff. I was sure it was 10% or 20% for a long time! Now that I think about it, that was way back in the Beta wasn't it? xD

Anyways yup thanks for making this post. I like Shields more so I get them, but haven't thought about it too much. I do like to use air units and harass a lot though so I guess it's fitting that I get Shield upgrades .
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Zrana
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom698 Posts
January 29 2011 08:00 GMT
#7
Might be interesting to see shield upgrades with something like Tyler's blink stalker build vs zerg (where the usual response has to include lings and maybe hydras which are both low dmg/high rate of attack units)
Zephan
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada29 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-29 08:09:10
January 29 2011 08:06 GMT
#8
The thing which is very important, is the fact that shields regenerate. A shield upgrade helps an indefinite amount, while an armor upgrade helps to a limited amount, unless you have a terran buddy. This is extremely important if you are going for a blink stalker build since you would usually blink your stalker away before it takes much damage, allowing for the shields to regen.

Do not get me wrong, I'm not saying that shields>armor, but rather that it's situational. I personally get armor, since blink micro is quite difficult

Edit: Okay, you have mentioned it, but I guess I want to elaborate on it more
Why hello there
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-29 09:11:26
January 29 2011 09:10 GMT
#9
On January 29 2011 17:00 Zrana wrote:
Might be interesting to see shield upgrades with something like Tyler's blink stalker build vs zerg (where the usual response has to include lings and maybe hydras which are both low dmg/high rate of attack units)


I'm assuming you are talking about the 4-gate all-in blink stalkers. There's no resources to spare in the build, nor is it worth delaying the push to get a shield upgrade (or any upgrade).

A good rule of thumb for any beginning protoss players is don't even think about shield upgrades until you have 2 forges and are already at 2/2 for weapons/armor, which means late game. The 200/200 cost for +1 shields is too prohibitive early and mid-game (consider that the cost the same as the colossi range upgrade), and you can't really reap the benefits of it earlier in the game since most likely you will have a small, mostly ground-based army.

The reason why I consider the above a good rule of thumb is with 2 forges (you should always aim to get 2 forges late game in all matchups), if you go straight to 3/3 weapon/armor, 1 forge suddenly becomes useless as you can research only 1 lv of a particular upgrade at a time. But if you stagger it after 2/2, by going 3 weapons + 1 shields, then 3 armor + 2 shields you avoid this. Plus +1 shields IMO I feel is better than +3 armor in most cases for the cost since at those levels the shield upgrade is cheaper than the armor upgrade.
Fluxx
Profile Joined July 2008
Netherlands58 Posts
February 27 2011 13:03 GMT
#10
Something else you might want to add. Shields are not affected by any attack modifier (correct me if I am wrong). So stalkers f.e. will only take 10 damage on their shields against marauders, instead of the 20 when they are down.

This should change the math, since aside from zerg most units from the other races got a modifier.
Eiviyn
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom169 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-27 13:44:15
February 27 2011 13:41 GMT
#11
On February 27 2011 22:03 Fluxx wrote:
Something else you might want to add. Shields are not affected by any attack modifier (correct me if I am wrong). So stalkers f.e. will only take 10 damage on their shields against marauders, instead of the 20 when they are down.

This should change the math, since aside from zerg most units from the other races got a modifier.


This isn't true.

Though on an interesting (pointless?) note, if an attack breaks the target's shields, both shield reduction and armour reduction apply.

For example, say you have a stalker with 5 shields left and full life. You have 3 points in shields and 3 points in armour. A marauder hits the stalker. Usually, the hit would do (20-3) 17 damage, but because the attack breaks the shields, both armour and shield penalty get applied, causing the hit to deal (20-3-(3 upgrade + 1 base)) 13 damage instead.

As I said it's probably pointless but it's a tiny added extra benefit to having the shield upgrade.
Demus
Profile Joined May 2010
Netherlands305 Posts
February 27 2011 13:59 GMT
#12
There is another reason why people like armor over shields: most units have more health than shields. The zealot for example, who is designed to take a lot of punishment, has twice as many hp as shield. Which means that, even given all other things equal, upgrading armor will be twice as effective as upgrading shields. The only unit with more shield than health is the archon, but since you won't be seeing him untill lategame anyway, you might as well postpone the shield upgrades untill then.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
February 27 2011 14:05 GMT
#13
On February 27 2011 22:03 Fluxx wrote:
Something else you might want to add. Shields are not affected by any attack modifier (correct me if I am wrong). So stalkers f.e. will only take 10 damage on their shields against marauders, instead of the 20 when they are down.

