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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RqPNF.jpg)
Published on: EU
Current version: 1.0
+ Show Spoiler [Change Log] +
1.0
- Fixed the preview, see posts in this thread on how I did it
0.6
- Fixed the map bounds, so the distances from the playable edge to the main minerals are the same on all starting positions
- Added a tiny amount of doodads
- Tweaked lighting a tiny bit
- Fixed so that black space won't be seen (as much) when the camera is at the edge of the map
- Strange FIX: Fixed the lobby preview of the map image so that it isn't vertically flipped (see post later in this thread)
0.5
- Minor doodad changes
0.4
Affecting balance:
- Moved the large ramp from the natural a bit closer to the middle
- Removed most of the gap between natural and 3rd (to make it more viable to use Collosi/Reapers to harass natural)
- Added LOS blockers to the edges around the middle (close to the Xel'naga towers, so it will be riskier to move close to the towers)
- Reshaped the cracks in the ice in the middle to make for tighter chokes close to the towers but wider where the new LOS blockers are (also to fix a few asymmetries)
- Removed pathing from the cliff behind the main
Visual:
- Even more texturing
- Added subtle height differences (not cliff) to make it look more like there are snow drifts instead of white patches of ground
- A few more doodads
0.3
- Made it easier to tank/thor/marine/marauder/whatever-drop the third and fourth by increasing the cliff size of the cliff next to the natural (this also makes it easier to siege drop the natural's geyser).
- Narrowed the choke to the 3rd and 4rth expansions
- Narrowed the chokes between the watchtowers (ie. the "cracks" in the ice are now wider)
- Added a lot of more doodads
- Fixed all the cliff seams with Gap Fillers
- More texturing
0.2:
- Fixed so the main mineral line cannot be sieged from the natural (forces Zerg to use two tumours to connect main and natural, instead of the previous single tumour)
- Made the main a tiny bit bigger
- Reduced the cliff close to the bridge a small bit, to make it harder to mass lots of ranged units there to defend the bridge
0.1
- Initial release
This is a 4 player map which is made for 1v1 play in which I tried to use rotational symmetry yet still achieve good positional balance despite not using VARS.
Not sure if I succeeded, so therefore I ask you; what do you think?
The reason I made the map use a snow-look was that I thought it would look cool, and the fact that it was mentioned in MotM 
Not sure if I have a bit too much exposure on the lighting, though, as that seems to be required to make the textures look like snow.
+ Show Spoiler [Result in Map of the Month competition…] +Thanks for participating in MotM #1! Here are your average scores from the judges in each category: Balance, Originality, Fun, and Aesthetics.
6 6.8 6.4 6.2 (rounded)
For a total of 25.4.
Thanks again!
iGrok, dimfish, BoomStevo, prodiG, FlopTurnReaver
Basic Information:
Name: Beneath the Ice
Author: NullCurrent
Type: Melee
Players: 4
Playable size: 162 x 156
+ Show Spoiler [Overview] +
+ Show Spoiler [Angled Overview] +
+ Show Spoiler [Map analyzer] +
+ Show Spoiler [Second entrance and LOS blockers] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UqnK0.jpg) The LOS blockers are placed on the defending side (the ramp to the main is in the top left corner). This to make it easier for an attacker to hold the position, but also make it harder to finally attack (unless the attacker has air units).
+ Show Spoiler [Watchtower coverage] +
+ Show Spoiler [Center LOS blockers] +
HQ Overview
HQ Tilted Overview
Features:
- Snow!
- Close natural with two entrances; one by a small bridge — through LOS blockers on the defending side of the bridge — and the other a somewhat wide ramp.
- 4 Xel'naga Watch Towers looking out over the middle, the closest tower is hard to hold for the defender (due to the bridge).
- Third and fourth expansions are out of the way, enabling the players to expand both towards and from their enemy.
- Cliff over the third and fourth which allows drops to do great damage to the expos without too much danger
- Overlord "resting spot" behind the minerals on the naturals (this cliff is one level higher than the natural cliff, not pathable by ground units).
