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Intro
So with beta down, lots of us are spending our free time making maps. I was wondering what features are considered bad for balance, good for balance, or interesting and not yet explored in melee maps (specifically 1v1 maps). Please feel free to post other things I haven't thought of and ill add polls. This thread is in response to What Makes a Map Balanced? thread. I figured getting polls up would help get an overall feel for what the community thinks is balanced or favors one race. This is in an effort to help players make balanced tournament worthy maps we can be proud of for years to come.
Please refrain from voting if you do not have expierience with a particular feature (eg. island mains)
Things We've seen already:
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Long bridges- racially imbalanced?Favors Terran (29) 85% Favors Protoss (3) 9% Favors Zerg (1) 3% Does not affect race matchups. (1) 3% 34 total votes Your vote: Long bridges- racially imbalanced? (Vote): Favors Terran
(Vote): Favors Zerg
(Vote): Favors Protoss
(Vote): Does not affect race matchups.
Poll: Wide RampsFavors Zerg (27) 73% Does not affect race matchups. (8) 22% Favors Protoss (2) 5% Favors Terran (0) 0% 37 total votes Your vote: Wide Ramps (Vote): Favors Terran
(Vote): Favors Zerg
(Vote): Favors Protoss
(Vote): Does not affect race matchups.
Poll: Island ExposFavors Terran (17) 45% Does not affect race matchups. (15) 39% Favors Zerg (5) 13% Favors Protoss (1) 3% 38 total votes Your vote: Island Expos (Vote): Favors Terran
(Vote): Favors Zerg
(Vote): Favors Protoss
(Vote): Does not affect race matchups.
Poll: Unblocked cliffs (think desert oasis)Does not affect race matchups. (15) 60% Favors Terran (6) 24% Favors Protoss (4) 16% Favors Zerg (0) 0% 25 total votes Your vote: Unblocked cliffs (think desert oasis) (Vote): Favors Terran
(Vote): Favors Zerg
(Vote): Favors Protoss
(Vote): Does not affect race matchups.
Poll: Backdoor RocksDoes not affect race matchups. (15) 41% Favors Zerg (12) 32% Favors Protoss (10) 27% Favors Terran (0) 0% 37 total votes Your vote: Backdoor Rocks (Vote): Favors Terran
(Vote): Favors Zerg
(Vote): Favors Protoss
(Vote): Does not affect race matchups.
Poll: LOS blockers in mian(think metalop)Does not affect race matchups. (22) 63% Favors Protoss (11) 31% Favors Terran (1) 3% Favors Zerg (1) 3% 35 total votes Your vote: LOS blockers in mian(think metalop) (Vote): Favors Terran
(Vote): Favors Zerg
(Vote): Favors Protoss
(Vote): Does not affect race matchups.
Poll: Neutral Units blocking paths/xposDoes not belong in tournament matches. (19) 58% Does not affect race matchups. (13) 39% Favors Zerg (1) 3% Favors Terran (0) 0% Favors Protoss (0) 0% 33 total votes Your vote: Neutral Units blocking paths/xpos (Vote): Favors Terran
(Vote): Favors Zerg
(Vote): Favors Protoss
(Vote): Does not affect race matchups.
(Vote): Does not belong in tournament matches.
Poll: Low Ground mains?Does not affect race matchups. (14) 56% Favors Terran (8) 32% Favors Protoss (3) 12% Favors Zerg (0) 0% 25 total votes Your vote: Low Ground mains? (Vote): Favors Terran
(Vote): Favors Zerg
(Vote): Favors Protoss
(Vote): Does not affect race matchups.
Things I expect to see soon:
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Natural inside mainFavors Terran (17) 46% Favors Zerg (10) 27% Does not affect race matchups. (6) 16% Favors Protoss (4) 11% 37 total votes Your vote: Natural inside main (Vote): Favors Terran
(Vote): Favors Zerg
(Vote): Favors Protoss
(Vote): Does not affect race matchups.
Poll: High Yield Gas exposFavors Zerg (12) 40% Does not affect race matchups. (12) 40% Favors Protoss (4) 13% Favors Terran (2) 7% 30 total votes Your vote: High Yield Gas expos (Vote): Favors Terran
(Vote): Favors Zerg
(Vote): Favors Protoss
(Vote): Does not affect race matchups.
Poll: Island MainsFavors Terran (20) 67% Does not affect race matchups. (5) 17% Favors Zerg (4) 13% Favors Protoss (1) 3% 30 total votes Your vote: Island Mains (Vote): Favors Terran
(Vote): Favors Zerg
(Vote): Favors Protoss
(Vote): Does not affect race matchups.
Corollary Polls:
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Bridges / Narrow ChokesDisfavors Zerg (15) 83% Balanced for all three races. (2) 11% Disfavors Protoss (1) 6% Disfavors Terran (0) 0% Disfavors Zerg and Protoss (0) 0% Disfavors Zerg and Terran (0) 0% Disfavors Protoss and Terran (0) 0% 18 total votes Your vote: Bridges / Narrow Chokes (Vote): Disfavors Zerg
(Vote): Disfavors Protoss
(Vote): Disfavors Terran
(Vote): Disfavors Zerg and Protoss
(Vote): Disfavors Zerg and Terran
(Vote): Disfavors Protoss and Terran
(Vote): Balanced for all three races.
