|
I'm a ~750 diamond zerg player (rum.858) I'm not that good, but I play a lot.
I was getting tired of losing to five rax reaper which has become very popular at 800ish diamond so I decided to start getting creative and ran into something that has worked for me. I know that if my micro was better it wouldn't be necessary, but I think a lot of players might benefit from this method.
Also, even if you are much better plaer and are able to take your FE against early reaper without many losses, this is a way that can reduce the risk further without much of a downside.
The build is 14 hatch 14 pool with my hatch inside my main. I drop one spinecrawler the instant my pool finishes, make two queens and then pump out 10 or so roaches.
Since I only have one base the reapers never deal any damage... they might get a queen if they get lucky. I also get to use the extra queen to start spreading creep really fast, because with roaches I don't quite need two spit cycles yet.
After I get a good roach count I start pumping lings, I get like 40 or 50 of them. By the time he pushes with his marauders I have enough to destroy his push very economically. By this time the Terran generally goes into turtle mode. I make 6 to 8 mutalisks to harass and pin him in, then I tech up to broodlords and crack him.
here is a replay. I wish I had one that makes me look better, I kind of fall apart towards the end. This isn't a 5 rax reaper but a 3 rax reaper. He got starports and went for banshees after his push failed... but if you'll notice my army when he pushes I would have easily defended a five rax too.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/76952-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
edit:
another replay showing the build on steps of war, a lot cleaner build this time.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/77467-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war
|
I don't agree with most of your post, but the idea of 2 hatch 1 base is intriguing. Sticking on one base as zerg is very scary though, but i imagine at lower levels its easier to get away due to poor macro in those leagues. Maybe a more refined post explaining WHY you can defend certain builds and follow ups will get me convinced.
|
well, I find that the main problem of 1 basing is not having enough larva to both drone and defend. The advantage of a hatch at an expo and not inside your base is increased income, but until you have more than 30 drones, the extra expansion isn't actually giving you more income it's just making it easier for you to be harassed.
One might argue that the gas is important, but there is no way to safely get more than six drones on gas that early without removing to much mineral income. If you watch the replay, you will notice that I take my natural at a relatively normal time. I'm not talking about one base play here, I'm talking about delaying the expo and using an in base hatch to let you drone/d up faster.
Also, once your expansion does pop up, it takes two spit cycles to completely saturate it because you are producing 12 larva a cycle with 3 hatches. This isn't including the natural larva you can get if you empty the larva in-between spits.
You don't really need a third until you are about to mine out your main unless you want to be on 5 or 6 gas for some (super heavy muta play?) I find with two base and 12 drones in gas after defeating a mid-game push is more than enough to get a sizable tier 3 army.
---
I mention this specifically for use against a Terran. I also use it against Protoss, but I haven't been incredibly successful with it yet. Good Protoss beat me up pretty hard right now.
|
The whole point of 5 rax reaper is to punish zerg for expoing or to delay his expo. If you didn't expo early enough the build has pretty much done it's job. Also I probably won't blindly go 5 rax reaper if you didn't expo that early, I'd save some $$ instead of building the 4-5 rax and make an early cc since I have you contained. From here on you can go muta or bane/roach/ling but either way they're pretty hard vs a turtling terran. One base muta is also risky and since you already went some roaches you won't have much in way of gas.
|
err, you being on one base makes the reapers worth it without even killing anything.
you are "countering" this as hard as you can. A good build against this is not extreme, it retains its economic power and objective. what you suggest only keeps you alive NOW, and cripples you later.
|
if you watch the replay you will notice that what you guys are saying is exactly what happened. he stopped at 3 rax instead of 5 and fast expanded himself. I wasn't hurting mid-game because with the extra hatchery in my base I can saturate my expansion twice as fast so the effect on my income entering the mid-game is virtually nil, plus I have a third hatch for more larva.
|
i feel like if you can spread out your creeps well, lay down 1-2 spinecrawler at your natural and get metabolic boost fast, and have your overlords on the cliff side where reapers come, you can defend really well against it, since lings with upgrade are faster than reapers, and MUCH faster on creeps its really easy to defend, and followed by a fast transition into muta its usually gg for the terran
|
most of the korean zerg replays I see include an extra hatch in the main or in the natural. I think this is just one of those things US Zerg players need to do more often.
|
On September 10 2010 12:34 EnderCN wrote:
most of the korean zerg replays I see include an extra hatch in the main or in the natural. I think this is just one of those things US Zerg players need to do more often.
This, I to have notice many koreon zerg having and extra hatch in their main, Zerg minerals stack up very fast once you get saturated. Extra Larva never hurt anyone.
The op makes a strong point, you cant really fully saturate both your main and expo until at least mid game. So eco wise your at no real advantage by FE until mid game. You will take your expo around the same time a terran or toss would, your just not FE.
|
On September 10 2010 11:27 Rumtifoo wrote:
I drop one spinecrawler the instant my pool finishes, make two queens and then pump out 10 or so roaches.