- Non-proxyable Reaper cliff back in the main
- LOS blockers covering parts of the paths through the middle (making the Xel'naga towers even more important)
+ Show Spoiler [Example terran main] +An image for scale ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/70xrH.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler [Zerg Creep spread] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Mk8Bq.jpg) Two tumors are necess¨ary to connect main and natural
+ Show Spoiler [Overlord "Resting Spot"] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sL6Px.jpg) The high-ground behind the minerals allows the overlord to easier escape/wait for a good scouting time
+ Show Spoiler [Non-proxyable Reaper cliff] +Note the different cliff levels ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wf25N.jpg) Maybe open the image in a new tab/window to see the full image
Rush Distances:
Shortest: 115
Longest: 144
This is approximately the same as on Lost Temple.
Minerals and gas:
8 Normal mineral patches on all bases and expansions
2 Gas geysers on all bases and expansions
12 bases + expansions total
PS: Does anybody have any ideas on how to get the sc2 map analyzer to acknowledge bridges when calculating pathing?
(Currently I work around it by creating a temporary map file with the ground raised under the bridges)
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Very nice!
/Edit: me fool - not know bridges
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You can use bridges in SC2. Units path on them just fine. Hell, you can even build on them. No idea why the analyzer doesn't use them - probably just isn't programed to. 
Addendum: Okay, when I was doing some other testing with bridges I found some interesting stuff. Firstly, the building placement grid wireframes appear on the ground under the bridge, not on the bridge itself. Secondly, the vision for units and buildings on the bridge is calculated based on the ground the units are over, not on their position on the bridge. You can see it in the picture below where the SCV gives plenty of vision over the right platform, but the left platform is outside of vision despite the units and buildings on the bridge.
+ Show Spoiler +
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analyzer doesn't use them because its a doodad, and it looks at terrain.
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On January 02 2011 13:51 41d3n wrote:You can use bridges in SC2. Units path on them just fine. Hell, you can even build on them. No idea why the analyzer doesn't use them - probably just isn't programed to.
Almost positive bridges are not path-able without ground beneath them. I like the map design, but a few things should be changed. Keep in mind these are only to help you map, don't take them personally.
Map Size
You need to remake or shrink this map to be 144x144 or less. Rush distances with this size are far too long. Additionally, the distance to your 3rd will be very far and awkward. These issues combined with open space will make games too macro+turtle oriented, especially with no cliff harass on expansions.
Main Size
The main looks small in this picture. Imagine playing on the map, and reshape the main to be more fluid and playable. The part of the main sticking out is going to be weird, and too easy to proxy in. You should make them more circular, and make sure the gas/minerals aren't tank-able from the natural.
Aesthetics
I love the snow. The grass is also nice. You need to capitalize on these, and make the map less bland. Make sure each section is definable by landmarks, but blend them to avoid the 'layered" look of maps. I know snow maps can be hard to texture, but try clarifying areas and blending textures more (4+ textures in an area).
Natural Bridge
I think the bridge going out form the natural is cool. The problem is, an aggressive player who uses it can be tanked/attacked from the high ground. You should adjust it to face the center more, and make sure the player doesn't have to walk by the main to enter the natural.
Xel'Naga Towers
They're cleverly placed, but 4 is just too many. Can they see into the main/natural? I suggest you remove them and put one in the center. If you can be absolutely sure they don't provide vision into very much of the natural or main, four is probably okay.
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High-ground above minerals? That sounds like instant pain vs banshees and tanks z0mg not to mention I WANT those pesky overlords to DIE screw built in overlord positions. Also I don't like the corners having tons of empty space as that makes base racing a terran a sad affair (Personal preference).I have a feeling that there is a zerg bias in your map just from between your presentation and how ridiculously safe the 3rd looks (Not that I don't like the sound of that after playing so many games on Xel Naga Metal and BS sands).