Poll: Island ExposBalanced for all three races. (7) 50% Disfavors Zerg and Protoss (6) 43% Disfavors Protoss (1) 7% Disfavors Zerg (0) 0% Disfavors Terran (0) 0% Disfavors Zerg and Terran (0) 0% Disfavors Protoss and Terran (0) 0% 14 total votes Your vote: Island Expos (Vote): Disfavors Zerg
(Vote): Disfavors Protoss
(Vote): Disfavors Terran
(Vote): Disfavors Zerg and Protoss
(Vote): Disfavors Zerg and Terran
(Vote): Disfavors Protoss and Terran
(Vote): Balanced for all three races.
Poll: Wide RampsDisfavors Terran (6) 50% Balanced for all three races. (5) 42% Disfavors Protoss and Terran (1) 8% Disfavors Zerg (0) 0% Disfavors Protoss (0) 0% Disfavors Zerg and Protoss (0) 0% Disfavors Zerg and Terran (0) 0% 12 total votes Your vote: Wide Ramps (Vote): Disfavors Zerg
(Vote): Disfavors Protoss
(Vote): Disfavors Terran
(Vote): Disfavors Zerg and Protoss
(Vote): Disfavors Zerg and Terran
(Vote): Disfavors Protoss and Terran
(Vote): Balanced for all three races.
(more coming... these are alot of work!)
In addition; feel free to post your maps for critique here.
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Thank you for putting up the polls, should provide an interesting range of data...or at least how it is people see certain things. I personally think long bridges favor terran as long as there is not a close flanking option... The bridge works well for terran until they need to cross it.
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Another thing to add: Reverse ramp mains.
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I voted un-biased of course but I think some people are going to do otherwise. :x
Anyway, I like this post, it can be a very good reference for people. Hopefully now people who don't know better will look at this and take majority in to mind and if there are things that cause imbalance for one race they will off set that with something to boost the opposing races.
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On July 02 2010 00:08 Barrin wrote:I have actually thought about making my own thread like this, far more in-depth. I mentioned it in both the link in your post and like a week ago in a thread where you propose such ideas. Quoting myself from the thread you linked to: Show nested quote +I have actually been thinking about this a LOT recently. The more I think about it, the less I think that we as the playerbase have actually evolved enough in our play to really understand the deeper things in later game strategy. I think that threads like these might actually throttle the potential and creativity of mapmakers. I really think that mapmakers should just go crazy with all sorts of ideas until like a year from now when everyone really knows what's what. (Not that everyone will really know whats what in a year. But I expect massive improvements. I don't think everyone was an expert on such subjects a year after SC1 came out :D)
If you want to update the thread to make it more in depth- feel free to PM me any updates you want to make and I would happily update the OP.
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I don't like these polls. There should be options for (disfavors zerg or disfavors all or favors X and Y races). I don't want a wide ramp no matter what race I am. I think tight bridges are just anti zerg (good for T and P). And where is the ''I'm not sure'' options?
Has anyone even played straight island maps yet?
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Ooh i like that idea charlie... Except for the im not sure options. If your not sure.. dont vote?
I think you can imply the "dosent favor" option by looking at which race got the least "favors" votes.. but I think the change does make sense. If i can figure out how to do it...
EDIT: Corallary polls are going up in the OP with additional options. No reason not to get both sides.
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On July 02 2010 00:34 Zoltan wrote:
Ooh i like that idea charlie... Except for the im not sure options. If your not sure.. dont vote?
I think you can imply the "dosent favor" option by looking at which race got the least "favors" votes.. but I think the change does make sense. If i can figure out how to do it...
EDIT: Corallary polls are going up in the OP with additional options. No reason not to get both sides.
well, the reason for the 'undecided' vote just says that you get more data on the issue. Like with island only maps, people are just going to theory craft a vote here or not vote at all. It's better to have the undecided vote.
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On July 02 2010 00:38 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 00:34 Zoltan wrote:
Ooh i like that idea charlie... Except for the im not sure options. If your not sure.. dont vote?
I think you can imply the "dosent favor" option by looking at which race got the least "favors" votes.. but I think the change does make sense. If i can figure out how to do it...
EDIT: Corallary polls are going up in the OP with additional options. No reason not to get both sides. well, the reason for the 'undecided' vote just says that you get more data on the issue. Like with island only maps, people are just going to theory craft a vote here or not vote at all. It's better to have the undecided vote.
Well ill compromise- ill put in the op to not vote if you have no expierence on the matter.
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Lol, it's funny how majority of votes for almost all the polls favour Terran. xD
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On July 01 2010 22:30 farseer_dk wrote:
Another thing to add: Reverse ramp mains.
God I really am not used to playing on maps like that - not even in BW.
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I just want to comment on the long bridge/narrow choke ideas. I'm all for these as a feature in a map in the right conditions because any race can set up a contain at the end of a narrow bridge, not just Terran tanks. Tanks are good at holding down a spot, and yeah, those beasts are better at it when there less approaches to cover. Fine.
If a map's only path from main to main is one long bridge, maybe Terran has a significant advantage when they pop tanks. But what about before then? He can get out and do a concave at his end with marine/marauder just like zealot/stalker and ling/roach can do.
So yeah, have your narrow bridges as a feature, I say.
Oh, and put me down as a half-vote for Barrin's perspective that if we take this kind of discussion too seriously then we'll be slapping down creative map ideas before they can even get play tested and maybe reveal fun-but-balanced play styles.
Still, we should have a basic list, the SC2 mapping canon, with things like "never put a cliff that only reapers can get on early that is in range of the main base's mineral line because this would be stupid-awesome for reapers."
Actually, making a list like that is probably harder than just making maps and using common sense, then putting out for the community to vet it on common sense, too.
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EPT