This should change the math, since aside from zerg most units from the other races got a modifier.

this is not true
Kazzoo
Profile Joined October 2010
France368 Posts
February 27 2011 14:12 GMT
#14
Three reasons I see to take shield early: air ground based play, harrassement and the fact that shield regenerates.

Shield will benefit all your units, so if you want to go for some air+ground army, it will actually be more cost effective than ground armor + air armor (200/200 vs 250/250+free cybs for something else).

When harassing, you often take damage until your shield is down and then back. So having more of it makes harassement more succesfull.

The third one is self explicit.

As for spells, I'm not sure but I think storm, fg and all that stuff don't take armor into account, so saying that shield is the only upgrade that can be removed with a spell is not quite really right.
Eiviyn
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom169 Posts
February 27 2011 14:25 GMT
#15
On February 27 2011 23:12 levelnoobz wrote:
As for spells, I'm not sure but I think storm, fg and all that stuff don't take armor into account, so saying that shield is the only upgrade that can be removed with a spell is not quite really right.


There is no mechanic in sc2 that allows anything to ignore one armour type but factor in another. It's either ignore everything (Snipe) or ignore nothing (unit attacks).

As it stands, Psionic Storm ignores all armour. Most spells work like this.
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
February 27 2011 14:29 GMT
#16
On February 27 2011 23:12 levelnoobz wrote:
Three reasons I see to take shield early: air ground based play, harrassement and the fact that shield regenerates.

Shield will benefit all your units, so if you want to go for some air+ground army, it will actually be more cost effective than ground armor + air armor (200/200 vs 250/250+free cybs for something else).

When harassing, you often take damage until your shield is down and then back. So having more of it makes harassement more succesfull.

The third one is self explicit.

As for spells, I'm not sure but I think storm, fg and all that stuff don't take armor into account, so saying that shield is the only upgrade that can be removed with a spell is not quite really right.


That will probably greatly benefit void ray/colossi.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
plagiarisedwords
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom138 Posts
February 27 2011 14:29 GMT
#17
In addition, I think the other two important things to consider are the shield to health ratio of the units and whether or not you are engaged in hit and run tactics or all out engagements.

I think a lot of the reason for favouring amour/attack upgrades over shields is that they improve the dynamics of big engagements.

Zealot: 50 shields 100 health
Stalker: 80 shields 80 health

In big battles where I am trading armies, we can assume that both shields and health will be burnt through. For zealots, shield upgrade only applies to 1/3 of the total HP (shield +health) while for stalkers it only applies to 1/2. For an upgrade that costs double, it is simply not worth it in the short term.
Latedi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden1027 Posts
February 27 2011 14:33 GMT
#18
This sure makes shield upgrades seem a lot better, maybe I'll start using them now.

The longer you can keep a unit alive the more you will benefit from upgrading shields. The armor reduces damage by amount x during the unit's life. That is because life does not regenerate, however, shields does. This mean you could potentially reduce infinite damage if you keep your unit alive forever which is why this upgrade is good for shorter encounters where your units don't lose all of their shields.
I am Latedi.
Fluxx
Profile Joined July 2008
Netherlands58 Posts
February 27 2011 14:40 GMT
#19
Thank you for correcting me on the armortype reduction, I was not 100% how it worked.
However by reading what everyone has brought up in this thread, getting shield upgrades might be good if you go a defensive fast expand build with sentries backup. Into mass blink stalker play, or immortals.
ForTheDr3am
Profile Joined November 2010
842 Posts
February 27 2011 14:50 GMT
#20
Shield upgrades are the best in PvZ, where it is most likely that you have air units + ground units as well as Archons, and less Zealots. It is also more common to only have a single forge for an extended amount of time, and rushing to 3-1. You can then add a second forge and research armor/shield simultaneously.

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