After I get a good roach count I start pumping lings, I get like 40 or 50 of them. By the time he pushes with his marauders I have enough to destroy his push very economically
How can you say that an economic way to stop it if you are making a super early spine, 10 roaches and 50 lings. Any good terran that sees the in base hatch and the spine will make a bunker and expo with marauders or just stay one base and kill your army when they have enough.
I think little roach numbers with a spine in the front deals pretty good with reapers, the problem with them is when you are off creep and they can kite your roaches, if you have a spine (maybe 2 depending on the map) in your natural, everytime they come close they are hurt and also u can kill almost everyone of them if they try to kill the spine as your roaches will hit them. If they go up a clif you have 3 roaches there waiting.
The problem itself is that early ling speed + roaches is too expensive, i have found that 14 hatch 13 pool 16 gas can deal with normal reaper timing (no vs 8 rax or 9 rax depending the map) as you can get your roach warren instead of the first queen because you have enough larvae with your 2 hatcheries, if you see the 5 rax you add the spine in the front and then tech to speed, roaches in few numbers are super good vs few reapers, the problem comes when you are facing 8+ reapers and by that time you should have already your spine up.
|
I actually like this idea a lot, I will toy with it. The FE really does serve no purpose but spread a zerg that is easy harass out further.
1 base zerg is really bad because of lack of larva issues.
With this I can get 2 queens quickly, and have plenty of larva to spend. You can hold off an early pressure with speedlings and expand to the natural once the 1st base is saturated, and saturate the expo really fast.
You can take advantage of roaches having some range and guard the ramp from early pressure as well instead of fighting out in the open at the natural, or if you dont get roaches and decide to use mass lings for defense you can let the units up the ramp, keeping lings off to the side for an easy surround.
Played a couple of games vs toss and it also worked well.
I will be playing this as my standard opener for awhile and see how it does. I am not feeling like I am losing much in the early game because by the time 1st base saturation comes into play I can safely get the expo, and I take much less damage from any form of early aggression.
|
thanks for being open minded Seide, let me know how it goes.
|
Bout to watch the replay. My pre-viewing question is how in the world do you stop him from just expanding and outmacroing you in the mid game?
Edit: And for what its worth, most one base plays generally fend off reapers with ease. Its that mid game transition AFTER the reapers that's so killer.
|
|
|
madfrog is such a bad example to use. He is not known for his macro, in fact I don't know any 1 game where I didn't see his minerals go over 1k+
|
On September 10 2010 14:15 MrBitter wrote:
Bout to watch the replay. My pre-viewing question is how in the world do you stop him from just expanding and outmacroing you in the mid game?
Edit: And for what its worth, most one base plays generally fend off reapers with ease. Its that mid game transition AFTER the reapers that's so killer.
Basic concept of this strat is:
1. Zerg has trouble with 1 base partly (I think mostly) due to lack of larvae
2. Getting a hatch at the natural doesn't help too much because my main saturated yet.
3. Getting a hatch at natural spreads zerg out and opens you up for easy early game aggression.
This solves 1 by getting that 2nd hatch for larvae production. Solves 2 and 3 by staying compact.
Its not like you play "turtle up in here" all game. You will still expand to that natural as soon as you feel it is safe.
Yes it is more delayed than a expo hatch at ~21 like the regular speedling opening does, but it keeps you much safer from 2 gate agression, reapers, and honestly helions.
If you spread tumors, by the time its time to take the natural you have creep down there so you can defend both bases easier. And thanks to your 2 hatches with queens in your main you can very quickly and safely get the expo up and saturated. Because of how quick you can saturate every following expo, outmacroing you is pretty difficult.
If the opponent does go for early expo, you have enough economy and larva to pump either roaches or speedlings and be aggressive, making that move dangerous for your opponent.
|
This strat leaves zerg very weak when they bust out to secure that nat. At this point, what's stopping terran from expoing himself and doing a push with stimmed marauders and marines? Zerg army < terran army on same income
|
One basing to negate as much power of the Reaper harass is a sound idea, the only problem is you must expand very rapidly (even a double expand perhaps at high-level play) to catch up the Terran economy (assuming they expand while they harass like any good player should).
|
On September 10 2010 14:37 remio wrote:
This strat leaves zerg very weak when they bust out to secure that nat. At this point, what's stopping terran from expoing himself and doing a push with stimmed marauders and marines? Zerg army < terran army on same income
3 Rax Stim timing push use to be one of my fave strats against zerg when I played terran
A stim timing push comes before or close to the same time as the natural expo comes into play. The hatchery is already up but, there are not nearly enough drones mining it for it to be worth anything.
Most of the time I just got a free hatch kill out of it, reinforced and then pushed the main.
Correct me if I am wrong, I am no BW zerg expert:
I believe in BW, Zerg was not limited by their income, but was limited by their hatcheries. But in BW 12 hatch at natural was actually possible due to bigger maps. When did the extra income from the nat come into play vs just saturating the main, then expoing to the nat?
|
IMO for zerg, when you go midgame you need quite a bit of gas to get the upgrades, I'm not sure if 2 gas transitioning to a late 4 is going to cut it ? A mutalisk play is certainly risky off 1 base, that leaves you with roach/hydra, but you need all those upgrades. Banelings cost a ton of gas too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
