• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:48
CEST 01:48
KST 08:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak12DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview19herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025)17Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, GuMiho, Classic, Cure6Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho4
Community News
[BSL20] RO20 Group Stage0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)7Weekly Cups (May 12-18): Clem sweeps WardiTV May3Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results212025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers)14
StarCraft 2
General
herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025) DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview Power Rank: October 2018 Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho
Tourneys
DreamHack Dallas 2025 Last Chance Qualifiers for OlimoLeague 2024 Winter $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion [ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak Cwal.gg not working BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Artosis baned on twitch ?
Tourneys
[BSL20] RO20 Group C - Saturday 20:00 CET [ASL19] Semifinal B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] RO20 Group Stage
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Grand Theft Auto VI
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
RECOVERING HACKING SERVICE FOR LOST BITCOIN VISIT The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Yes Sir! How Commanding Impr…
TrAiDoS
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11331 users

[D] Building Structure Balance

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
July 22 2010 05:13 GMT
#1
I did this a while ago, but never had the chance to post it. I've since uninstalled Starcraft 2, and am unable to add more pictures.

Sorry if my writing is subpar and you do not understand anything. It's late and it's summer. Tell me and I'll clear the section up.


One thing I've noticed while playing Starcraft 2 is how pretty the buildings look. Especially while they are being made. Each race is unique and it's also reflected in their building construction. But while I was busy admiring the buildings, I noticed something very strange.

Sometimes, when you are scouting, your worker is killed off the second he scouts an important building. Of course, that building is left in the fog of war and unless it's completely, you cannot possibly know what it is. But are you sure?



Problem 1 - Construction Phases

All races have four building times. Phase 1 lasts from 0-33%, Phase 2 lasts from 33-66%, Phase 3 lasts from 66-99%, and Phase 4 lasts from 99-100%.

Terran Example
Phase 1
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Phase 2
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Phase 3
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



Phase 1, 2, and 3 are construction phases, which is very clear. Phase 4 is the activation stage. For example, the gateway that you created lights up very quickly in that duration before you can begin building. Similarly, the Zerg building explodes from its shell, and the Terran construction site disappears.

As you can see, the building itself is clearly shown during the third phase. Every single Terran building reveals itself in the construction during the third phase. None of the other races' building animations show their true structure until the fourth phase.

That is showing the building at least 10 seconds before it is actually built.


Problem 2 - Structure Sizes

Only one random building is 1x1, the Sensor Tower.
Unimportant buildings, such as Supply Depots and Pylons, are all 2x2
Important buildings, such as unit or technology buildings, are all 3x3.
Or not.

The Spire is 2x2. So is the Dark Shrine. Why?

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
It is slightly less noticeable, but still definitive to a trained eye.


That is the Spire beside an Evolution Chamber on the same building Phase. Do you see how easily you can spot out the Spire from the other technology buildings while it is still building? You look for the 2x2 building and the only one, other than defensive structures.


Problem 3 - Construction Differences

Many buildings have unique construction appearances. The Missile Turret, for example, is built a circle instead of a square. So although it covers a 2x2 box, it has barely a 1 unit diameter. The rest of the Terran buildings are built exactly the same. This cannot be said for Protoss nor Zerg.

For Protoss, one important building is completely different, the Dark Shrine.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


That is the Shrine beside a Pylon, same building Phase. Unless you're colour blind, you should see a definite difference. The rest of the Shrine building animation is the same as the other buildings. But it is a bit smaller than the rest of the buildings, and different colours from the Pylon.



You should not be able to see through the fog of war. That is what the fog of war is. You see what you already should know. If the building is under construction, you should not be able to see what it is through the fog.

Sometimes, you click a building too late, and it is already in the fog of war, and you have no information on it.
Sometimes, you don't click on a constructing building, and fall to the fog of war, never able to know what the building is.

Unless that building is in Phase 3, and your opponent is Terran.
Unless that building is much smaller than your typical Zerg building under construction.
Unless that building is much smaller, and a different colour than your regular Protoss buildings under construction.

These are small balance issues. But they are balance issues, and can be abused.

I can imagine someone trying to poke in on a walled off ramp. The second they get to the high ground, and gain vision, they are sniped, but not before placing a building under construction. If that building happens to be Terran in Phase 3, the poke was successful, even though the player did not click the building to see it, he can determine from its picture in the fog of war.

These are aesthetics, yes. Each race is unique and special, and should have different feels to them. But that wouldn't explain away the different size for the Spire and for the Dark Shrine. On the argument about Stargates and their animation, someone argued quite well that although it was such a small design flaw, and even though it was a great race mechanic, it still hindered Protoss no matter how pleasing it looks.

This may be not as huge a deal, in terms of the possibility for it to occur, but if it can go wrong, it will.

Should this be fixed? is the question.
There is no one like you in the universe.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 22 2010 05:15 GMT
#2
Shouldn't be fixed imo. Same deal with Protoss Air units in stargate. If you're good enough, you'll be able to click it fast enough anyway.
moopie
Profile Joined July 2009
12605 Posts
July 22 2010 05:16 GMT
#3
Considering that you can click on a building and see what it is, its really not an issue. If you don't, and it was building and now you don't know, work on your scouting skills. The three races are seperate in their mechanics, simply consider this another one.
I'm going to sleep, let me get some of that carpet.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
July 22 2010 05:16 GMT
#4
Only potential fix imo would be Dark Shrine.