On a positive note: OMGSNOWPRETTY
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On January 02 2011 14:06 Geovu wrote:
High-ground above minerals? That sounds like instant pain vs banshees and tanks z0mg not to mention I WANT those pesky overlords to DIE screw built in overlord positions. Also I don't like the corners having tons of empty space as that makes base racing a terran a sad affair (Personal preference).I have a feeling that there is a zerg bias in your map just from between your presentation and how ridiculously safe the 3rd looks (Not that I don't like the sound of that after playing so many games on Xel Naga Metal and BS sands).
On a positive note: OMGSNOWPRETTY
Yeah, the main issue with the map I see is Zerg. They have easy to hold expansions, a lot of surround potential, and very long rush distances. This can be fixed by just decreasing the map size to around 136x136, or more complex minute changes.
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I think the mains are fine, they just look small because the map is so huge. The empty center doesn't help the scale either
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Yeah now that I compare the scale of this map to others I have realized how insanely ginormous the map is. Like cross-positions look as big if not bigger than desert oasis and the map is twice as wide open as DO, which imo is the most wide open map that is in the (ex)pool. If it was a narrow choke ridden maze of a map it would be fine but as is it is Desert Oasis put together with lost temple and kulas ravine with steppes of war's wide center thrown in to boot.
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On January 02 2011 14:32 Geovu wrote:
Yeah now that I compare the scale of this map to others I have realized how insanely ginormous the map is. Like cross-positions look as big if not bigger than desert oasis and the map is twice as wide open as DO, which imo is the most wide open map that is in the (ex)pool. If it was a narrow choke ridden maze of a map it would be fine but as is it is Desert Oasis put together with lost temple and kulas ravine with steppes of war's wide center thrown in to boot.
Gigantic maps, as you say, just don't work in Starcraft II. Thats the single most common problem with the user created maps, they're all 156x156+. In the beginning, people harmoniously agreed that we needed big maps because Zerg died too easily on small maps. Now, after we've past that, we realize its not the case.
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Large maps are fine, if there's a reason that they're large. This one just doesn't feel that way.
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Well in brood war units spread out very widely in a natural way, it was very easy to split the map with a huge wall of 15-20 siege tanks, along with enough army for drops and skirmishes to boot. In SC2 a maxed out TvT splitting even a tiny map like Delta Quadrant looks pathetically small in comparison. Really the only way to make positional warfare work in SC2 is to have lots of small chokes and abilities to flank, when you consider the insane clumping ability of armies.
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Nice effect with the ice. That's a tough one to pull off. The setup looks good too. It seems like some big games can happen on this map. Kudos!
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Oh, and it takes 2 tumors. Tumors have to be built on creep
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On January 02 2011 14:51 iGrok wrote:Oh, and it takes 2 tumors. Tumors have to be built on creep
It looks like you can place a single creep tumor down from where your natural hatchery is, and that would be enough to connect the 2 bases.
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Ah, I see what you mean. It looked like that one was place past the edge of the hatch creep
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On January 02 2011 14:38 iGrok wrote:
Large maps are fine, if there's a reason that they're large. This one just doesn't feel that way.
Until Terrans figure out how to deal with high economy Zerg play without crucial early/midgame timings, Zergs have a distinct advantage on maps with large distances. Zerg can leave a unit near the exit of your base and when it sees an army move out, a single injection round of units can pump out enough roaches to smash any early timings, keeping the Zerg's economy intact - Exactly what Terrans seem to need to do in order not to get steamrolled in the lategame. The same note (although to a lesser extent) can be said for ZvP thanks to things like warp gates and forward pylons eliminating the distance, making pressure possible.
At the moment, I don't believe that large maps work in SC2. The game simply isn't being balanced for it. Until the metagame evolves to the point where standard play is versatile enough to make larger maps viably balanced or the game is patched towards it, it's just something we'll have to live with.
That said, I agree with monitor's points. If the map was shrunk a bit I think it has some potential but as it stands it's a bit too big.
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First of all, I've now uploaded version 0.2 to EU!
It does not contain any cosmetic changes.