There's nothing wrong with them knowing it's a spire by seeing it's a smaller building. That's simply the size of the building. I fail to see any reason why all tech buildings should be of equal size, etc.

Not an issue whatsoever, imo, except for once again maybe the Dark Shrine.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
July 22 2010 05:16 GMT
#5
Wierd I read this whole post and not one mention of the assimilator.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
FC.Strike
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States621 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 05:19:55
July 22 2010 05:17 GMT
#6
Interesting. I didn't really realize that there were stages to construction (I mean I did, but I didn't really think about it)

I'm adding this to my mechanics compilation thread which you can find right here on Team Liquid.
--------------------------> My Smiley Face Disagrees, Your Argument is Invalid -------------------------->
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 05:19:04
July 22 2010 05:18 GMT
#7
Three different races battling in the space.
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
Leeoku
Profile Joined May 2010
1617 Posts
July 22 2010 05:21 GMT
#8
while this is all true and such im pretty sure by experience people can guess what buildings/click on em
SC2Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2814 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 05:24:15
July 22 2010 05:23 GMT
#9
I would rather not have everything 3x3 and all the same looking all the time. Thats way to bland for my liking and everyone clicks on buildings to check them so their isn't really a balance problem
Who the fuck has a family of fucking trees? This song is so god damn stupid. Fuck you song, fuck you and your stupid trees. -itmeJP
Sylvr
Profile Joined May 2010
United States524 Posts
July 22 2010 05:36 GMT
#10
Interesting read. I think you may have increased my scouting skill by a point.

It would be uncharacteristic of me not to point out the redundancy of the title of the thread though.
Medzo
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States627 Posts
July 22 2010 05:53 GMT
#11
Read your whole post and it is pretty informative of a lot of scouting mechanics players should pick up on. However as far as I know this is not a balance issue and to me it seems intended. Both zerg and protoss have different weaknesses in hiding tech and in scouting. If you hadn't noticed, zerg has the best scouts but is the easiest to scout (creep/no walling/obvious tier progression [hatch/lair/hive], can see units being morphed in). Protoss can hide things around the map but it requires a pylon to be placed down first. You can also see what is being warped in and what is being chronoboosted. With terran you can see the building easier graphically but you can also place buildings anywhere and wall off your base. Also some buildings light up and have different animations when there is something being built or researched.
Lane
Profile Joined July 2010
United States46 Posts
July 22 2010 06:39 GMT
#12
I think it adds to the diversity of the game. Not only is it unnecessary to "fix" it, I think it's a nice thing to have.
Stimpk
Profile Joined July 2010
France165 Posts
August 02 2010 12:27 GMT
#13
I'm not sure this will change a whole game :/
Glacius0
Profile Joined July 2010
Netherlands66 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-02 12:40:28
August 02 2010 12:39 GMT
#14
Definitely intended. Definitely should stay. They added more building animations (when an upgrade is being researched etc) in the big patch (the one that had achievements) during beta. These are all intended for people with good knowledge of the game to have an advantage. And even with the picture you showed me I'll still have trouble separating a pylon from a DT shrine. Which one is which btw?
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Road to EWC
15:00
DreamHack Dallas Group Stage
ewc_black1998
SteadfastSC644
CranKy Ducklings293
EnkiAlexander 96
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SteadfastSC 644
RuFF_SC2 114
Livibee 107
UpATreeSC 58
EnDerr 7
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 7445
MaD[AoV]52
NaDa 22
Icarus 4
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm119
League of Legends
JimRising 268
Counter-Strike
fl0m3792
Stewie2K530
flusha194
kRYSTAL_16
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox441
C9.Mang0217
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor158
Other Games
tarik_tv15112
summit1g13655
gofns12306
FrodaN3245
Grubby2242
shahzam445
ViBE197
KnowMe54
JuggernautJason10
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick579
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 36
• davetesta30
• RyuSc2 17
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 26
• blackmanpl 19
• Azhi_Dahaki12
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler58
League of Legends
• Doublelift8266
• TFBlade1188
Other Games
• imaqtpie1223
• Scarra1203
• Shiphtur148
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
10h 12m
SC Evo League
12h 12m
Road to EWC
15h 12m
BSL Season 20
18h 12m
Dewalt vs TT1
UltrA vs HBO
WolFix vs TBD
Afreeca Starleague
1d 5h
BeSt vs Soulkey
Road to EWC
1d 14h
Wardi Open
2 days
SOOP
3 days
NightMare vs Wayne
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
GSL Code S
4 days
Cure vs Zoun
Solar vs Creator
The PondCast
4 days
Online Event
4 days
Clem vs ShoWTimE
herO vs MaxPax
GSL Code S
5 days
GuMiho vs Bunny
ByuN vs SHIN
Online Event
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-16
2025 GSL S1
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Heroes 10 EU
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

Rose Open S1
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.