Changes:
- Fixed so the main mineral line cannot be sieged from the natural (forces Zerg to use two tumours to connect main and natural, instead of one)
- Made the main a tiny bit bigger
- Reduced the cliff close to the bridge a small bit, to make it harder to mass lots of ranged units there to defend the bridge
Let me address some of your concerns here:
Map Size:
The playable size of the map is not so large as I've rotated the map approximately 45 degrees, making for a lot of free space in the corners (can make islands, but I don't think that is a good idea currently).
So the "ground-playable size" is something in between 120 and 130, I think, considering division by sqrt(2), if I don't count the third expansions.
Also: Rush distances are short, between 115 and 144 (cross), so it is somewhere around lost temple when it comes to rush distances.
Main Size
This might be because I am mainly a Zerg player, but I don't think it is so small.
Here is a comparison with an example terran main (note the new position of the minerals to avoid siege tanks from natural):
+ Show Spoiler [Example terran main] +
Also, the cliff on the edge opposite the main ramp is not proxyable (but reapers can still jump):
+ Show Spoiler [Non-proxyable reaper cliff] +Note height changes, so the protoss can only warp in on a level one lower than the main, making them unable to move into the main Maybe open the image in a new tab/window to see the whole image
Bridge entrance:
Made it a bit harder to get many ranged units to cover the whole bridge, now only two siege tanks cover the whole choke with while the others only cover parts of it.
So it still requires some meat shield (and good unit positioning) to pass, but it is easier.
Watchtowers:
The watchtowers does not look into the main or natural, they cover some area below the ramp of the natural and also the bridge. The closest watchtower does not cover your own natural-ramp, so you have to move out to be able to get a watch tower which is covering that area.
+ Show Spoiler [Watchtower coverage] +
On January 02 2011 14:06 Geovu wrote:
High-ground above minerals? That sounds like instant pain vs banshees and tanks z0mg not to mention I WANT those pesky overlords to DIE screw built in overlord positions. Also I don't like the corners having tons of empty space as that makes base racing a terran a sad affair (Personal preference).I have a feeling that there is a zerg bias in your map just from between your presentation and how ridiculously safe the 3rd looks (Not that I don't like the sound of that after playing so many games on Xel Naga Metal and BS sands).
On a positive note: OMGSNOWPRETTY
How did you know I play Zerg? 
On another note, Lost Temple has a ledge like that, for both natural and main (this map only has it for the naturals), and it is also closer to the minerals on both positions compared to this.
You will still have a lot of time to kill those "bags of floating meat", provided they don't sneak around to the resting spot.
Aesthetics:
Still working on that one
To avoid making this map zerg favored, I am thinking about adding more chokes to the area just outside the natural (between the watchtower, small pond/crack in the ice and natural ramp) and also about either narrowing the choke to the 3rd or moving the 3rd closer a tiny bit.
What do you think?
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
The size seems fine, only concern i would point out is the placement of the 3rds. They are in my opinion a bit to far pushed out from the center.
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Took some time and added more doodads and also an additional texture (had one space "free" in my custom tileset).
So, I've updated this map to version 0.3!
Changes:
- Made it easier to tank/thor/marine/marauder/whatever-drop the third and fourth by increasing the cliff size of the cliff next to the natural (this also makes it easier to siege drop the natural's geyser).
- Narrowed the choke to the 3rd and 4rth expansions
- Narrowed the chokes between the watchtowers (ie. the "cracks" in the ice are now wider)
- Added a lot of more doodads
- Fixed all the cliff seams with Gap Fillers
- More texturing
+ Show Spoiler [Drop on 3rd] +It is a lot easier to take out a base without losing anything as the ledge is larger ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e4EUA.jpg)
The positional balance is pretty good, I think, as (according to the analyzer) the total influence only varies +-3 percent between positions.
Still not sure about racial balance though, so any feedback on that will be great!
Also, another question: Which way is the best of filling space? I mean so the space looks occupied even tough there aren't much there (doodads/terrain).
(Need it for the corners of the map)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TaOnc.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KUC2U.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/570Dc.jpg)
